God LIED!

[pjharrison]

Sorry to hear.

pjharrison here. I found those verses I was looking for earlier. 1 timothy 1:20 Among these are hymenaeus and alexander, whom I have handed over to satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.
1 cor: 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that he his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

 

[Placid]

Hi Budman,

You said in Post 1, quote: “The Bible says salvation is a gift from God.” (Ephesians 2:8)


Response, ---
Yes, this is part of the familiar passage, --- 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

--- This is often used to assure us that God saves us and keeps us. --- But the next verse starts with ‘for,’ --- and somebody said that when a verse starts with ‘for’ or ‘therefore,’ you should look back and see what it is ‘there for.’ --- It is often dependant on what preceded it.

We can read it like this, 8 “For by (God’s) grace you have been saved through (your) faith, and that (salvation is) not of yourselves (not through your own effort); it is the gift (unmerited favor) of God,
9 not (as a result) of (your) works, lest anyone should boast.

10 For we are His workmanship (prepared workers), created in Christ Jesus (spiritually transformed and ready to be used) for good works, which God prepared beforehand (for us) that we should walk in them."


--- So accepting God's free gift of salvation comes with a ‘work schedule.’ --- God already has a plan for us that we are able to follow, in service to Him, --- if we are willing.

--- Are we fully committed to do God’s will in our lives, or are we apt to follow our own will a little longer?

This is where Jesus said in Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.”

So this makes our entrance into heaven look conditional, does it not? As though our acceptance depends on our obedience to His will for our lives.

We will look at more verses later.

 

[theanointedsinner]

nice interrogation, lol

 

[Budman]

So this makes our entrance into heaven look conditional, does it not? As though our acceptance depends on our obedience to His will for our lives.

Do you obey God's will perfectly without fail?

How many works are required for acceptance?

Is Jesus the Lord of your life at all times?

Do you still sin?

 

[lightbearer]

Do you obey God's will perfectly without fail?

How many works are required for acceptance?

Is Jesus the Lord of your life at all times?

Do you still sin?

Can't you answer the points of the post?

 

[Budman]

Can't you answer the points of the post?

Just trying to see exactly where you stand.

 

[PS]

Okay, now that I have your attention....

One of the main things that is troublesome to my soul, are those who believe one must strive to live the "Christian life" in order to remain saved. They believe that if you sin too much after your conversion, you can lose your salvation. Or they believe you can "give" your salvation back to God and walk away. Or, they'll say, if you don't live and act in a Christian "manner" it proves you were never saved at all.

I wanted to point out, that if one can lose their salvation, based on their performance in any way, then that makes God a liar.

The faithful are always secure. Remember the parable of the Good Shepherd. Even the backslider who goes away from the Father in the parable of the Prodigal Son is secure. Not to forget the repent thief on the cross. He will be there in Paradise with the Lord.

 

[Placid]

Hi,

I am so sorry I have not been spending much time here, so now that I know I should keep up on these topics, I will answer the questions before long.
Blessings.

 

[Placid]

Hi Budman,

I am sorry I have not checked in on this topic since July, but since it was brought to my attention, I want to answer your questions on Post 504:

1 Do you obey God's will perfectly without fail?

Response: --- This is like asking, “Am I perfect before God?” In one sense, I have entered into His Perfection through Salvation. In another sense, I am seeking the Lord’s guidance each day in order to do His will.--- Can I neglect, or ignore something God gives me to do? Yes, I can, and I have done that in times past, only to realize that we don’t grow or prosper until we acknowledge our fault and ask His forgiveness. --- Then He may take us back to that point and give us new instruction. --- It is a case of our willingness to do His will.

