Wouldn't that be you saving your self and denying Jesus died for those sins?
"God loves everyone" - false
- Thread starter DBurrage
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Erm John 6 is when ? has Jesus died for the sins of the world in John 6 ? Has Jesus sent the Holy spirt to seal believers until the day of redemption in John 6 ? who will convict the WORLD Of the sin of not Believing on Jesus?
Why do calvinists miss this gigantic elephant in the room ?
Also John 6 ( psst its before the greatest event that changes everything) simply says they can come if they are drawn , and if they believe, they will be raised up on the last day .
It doesn't say they all believed who were drawn and came. John 6 is a terrible example for Calvinism. Look at what happened to those that came to Jesus then subsequently fled and betrayed him . Perseverance of the saints ? I think not . Stop proof texting out of context Augustine followers.
Umm, context at its best is correct and certainly the Book of Romans were written to the Romans believers, however, you exclude the following verses.
1. All nations. Because the gospel is not only to the Jews but among all nations. (v.4)
2. Throughout the whole world (v.8). the dispensing of the truth
3. The other Gentiles ( v.13)
Plus if this book is written to the to the New Testament church of Rome then likewise, is applicable to us. Also Paul mentioned Gentiles, not exclusively for the Gentile Nation of Rome.
Romans 3:29
King James Version
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
No, it would not. Though we aren't able to obey God satisfactorily until we accept Jesus as Lord (God) and Savior of our lives - still, God requires that those who sincerely want to serve Him - must be willing to "pay the cost" on their part - that is required. And that "cost" involves willingness to do one's best to keep sin out of one's life, and regularly and sincerely - repenting of all sin in our daily lives.
None of us could be saved if we had to be 100% perfectly sinless - that's true, for sure! But salvation is called "a free gift from God" - because God is willing to save them in spite of their sins - if they have accepted Him as Master and lord of their lives.
Here are some verses that indicate the need for full surrender to God, and regular repentance of daily sins;
Heb 6:6
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
KJV
Matt 12:41-42
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
KJV
Heb 12:14-16
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
KJV
Boldness to preach the Gospel comes from certainty and security ,as Paul had . Tempered with that is pressing on to the upward calling . The motivation , joy, purpose , contentment, peace under suffering, striving to reach the lost comes from
Assurance that we cannot be lost . There is no good news without security . The opposite is seen in the cults ,such as Mormonism and the Jehovah's_Witnesses, who are striving to reach people to their cult through fear , because their salvation is based on what they do or don't do .
If we could lose our salvation ,no one would make it .
Okay, I will attempt to answer this in a God honoring way.
First, it should be noted, that this conversation between Jesus and the rich young man, is recorded by three of the Gospel writers. It is not recorded in the book of John. Therefore, we need to compare this verse in all three Gospel accounts:
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Mark 10:21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luke 18:22 And when Jesus heard it, he said unto him, One thing thou lackest yet: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
We know two very distinct things about this young rich man:
1) He was foolish and arrogant. Foolish, because he thought he could gain Salvation by works of the Law. We know that Salvation is not of works and that God's highest standard cannot be kept by fallen men.
2) Arrogant, because this young man believed he had kept all 10 of these commandments: Luke 18:21 And he said, All these things have I observed from my youth up. This statement, not only shows his spiritual ignorance but he proves himself to be self-righteous and arrogant.
Only in Mark's account is there a mention of Jesus "looking upon him, loved him". Therefore, we must ask, why the other two did not record this action by our lord. One thing that can be ascertained, is the Holy Spirit did not inspire the other two to write it down. This could possibly indicate, that it is not a vital piece of information to the point of the conversation. We know, that the point of this conversation, was to prove the young rich man's inability to give up his material possessions, which were great. Thus, he served the god of materialism and not the True God.
In Mark 10:21, Jesus looked upon the young man and loved him, after the young man had declared his foolishness and arrogance. This is a clue, as to how we should understand the statement: "loved him".
