getting dates about a young earth

[Tintin]

Well, at least you're beginning to recognize that as a past destruction upon the earth, even though it doesn't mention a flood.

Find me Scripture in Genesis with the flood of Noah's day doing that trembling and shaking of the earth.

I admit, I can't do that. The story of Noah in Genesis is very detailed in some respects and vague in other respects. But there are some other verses in the Bible that offer extra details. Here's a particularly good one from the Old Testament.

You covered it (the earth) with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
At your rebuke they fled;
at the sound of your thunder, they took to flight.
The mountains rose, the valleys sank down
to the place that you appointed for them.
You set a boundary that they may not pass
so that they might not again cover the earth.

Psalm 104:6-9

 

[DP]

Nay, but just read the preceding and following verses. It's rather plainly stated.

If you try to apply those events of Jer.4:23-28 to the time of the historical king of Babylon and God's judgment upon Judea in that time, then you would be taking that Chapter completely out of Biblical context. How?

Because simply of what those Jer.4:23-28 state that happened. God didn't literally shake the earth to that level in the time of the historical king of Babylon. Nor did all the birds flee, and there still was man upon the earth, nor was the earth turned into a wilderness then, etc.

And you guys who are so in love with the weak translation of Hebrew tohuw to "without form", will lose marks by agreeing that Jer.4:23 tohuw va bohuw does... mean the earth being desolated into a wasted and ruined state.

 

[DP]

I admit, I can't do that. The story of Noah in Genesis is very detailed in some respects and vague in other respects. But there are some other verses in the Bible that offer extra details. Here's a particularly good one from the Old Testament.

You covered it (the earth) with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
At your rebuke they fled;
at the sound of your thunder, they took to flight.
The mountains rose, the valleys sank down
to the place that you appointed for them.
You set a boundary that they may not pass
so that they might not again cover the earth.Psalm 104:6-9

Though that's not one of them, there's actually a few passages in the Psalms that refer back to the destruction at Gen.1:2.

 

[Tintin]

Though that's not one of them, there's actually a few passages in the Psalms that refer back to the destruction at Gen.1:2.

I've heard such claims before. Do tell.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

If you try to apply those events of Jer.4:23-28 to the time of the historical king of Babylon and God's judgment upon Judea in that time, then you would be taking that Chapter completely out of Biblical context. How?

Because simply of what those Jer.4:23-28 state that happened. God didn't literally shake the earth to that level in the time of the historical king of Babylon. Nor did all the birds flee, and there still was man upon the earth, nor was the earth turned into a wilderness then, etc.

And you guys who are so in love with the weak translation of Hebrew tohuw to "without form", will lose marks by agreeing that Jer.4:23 tohuw va bohuw does... mean the earth being desolated into a wasted and ruined state.

It's partly about the end of time and creation. Very recurring theme throughout Jeremiah and indeed much the rest of the Bible that in the end times the sky will become black, the sun and moon will be put out, the stars will fall to the earth, and the earth will be shaken violently. Ultimately the earth and heavens will be destroyed and replaced with the new earth and new heavens. The Flood of Noah and the sacking of Israel by Babylon are all foreshadows of the end times. Quite a common theme throughout the Bible actually.

 

[DP]

I've heard such claims before. Do tell.

Ps 104:5-9
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
7 At Thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of Thy thunder they hasted away.
8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which Thou hast founded for them.
9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
KJV



... in relation to...

2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

 

[DP]

It's partly about the end of time and creation. Very recurring theme throughout Jeremiah and indeed much the rest of the Bible that in the end times the sky will become black, the sun and moon will be put out, the stars will fall to the earth, and the earth will be shaken violently. Ultimately the earth and heavens will be destroyed and replaced with the new earth and new heavens. The Flood of Noah and the sacking of Israel by Babylon are all foreshadows of the end times. Quite a common theme throughout the Bible actually.

I understand how it relates to the end of this world, but it does not relate to God's creation of Gen.1:1.