I can tell you of an experience from when I was a young Christian, and we were witnessing as we had opportunity. We had people who came to our Church occasionally, and one day, the Lord spoke to me about going to speak to an older lady, and to lead her to the Lord. --- It was a challenge. I knew her quite well and I drove up to her house, but I didn’t stop. I slowly drove around the block and came again in front of her house. I relalized I couldn’t do it (though I know that the Lord gives the courage and the words you need).--- I couldn’t do it. I went back to work, apologizing to the Lord for my failure.
--- Later that day our Pastor came to visit me at work and he said, “Praise the Lord, I have just visited ‘this lady’and led her to the Lord.”
The Lord knew I was a rookie and not quite ready, so He tested me, but He had a backup plan. And the Pastor had the blessing of leading this lady to the Lord.--- Though I missed the blessing, I praise the Lord for our Pastor who was obedient to the Lord, where I failed.

2 How many works are required for acceptance?

Response: --- Ephesians 2:9 “Not of works lest any man should boast.”
No amount of works are of any benefit before we are saved, but after Ephesians 2:8 “For by (God’s) grace you are saved through (your) Faith, --- then we go to verse 10 “For we are His workmanship re-created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
--- So we get the picture, after we become Christians we are to do the good works God gives us to do.--- These are not works to gain acceptance, these are works of righteousness for us to do in service to the Lord. --- This is the test of obedience. We may fail and ask forgiveness, but we must be ready to try again.

3 Is Jesus the Lord of your life at all times?

Response: --- Jesus is our High Priest in heaven, after the order of Melchizedek. But the Scripture says we are to be ‘in Christ.’ 2 Corinthians 5:17 “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”
I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit every day and it is our privilege and a sourse of blessing to be obedient.

4 Do you still sin?

Response: --- I have been on the road a long time and a lot of it wasn’t paved. I have tried to practice two things. One is “Practicing the presence of God,” by being attentive to the Holy Spirit. The second is harder to do, but Paul said in 1 Thesalonnians 5:16 “Rejoice always, 17 ‘pray without ceasing,’ 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. --- And Ephesians 6:18 “Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit.”
--- Notice this simple statement, “For this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.”

In answer to “Do I still sin?” --- It may be more in omission than comission, as James said, in 4:17 “Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.”
Blessings

 

[Placid]

Hi Budman,



I am sorry I have not checked in on this topic since July, but since it was brought to my attention, I want to answer your questions on Post 504

1 Do you obey God's will perfectly without fail?

Response: --- This is like asking, “Am I perfect before God?” In one sense, I have entered into His Perfection through Salvation. In another sense, I am seeking the Lord’s guidance each day in order to do His will. --- Can I neglect, or ignore something God gives me to do? Yes, I can, and I have done that in times past, only to realize that we don’t grow or prosper until we acknowledge our fault and ask His forgiveness. --- Then He may take us back to that point and give us new instruction. --- It is a case of our willingness to do His will.

I can tell you of an experience from when I was a young Christian, and we were witnessing as we had opportunity. We had people who came to our Church occasionally, and one day, the Lord spoke to me about going to speak to an older lady and to lead her to the Lord. --- It was a challenge. I knew her quite well and I drove up to her house, but I didn’t stop. I slowly drove around the block and came again in front of her house. I relalized I couldn’t do it (though I know that the Lord gives the courage and the words you need).--- I couldn’t do it. I went back to work, apologizing to the Lord for my failure.
--- Later that day our Pastor came to visit me at work and he said, “Praise the Lord, I have just visited ‘this lady’and led her to the Lord.”
The Lord knew I was a rookie and not quite ready, so He tested me, but He had a backup plan. And the Pastor had the blessing of leading this lady to the Lord. --- Though I missed the blessing, I praise the Lord for our Pastor who was obedient to the Lord, where I failed.

2 How many works are required for acceptance?

Response: --- Ephesians 2:9 “Not of works lest any man should boast.”
No amount of works are of any benefit before we are saved, but after Ephesians 2:8 “For by (God’s) grace you are saved through (your) Faith, --- then we go to verse 10 “For we are His workmanship re-created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
--- So we get the picture, after we become Christians we are to do the good works God gives us to do.--- These are not works to gain acceptance, these are works of righteousness for us to do in service to the Lord. --- This is the test of obedience. We may fail and ask forgiveness, but we must be ready to try again.