Let's look at the Greek word used here and see if we can ascertain how it is used. The Greek word is: ηγαπησεν and comes from the root of the word: ηγαπαω. Mark uses this word: ηγαπησεν, only here in verse 21 and no where else in his Gospel writings. It carries the meaning of a physical or emotional gesture. According to Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, he describes it in this way: to love (as to hug or kiss), to wish well, to show pity towards and to have compassion for. These are all things, that we as Christians, should show towards everyone. In as much as lies in us to do. Therefore, this "love" carries the same idea as: Love thy neighbor as you would have them love you.
The type of love herein, recorded by Mark, should be understood as, Jesus looked upon this young man with compassion and sincere pity, knowing that this young man could not do what Jesus was about to say. For Jesus Christ knows what is in the heart of every one.
The young man had an emotional response to what Jesus said: Mar 10:22, "But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions". Therefore, Jesus had comforted this young man before he announced, what He knew the young man could not do.
The Greek word used here by Mark, could not in this instance, carry the meaning of "enduring and intimate love" because that kind of "LOVE" is only expressed between the Father and The Son, the angels and God (not including the fallen ones), as well as, between God and His chosen people. To put that kind of meaning onto the Greek word in Mark 10:21, would have to mean: That the young rich man is one of the sheep but had not yet been "born from above" and was not yet able to hear and understand what the Lord was saying.
Contemplate this without traditional prejudices.
I think the problem here, is that many do not understand the difference between "Position" and "Condition".
Positionally: One cannot lose there Salvation.
John 10:28-29 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Conditionally, One can fall out of fellowship with the Lord and fellow believers. Thus, the need for Repentance and restoring Grace. Believers can be excommunicated because of a grievous sin, such as in the Corinthian church. This changes their fellowship but not their position in Christ. Once they have repented, then and only then is fellowship restored. (In the human since because fellowship with Christ may or may not have been restored. God knows the heart and cannot be deceived.)
The ability to even repent, is a gift of God. He is the sole provider of the spirit of repentance and I challenge anyone, from Scripture, to prove otherwise.
That sir, is the weirdest and most twisted answer I have ever seen in my 33+ years as a believer. I am not a "calvinist". I only proclaim the Truth of Scripture, which the world hates because it takes away mans glory and places it back to where it belongs, with GOD!
Any interpretation of Scripture, That either glorifies man, are places man's will above God's will, are gives man something to boast about, is serious error. If a man can choose Christ, of his own will, then he can boast. Ex... "I am so glad I chose life through Jesus Christ, unlike the other poor fools, who are still in their sins. I prefer to boast in Christ, my Lord and my God. For He and He alone saved me. Why? I do not know. For if I used human judgement, God should have let me burn in the lake of fire. That is where I truly belonged.
Thats philosophy you are engaging in . The bible says that it pleases God through the preaching of the Gospel to save those that believe .
Your saying " No God , I know you think it pleases you , but I know best . I must tell you God how you should save people "
Firstly could you show the verse that says ' Spirit of repentance ' ?
I do agree with all you said up to " The ability to even repent is a gift of God "
God is the one who said these things, right in the Scriptures. Not I. The fact that you do not agree changes nothing about God's Holy Truth. Remember the old bumper sticker that said: "God said it, I believe it, That settles it." The worst bumper sticker ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God's word is settled, whether anybody believes it or not. Our believing in his Word or even in Him, does not invalidate anything. A person may say they are an "atheist", but God still exists. And according to the great works of Charnock, on "The attributes of God", he proves in about the first 86 pages of volume one, that there are no atheists. This of course agrees with Romans Ch. 1.
So I am not telling God anything nor would I, I am just doing my part to defend Soteriology as taught in Scripture.
Question, you said: The bible says that it pleases God through the preaching of the Gospel to save those that believe . You do realize, that the ones being saved through preaching, are already believing. Check it out, those believing are in the present tense, meaning they are in a state of believing. (position in Christ) and through preaching they are saved from sins, error in doctrine, etc. (Condition). This was especially true in the days of this writing because there were no readily available Bibles are other study medium. Make sense?