At Genesis 1:1 God created a Perfect earth, not in the state of vanity and bondage it's in today, and was also in prior to the flood of Noah's days.

At Gen.1:2 the earth became in a wasted and ruined state, the old world God created at verse 1 having perished by a flood over the whole earth.

Something happened in between Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2 to cause God to end that old world that existed prior to Gen.1:2. That's why Jer.4:23-28 is pointing to that first destruction upon the earth with God having shook the earth to remove the works on it. That was the first time God shook this old earth. That's what Hebrew 12 is showing us with, "Yet once more...".

I do not believe the men on earth in that time prior to Gen.1:2 were flesh men. I believe the Jer.4:23-28 man is referring to the sons of God at the time of Satan's rebellion, for God also created the angels with His Image of man.

 

[Tintin]

Ps 104:5-9
5Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
7 At Thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of Thy thunder they hasted away.
8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which Thou hast founded for them.
9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
KJV



... in relation to...

2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

Verses 6-9 of Psalm 104 are very clearly referring to the Flood of Noah's time. If it was talking about the so-called 'Flood' that according to the Gap Theory happened between Genesis 1:1-1:2, then God would be lying by saying that He wouldn't cover the earth with water again, because He totally did cover the earth with water in the time of Noah!

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I understand how it relates to the end of this world, but it does not relate to God's creation of Gen.1:1.

At Genesis 1:1 God created a Perfect earth, not in the state of vanity and bondage it's in today, and was also in prior to the flood of Noah's days.

At Gen.1:2 the earth became in a wasted and ruined state, the old world God created at verse 1 having perished by a flood over the whole earth.

Something happened in between Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2 to cause God to end that old world that existed prior to Gen.1:2. That's why Jer.4:23-28 is pointing to that first destruction upon the earth with God having shook the earth to remove the works on it. That was the first time God shook this old earth. That's what Hebrew 12 is showing us with, "Yet once more...".

I do not believe the men on earth in that time prior to Gen.1:2 were flesh men. I believe the Jer.4:23-28 man is referring to the sons of God at the time of Satan's rebellion, for God also created the angels with His Image of man.

Jeremiah 4 is not about Genesis, that's why you're confused. There were no men on earth before man was created by God. The fallen angel stuff didn't happen until Genesis 6, which be sometime between the fall of Adam from Eden and the Flood times. They're nothing to worry about though they have been consigned to chains of darkness, but there is one more fall of angels prophesied to happen towards the end of time. Satan's rebellion is in Genesis 3 when the dragon lied and beguiled woman whom gave to the man to eat which caused sin and death to enter the world and corrupt the creation.

 

[DP]

Verses 6-9 of Psalm 104 are very clearly referring to the Flood of Noah's time. If it was talking about the so-called 'Flood' that according to the Gap Theory happened between Genesis 1:1-1:2, then God would be lying by saying that He wouldn't cover the earth with water again, because He totally did cover the earth with water in the time of Noah!

I noticed you made my quote of the phrase, "Who laid the foundations of the earth" un-bold. I had that in bold because... it's part of the TIMING of that Psalms 104 example of waters overspread upon the earth, like the 2 Pet.3 example also is of that same timing.

2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

All that in bold is of the same timing of Gen.1:2. We know it's Gen.1:2 timing because of that part in bold red, "that by the word of God the heavens were of old", which is about the time of God's creation at Gen.1:1.

Those phrases in bold blue are also being linked with that same timing of the red phrase, so no way... can that be about the time of Noah.

The "Whereby the world that then was" is also pointing to that timing of the previous verse. It's about the world that was created at Gen.1:1 that perished with a flood upon the earth at that timing of Gen.1:2-9 with the earth standing out of the water, and in the water.

 

[DP]

Jeremiah 4 is not about Genesis, that's why you're confused. There were no men on earth before man was created by God. The fallen angel stuff didn't happen until Genesis 6, which be sometime between the fall of Adam from Eden and the Flood times. They're nothing to worry about though they have been consigned to chains of darkness, but there is one more fall of angels prophesied to happen towards the end of time. Satan's rebellion is in Genesis 3 when the dragon lied and beguiled woman whom gave to the man to eat which caused sin and death to enter the world and corrupt the creation.