3 Is Jesus the Lord of your life at all times?

Response: --- Jesus is our High Priest in heaven, after the order of Melchizedek. But the Scripture says we are to be ‘in Christ.’ 2 Corinthians 5:17 “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”
I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit every day, and it is our privilege and a sourse of blessing to be obedient.

4 Do you still sin?

Response: --- I have been on the road a long time and a lot of it wasn’t paved. I have tried to practice two things. One is “Practicing the presence of God,” by being attentive to the Holy Spirit. The second is harder to do, but Paul said in 1 Thesalonnianss 5:16 “Rejoice always, 17 ‘pray without ceasing,’ 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. --- And Ephesians 6:18 “Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit.”

--- Notice this simple statement, “For this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.”

In answer to “Do I still sin?” --- It may be more in omission than comission, as James said, in 4:17 “Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.”

Blessings

 

[Budman]

Can I neglect, or ignore something God gives me to do? Yes, I can

Okay. Glad you can admit you still sin. (James 4:17)

we don’t grow or prosper until we acknowledge our fault and ask His forgiveness.

Was all sin forgiven at the cross, or not?

after we become Christians we are to do the good works God gives us to do.--- These are not works to gain acceptance, these are works of righteousness for us to do in service to the Lord.

Again, I'm glad that you know works have no bearing on a Christian's salvation. That matter was settled at the cross.

Good works justify us before men, not God. But our works are the basis for rewards, or lack of, at the Judgment Seat Of Christ.

Blessings to you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Budman,

You said in Post 1, quote: “The Bible says salvation is a gift from God.” (Ephesians 2:8)


Response, ---
Yes, this is part of the familiar passage, --- 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

--- This is often used to assure us that God saves us and keeps us. --- But the next verse starts with ‘for,’ --- and somebody said that when a verse starts with ‘for’ or ‘therefore,’ you should look back and see what it is ‘there for.’ --- It is often dependant on what preceded it.

We can read it like this, 8 “For by (God’s) grace you have been saved through (your) faith, and that (salvation is) not of yourselves (not through your own effort); it is the gift (unmerited favor) of God,
9 not (as a result) of (your) works, lest anyone should boast.

10 For we are His workmanship (prepared workers), created in Christ Jesus (spiritually transformed and ready to be used) for good works, which God prepared beforehand (for us) that we should walk in them."


--- So accepting God's free gift of salvation comes with a ‘work schedule.’ --- God already has a plan for us that we are able to follow, in service to Him, --- if we are willing.

--- Are we fully committed to do God’s will in our lives, or are we apt to follow our own will a little longer?

This is where Jesus said in Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.”

So this makes our entrance into heaven look conditional, does it not? As though our acceptance depends on our obedience to His will for our lives.

We will look at more verses later.

Vs 10 can not contradit vs 8-9

It is a unit

We are saved (completed event) by grace (unmerited favor) through faith (an assurance that what God promises is true) and that (salvation which is completed) is not of yourselfs (not by works of righteousness which you have done titus 3) it is a gift (purchased and paid in full by Christ on the rcross( of God. Not of works (titus 3) least anyone shoudl boast (be puffed up in pride taking credit for saving themselves) for we (those who have been completely saved ) are his workmanship (have been made new creatures, our old selves are dead, our new self has been transformed) created in Christ Jesus (a new creation) For good works (our new nature is to do works. Where our old nature could only sin, now our nature can no longer live in sin see 1 john 3) in which we should walk in them (this is our new normal walk.)

Those who are saved will work. Thats why James was correct. And NOT contradicting paul in his epistle. When he claimed those who HAVE TRUE FAITH WILL (not might) have the works paul said in eph 2: 10 they will have,, If anyone CLAIMS to have faith, but has no work, their faith is dead (they have decieved themselves that they have faith, but they have no faith whatsoever. They have no been saved.)