Spirit of Repentance is more of a Theological term. Not directly found in Scripture, in this wording. But here is the precept in these verses:
Rom 2:3-4 And are you reckoning this, O man, who is judging them that practice such things, and are doing the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or are you despising the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God is leading you to repentance? Who therefore is leading one to repent?
2Ti 2:24-26 And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing, in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth, and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will. So they cannot recover themselves until God gives them Repentance.
So it is God who grants the gift of Repentance. In this way the person so given, can display the proper spirit (attitude) of Repentance.
Just to be clear and so were not talking past each other . I believe this :
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
And you believe something different?
you don't believe we simply trust in Jesus ,After we hear the Gospel .
You don't believe in whom also after you believed ,you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise ?
You don't believe that is the earnest ( Guarantee) of our inheritance ,until the redemption of the PURCHASED POSSESSION, unto the praise of HIS GLORY ? Rom 8.23 also
You don't believe this ?
So God commands everyone everywhere to repent but withholds this from those he's commanding to repent . Does this not seem suspiciously wrong to you ?
If it is Scripture, properly understood, of course I believe it. But let's look at these two verses in the context that lead up to them:
Eph 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Now let's take the whole thing and see what is really taught here.
Eph 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, (so first of all, believers were chosen by God.), that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (for this is God's purpose for having chosen) Having predestinated us (This was a predetermined act of God for the purpose of), unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of His will (Not man's will but His will and this is about as close as we are ever going to get, as to the why. His good pleasure.), To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (again, he has made us accepted) In whom (Christ), we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, (Not made known to the world but to the Saints) according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (This takes us into the God-Head) That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, (the heavenly none fallen angels and the redeemed chosen from v.4) both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who is working all things after the counsel of his own will: (Again the same language as before, God is the one purposing and doing.) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Trusted, because God made it possible for the Apostles and those who were first.)
Now to verse 13 and 14,
In whom ye also trusted, (The same for the Saints as the Apostles. There is only one way Salvation works. Note here, the verb tense is in the "past tense". They had trusted.) after that ye heard the word of truth (again, in the "past tense", Therefore it was in the ability to hear the word of truth that gave them the understanding and strengthened their trust), the gospel of your salvation: in whom (Christ) also after that ye believed ( Again, a past tense action. Since believing is a prerequisite to having Salvation, this is a necessary component. There are none who were or are or are to come, that God chose and predestinated, who will not believe,) , ye were sealed (Again looking to the "past" and should not be seen as taking place at the point of "believing". Rather the writer here is pointing out the facts of what has taken place. 1) You were chosen, 2) You were predestinated, 3) Because of His good pleasure. (This looks into ETERNITY past (sorry for the time word here)) 4) You were given the ability to hear. (That's a fruit of being "born again".) 5) You were given the Holy Spirit. (Also at the time of being "born again") 6) He lead you into the hearing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 7) You believed at sometime in the past and are in a state of believing now.) with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (The Redemption of the ones purchased, which is equal to the chosen ones. This is where John 6 and 10 also have application, that I spoke of earlier), unto the praise of his glory.
Hopefully, you agree to these things but if not, it does not change what these verses clearly teach. The only way you can make verses thirteen and fourteen mean something else, is to completely ignore what came before.
Does this not seem suspiciously wrong to you ?
You might come to that conclusion from a humanistic way of viewing the Scriptures but I simply take what God said at face value. If man, in his fallen state, lacks the spiritual ability to seek after God, (Remember, Paul clearly said, apart from God's mercy and Grace, "no one is seeking after God, NO NOT ONE.")
Now this doesn't mean that many are not seeking after "a god" but they were not seeking after the God, as described by himself, in Holy Writ. Man wants a god, they just don't want the one of the Bible. Man wants a Savior but they do not want the Jesus Christ of the Bible. So they try to create another god and another savior, with the same name but the wrong attributes. They hide a Gospel of errors, just like the foolish Galatians were starting to do, until Paul corrected them, into the weave of the True Gospel and call it truth. But there can ONLY be ONE TRUTH and it is every believers responsibility to discern it and embrace it. Even though modern religion is teaching more and more that "truth" is subjective and every person can have their own interpretation, this must be seen for what it is, HERESY. Any Subjective view and understanding of Scripture, must be weighed against objective truth revealed, The Bible.