Sure it is about the destruction at Gen.1:2. You just haven't realized it yet, because it goes against a YEC tradition you've chosen to believe instead.

Did you know the definition of the Archangel Gabriel's name means 'man of God'? Does that mean Gabriel has a flesh body? I thought he is an angel? So Gabriel is a 'man' too, isn't he? Yes, of course, because 'man' does not only represent flesh Adam. It represents God's Heavenly Image that originates from Heaven! Or did you miss understanding Gen.1:26-27 what God said with creating man, saying Let us create man in Our Image, Our Likeness?

 

[Tintin]

I noticed you made my quote of the phrase, "Who laid the foundations of the earth" un-bold. I had that in bold because... it's part of the TIMING of that Psalms 104 example of waters overspread upon the earth, like the 2 Pet.3 example also is of that same timing.

2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

All that in bold is of the same timing of Gen.1:2. We know it's Gen.1:2 timing because of that part in bold red, "that by the word of God the heavens were of old", which is about the time of God's creation at Gen.1:1.

Those phrases in bold blue are also being linked with that same timing of the red phrase, so no way... can that be about the time of Noah.

The "Whereby the world that then was" is also pointing to that timing of the previous verse. It's about the world that was created at Gen.1:1 that perished with a flood upon the earth at that timing of Gen.1:2-9 with the earth standing out of the water, and in the water.

That's because verse 5 refers to Creation Week, the rest doesn't. I can't help you if you can't see it. Again, God would be lying if He flooded the earth between Genesis 1:1-1:2 and then said He wouldn't ever flood the earth again, and then flooded the earth in the time of Noah.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Sure it is about the destruction at Gen.1:2. You just haven't realized it yet, because it goes against a YEC tradition you've chosen to believe instead.

Did you know the definition of the Archangel Gabriel's name means 'man of God'? Does that mean Gabriel has a flesh body? I thought he is an angel? So Gabriel is a 'man' too, isn't he? Yes, of course, because 'man' does not only represent flesh Adam. It represents God's Heavenly Image that originates from Heaven! Or did you miss understanding Gen.1:26-27 what God said with creating man, saying Let us create man in Our Image, Our Likeness?

There is no destruction in Genesis 1:2. Genesis chapters 1 & 2 are about creation, not destruction.

Gabriel's name means God is My Strength.

When God says "let us" and "in our likeness" when making man, "Our" and "Us" is God the Father and his Word by which he made everything, Jesus.

 

[DP]

I've still got to try and make this more simple to grasp:

2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:


6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

1. Sets the time reference: "by the word of God the heavens were of old". That was Gen.1:1 when God spoke and the heavens and the earth was first created.

2. "and the earth standing out of the water and in the water" - the event of Gen.1:2-9 when God began separating the waters overspread upon the earth, making the dry land to eventually appear.

3. "Whereby the world that then was," - the whereby conjunction links back to the timing of the previous verse about God having created the heavens and the earth, and then the earth standing out of the water and in the water. By that condition... that world then at that time, "being overflowed with water, perished".

 

[DP]

That's because verse 5 refers to Creation Week, the rest doesn't. I can't help you if you can't see it. Again, God would be lying if He flooded the earth between Genesis 1:1-1:2 and then said He wouldn't ever flood the earth again, and then flooded the earth in the time of Noah.

Ps.104:5-9 are all directly linked as to the same timing. God first created the heavens and the earth at Gen.1:1, and then something caused Him to tremble that old earth and perish that world with a flood, which is the state of the earth with waters overspread upon it at Gen.1:2.

Ps 104:5-9
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
7 At Thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of Thy thunder they hasted away.
8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which Thou hast founded for them.
9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
KJV

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I've still got to try and make this more simple to grasp:

2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:


6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

1. Sets the time reference: "by the word of God the heavens were of old". That was Gen.1:1 when God spoke and the heavens and the earth was first created.