 

[Budman]

So accepting God's free gift of salvation comes with a ‘work schedule.’ --- God already has a plan for us that we are able to follow, in service to Him, --- if we are willing.

So this makes our entrance into heaven look conditional, does it not? As though our acceptance depends on our obedience to His will for our lives.

Then there is a biblical contradiction, and salvation is not actually a gift as God said it was.

If there's a "work schedule", how much work is required? How many good works keep your salvation "up to date"?

If it's different for all believers, then God has favorites and judges on a sliding scale.

Also, you can never have assurance because, again, one can't know this side of heaven if they've "done enough" to merit staying saved.

 

[Sketch]

So, what is your verdict? Did God lie to us when He made all of those promises, or is our salvation indeed eternal and irrevocable?

These are some great points. Yes, our salvation is indeed irrevocable.
We cannot undo, by an act of our own will, what ONLY God could do in the first place.

Ephesians 2:4-7
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

 

[Budman]

These are some great points. Yes, our salvation is indeed irrevocable.
We cannot undo, by an act of our own will, what ONLY God could do in the first place.

Ephesians 2:4-7
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Amen!

 

[Sketch]

Then there is a biblical contradiction, and salvation is not actually a gift as God said it was.

If there's a "work schedule", how much work is required? How many good works keep your salvation "up to date"?

If it's different for all believers, then God has favorites and judges on a sliding scale.

Also, you can never have assurance because, again, one can't know this side of heaven if they've "done enough" to merit staying saved.

Agreed.

Once you add any sort of "requirements" to salvation you enter the danger zone.
If we are saved based on the work of Christ in our vicarious atonement, that can be measured.

How do you measure anything beyond that? Did you do enough? (How much is enough?)
You did your best???? Couldn't you have done better? (of course)
Was it enough to save you, or retain your salvation? (who knows? How much is enough?)
There can be no assurance of salvation in that mindset.

 

[Lanolin]

Hmm well...I do think Jesus will separate the goats from the sheep and the wheat from the tares and satan will do everything in his power to make the believer fall into the goat/tare category.

(This is why Jesus prayed for Peter, that his faith would not fail, as .satan was going to sift him as wheat)

Also in revelation Jesus spoke to the churches at the time and gave several warnings eg church of lodaecia, whose works were neither cold not hot, they were lukewarm. He was going to spit those out of his mouth! Maybe he meant the works, not the people.

He wants those doing lukewarm works to overcome and to have victory thats why he counseled them to buy eyesalve and clothes and gold from him.

No God doesnt lie but satan does and tries to get us to believe his lies.

 

[Budman]

I do think Jesus will separate the goats from the sheep and the wheat from the tares and satan will do everything in his power to make the believer fall into the goat/tare category.

Believers can never fall into that category for all of the reasons listed in the OP.

 

[Sketch]

Believers can never fall into that category for all of the reasons listed in the OP.

I agree, but this raises an interesting point, or question.

That passage had always bothered me, because it sounds as if a judgment of works was being made for all humankind.
I know that's not the way it is supposed to work. And I agree with your response to the question about it. But...
what then is the purpose of this judgment of separating the sheep from the goats?
If all these folks are lost goats, how is it that some of them are saved sheep?

 

[Budman]

I agree, but this raises an interesting point, or question.

That passage had always bothered me, because it sounds as if a judgment of works was being made for all humankind.
I know that's not the way it is supposed to work. And I agree with your response to the question about it. But...
what then is the purpose of this judgment of separating the sheep from the goats?
If all these folks are lost goats, how is it that some of them are saved sheep?

There will certainly be false professors at this judgment. The ones Jesus spoke of who did "many wonderful works" in His name. The ones to whom Jesus will say "I never knew you".

A lot of those money obsessed televangelists come directly to mind. Those who make merchandise of God's people. Who claim to be "little gods" who love to say, "God told me to tell you, that if you donate "X" amount of money....."