God's Elect: This Ends Any Debate

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Everlasting-Grace said:
Please do not insult me, I understand quite well.

You can not claim you are not pumping your chest when you claim you were chosen and your neighbor was not.

Paul said we are saved by Grace period. But through faith not works, lest anyone should boast (He separates our saving faith from works, and claims those who are saved through faith are not of those who boast. it is those who try to be saved by works) )

When God comes and gives me his gospel. and says he wants to save me, Me, in faith, saying "Yes lord I trust you and I want you to apply your death to my soul", is not me saving myself. I do not know who came up with this idea. but it is not from God.
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EG's understanding seems sufficient IMO, but I don't understand why MF thinks this contradicts understanding that "God is Sovereign and has Dominion over his creation." The sovereign God created NOT sovereign humanity with volition per His command in DT 30:19 and Christ's lament in MT 23:37.

So, what's the problem here?
 
GWH said:
EG's understanding seems sufficient IMO, but I don't understand why MF thinks this contradicts understanding that "God is Sovereign and has Dominion over his creation." The sovereign God created NOT sovereign humanity with volition per His command in DT 30:19 and Christ's lament in MT 23:37.

So, what's the problem here?
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deut 30: 19 - 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Matt 23: 37 - 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Amen. A sovereign all powerful God is able to do whatever he wants. If he is the loving God he claims to be, You can not have a relationship apart from those you love having free will. they have to have the ability to chose to recieve your love, or reject it.

Thats why God gave adam that one command. do not eat of the tree.. That gave adam the choice..
 
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MeowFlower said:
Acts 4:24

24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,"
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Acts 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
deut 30: 19 - 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Matt 23: 37 - 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Amen. A sovereign all powerful God is able to do whatever he wants. If he is the loving God he claims to be, You can not have a relationship apart from those you love having free will. they have to have the ability to chose to recieve your love, or reject it.

Thats why God gave adam that one command. do not eat of the tree.. That gave adam the choice..
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And Eve (and NOT an apple tree :^)
 
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@Everlasting-Grace

If you think God chose you but did not chose the person next to you and because God chose you you will go to heaven, and because God did nto chose him he will have no possibility even if he wanted to to go to heaven.

Your pumping your chest.
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I believe that's an false accusation against the poster and anyone else who testifies to Gods Election of Grace. Grace saves ungodly sinners, dead in sin and rebellion against God, there is no occasion to boast. Its unconditional grace in election Rom 11:5--7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
 
brightfame52 said:
@Everlasting-Grace



I believe that's an false accusation against the poster and anyone else who testifies to Gods Election of Grace. Grace saves ungodly sinners, dead in sin and rebellion against God, there is no occasion to boast. Its unconditional grace in election Rom 11:5--7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
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Grace is conditional upon choosing and being willing per:

DT 30: 19 - 19, "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live."

MT 23: 37 - 37, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

The harmonization is to view faith = choosing life = being willing to accept grace as satisfying the condition of repentance, but NOT as works other than in the sense of JN 6:29, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
 
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brightfame52 said:
@Everlasting-Grace



I believe that's an false accusation against the poster and anyone else who testifies to Gods Election of Grace.
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I testify to Gods election of Grace. so I would be falsley accusing myself?
Grace saves ungodly sinners, dead in sin and rebellion against God, there is no occasion to boast. Its unconditional grace in election Rom 11:5--7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
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If God did not offer salvation to all. then you can not call it unconditional.

for it would be conditional on God putting you above others. for whatever reason yuoi think he chose you and put it in your mind to have faith. and withheld the ability of others to even have the possibility of hope and faith.

so you proved the point I made.

I will tell you like I asked him. Stop pumping your chest.. Give it to God. as the tax collector did.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
I testify to Gods election of Grace. so I would be falsley accusing myself?

If God did not offer salvation to all. then you can not call it unconditional.

for it would be conditional on God putting you above others. for whatever reason yuoi think he chose you and put it in your mind to have faith. and withheld the ability of others to even have the possibility of hope and faith.

so you proved the point I made.

I will tell you like I asked him. Stop pumping your chest.. Give it to God. as the tax collector did.
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The reason God would not elect some is because He is not all-loving, which is exactly what atheists claim!
 
brightfame52 said:
@GWH

Grace is conditional upon choosing and being willing per:

DT 30: 19 - 19, "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live."

MT 23: 37 - 37, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

False, that's law the opposite of grace!
You can call the words of Moses and Jesus false if you want, but I don't understand why you reject the harmonization by viewing faith = choosing life = being willing to accept grace as satisfying the condition of repentance, but NOT as works other than in the sense of JN 6:29, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
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@GWH

you can call the words of Moses and Jesus false if you want, but I don't understand why you reject the harmonization by viewing faith = choosing life = being willing to accept grace as satisfying the condition of repentance, but NOT as works other than in the sense of JN 6:29, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
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More law salvation, may God have mercy on u
 
brightfame52 said:
@GWH



More law salvation, may God have mercy on u
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I am confident that He will have mercy on all Christians, but I lack understanding of why you reject the harmonization by viewing faith = choosing life = being willing to accept grace as satisfying the condition of repentance, but NOT as works other than in the sense of JN 6:29, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

How do YOU harmonize your opinion with these Scriptures?:

DT 30: 19 - 19, "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live."

MT 23: 37 - 37, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
 
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GWH said:
I am confident that He will have mercy on all Christians, but I lack understanding of why you reject the harmonization by viewing faith = choosing life = being willing to accept grace as satisfying the condition of repentance, but NOT as works other than in the sense of JN 6:29, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

How do YOU harmonize your opinion with these Scriptures?:

DT 30: 19 - 19, "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live."

MT 23: 37 - 37, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
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he can;t. he is stuck in the calvinist view (although he denies he is a calvinist :rolleyes:)
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
he can;t. he is stuck in the calvinist view (although he denies he is a calvinist :rolleyes:)
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Well, I was raised as a "P" Calvinist (OSAS), but not brainwashed, so hopefully he also will get freed and WORK on harmonizing Scripture., beginning with the Gospel/kerygma:

  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
  2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or DOD (JN 3:18).
  3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.
  4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept/have faith in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
  5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
 
GWH said:
Well, I was raised as a "P" Calvinist (OSAS), but not brainwashed, so hopefully he also will get freed and WORK on harmonizing Scripture., beginning with the Gospel/kerygma:

  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
  2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or DOD (JN 3:18).
  3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.
  4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept/have faith in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
  5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
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remember, OSAS may be a calvinist term, but eternal security is a God thing.

We do not persevere to the end. God keeps us until the end.
 
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