2. "and the earth standing out of the water and in the water" - the event of Gen.1:2-9 when God began separating the waters overspread upon the earth, making the dry land to eventually appear.

3. "Whereby the world that then was," - the whereby conjunction links back to the timing of the previous verse about God having created the heavens and the earth, and then the earth standing out of the water and in the water. By that condition... that world then at that time, "being overflowed with water, perished".

Peter is talking about how the scoffers of today and tomorrow think everything in creation has stayed the same and therefore they do not believe that Jesus will return. That they are willingly ignorant of the fact that God created the creation and how the world was destroyed by the Flood in Noah's time. Indeed this verse is very foretelling of the OEC and other heresies of our time which are basically premised upon denying the creation account in Genesis and the Flood account.

Peter goes on to use the Noahic Flood reference to foreshadow the end of time when the creation shall be destroyed by fire. This is another chapter where it is good to read the whole chapter and is actually pretty straight forward.

2 Peter 3

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[DP]

There is no destruction in Genesis 1:2. Genesis chapters 1 & 2 are about creation, not destruction.

Gabriel's name means God is My Strength.

When God says "let us" and "in our likeness" when making man, "Our" and "Us" is God the Father and his Word by which he made everything, Jesus.

Will you say these two verse's timing are unrelated also?

Ps 33:6-7
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
KJV

 

[DP]

Peter is talking about how the scoffers of today and tomorrow think everything in creation has stayed the same and therefore they do not believe that Jesus will return. That they are willingly ignorant of the fact that God created the creation and how the world was destroyed by the Flood in Noah's time. Indeed this verse is very foretelling of the OEC and other heresies of our time which are basically premised upon denying the creation account in Genesis and the Flood account.

Peter goes on to use the Noahic Flood reference to foreshadow the end of time when the creation shall be destroyed by fire. This is another chapter where it is good to read the whole chapter and is actually pretty straight forward.

No thanks, I really don't need your lesson on what Peter was talking about in 2 Peter 3. I well know he was covering the subject of 3 world ages, and the time of Noah was part of this 2nd world age we're still in today.

Because some struggle with understanding about those 3 world ages, especially the first one which God ended when He ended Satan's original rebellion, Peter mentioned how in some of Paul's Epistles they struggle with this subject also:

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
KJV



Here's one of the places in Paul's Epistles that Peter was talking about:

In all of the below cases of the word "creature", it is the same Greek word as "creation" in verse 22. It's about God's original creation of Gen.1:1.

Rom 8:18-25
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

The creation awaits for the future kingdom of Christ when the sons of God will literally be manifest according to that future glory.


20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

The creation was subjected to vanity (i.e., tohuw), by God's Hand. But when did He do that? Not in the time of Adam and Eve. There's no Scripture evidence for that, because death was already assigned to Satan by then.


21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Even the creation will be released from it's imperfect state of corruption it's in today. So was the time prior to Noah a time prior when God's perfect incorruptible creation existed? No. There's no Scripture pointing to that idea. From Adam down to today, that's all a part of this present world that reserved unto destruction by fire.


22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.


23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?


25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
KJV

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Will you say these two verse's timing are unrelated also?

Ps 33:6-7
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
KJV

View attachment 145644

For Gabriel, you'll want to go through the root meanings on Strong's. Simply surf the links under Word Origins. It'll take you to gabar. God is my strength, Man of God, Hero of God, God is heroic, etc. are some of the ways Gabriel's name is translated. I think we get the point though.

Those two verses are about how God made the creation as echoed in Genesis indeed. Taken as a whole in that Psalm, about the might and majesty of the Lord.

Verse 9 is actually pretty good too for the overall topic.

Psalm 33:9

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

 

[posthuman]

why is it that none of these people who were apparently around between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 (what with the air of first-hand knowledge) bothered to take some pictures with their ubiquitous i-phones?

i've been digging around instagram for hours and can't find a single selfie of "Satan's flood"

why do we even have 16 megapixel cameras in our pockets??? i don't want to see what you had for lunch!