Therefore if you have the proper understanding of Soteriology, then God giving the gift of repentance is easy to understand, since God is the giver of everything in His creation and His Creation RECEIVES what is given. It is time that His creation stops trying to be a god and recognize his proper place in the grand scheme of things. I accept, whole heartedly (In the heart God gave me), that salvation is all of God. I do not kick against it. I rejoice in it. In part because if it were left to me to decide, Scripture says that in my fallen state, there would be nothing that I would want in this Savior. That should sound familiar, for throughout the Gospels, men, in and of themselves, wanted nothing to do with this "Jesus". Religionist, were the absolute worst about wanting nothing to do with this message and this person called Jesus. And for the other part, I do not want the responsibility for "winning over" the souls of anyone. I am content to be a sheep hunter. How horrible it must be, to think that with all of your efforts, you can not win over your loved ones to Christ. They remain rebellious towards God and Jesus Christ. I thank God everyday for the knowledge, which has freed me from this terrible thought process. If my Son or Daughter is one of His, they will come to Christ at the appointed time and nothing can stop them. It is a relief to know that their salvation is in God's hand. And if it turns out that they are not one of the chosen, not one of His sheep, then it was not because of something that I did or didn't do but it was the Sovereign choice of God Almighty and My God does as He pleases.
It is this aspect of Scripture teaching the religionist hate and oh will they get nasty about it. I have found, that non-religionist do not really kick against this teaching, they often find it intellectually interesting but their heart is not in it. But religionist, would just as soon see you burn at the stake.
What if it pleased God to believe the Gospel ? would all that other stuff matter ?
If I am getting the gist of your question, then no. However, it is important that we come to the realization, that we cannot please God without God given faith.
Believing the Gospel, yea believing that Jesus died for sins, and that He was raised, which proved His Father's acceptance of His sacrifice, is all that is truly necessary and God given faith will insure we get there. But if we bring this down to a simple form, thus what the Apostle Paul said:
1Cor 2:1-2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
However, if we continue in this condition after years of being saved, then we would be as the Corinthians, as being still "babes" in Christ. Still sucking on the bottle, when we should have moved on to wholesome, solid food. Right? Every believer, should aspire to grow in Grace and Truth and every believer wants to know of their calling. Correct? We as believers want to know all we can about our Savior and how God accomplished these things that happened unto us and what His plan is for our future. To not care about what is the correct and truthful understanding of Scripture, would not only fail to follow our Lord's instructions, (Ex.... "Study to show thyself approved.". (Not approved before God but to others in the faith.) It would also seem to fly in the face of believers being said to be: "hungering and thirsting" after the truth.
I like an old time example, I came across years ago, that put it this way: On the front door of the Church it said, "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." but after hearing the message inside, as they got ready to leave, upon the exit door it said, "Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world." Therefore, we see that coming to the truth of great Biblical Doctrines is the purpose of preaching, edifying and studying. We witness to find the ones who have seeing eyes and hearing ears but within the assembly or Church, is where the edification of the Saints should be taking place. To many so called churches today, are so interested in evangelism, so they can grow their numbers, that the sheep are starving to death within them. The preachers are not giving their flock "meat" to eat and shame on them. They will be held accountable to God in the end, ie, "loss of reward".
But bwhat that does to the verse is this :1cor1.21 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
I read that as . The world's own wisdom is the opposite to God's. In God's wisdom He chose the foolishness of the preaching to save those that believe, and that pleases Him .
Calvinism twists this to .: The worlds own wisdom , which was determined by God , is the opposite to God's wisdom . In God's wisdom He chose the foolishness of the preaching to cause believe in those he saves . And this pleases him .