getting dates about a young earth

[valiant]

The Great Flood was the catalyst for the one and only Ice Age, roughly 4,300 years ago.

about 6000 years out LOL But if the great flood occurred 4,300 years ago you have proved the genealogies 'inaccurate'. Shem would have lived over 2000 years,

 

[Tintin]

about 6000 years out LOL But if the great flood occurred 4,300 years ago you have proved the genealogies 'inaccurate'. Shem would have lived over 2000 years,

No, no. Shem was 98 years old when the Great Flood occurred. He had his son Arphaxad when he was 100 years old. Shem died 500 years later at the ripe age of 600. But I think it's more accurate to say the tower of Babel incident happened around 4,300 years ago (and that was anywhere up to 130 years after the Great Flood, in the time of Peleg and before he had his first son Reu. Otherwise, the dispersion of the nations would've happened in the time of Reu. Biblical creationists believe the Ice Age began maybe only half a century after this incident took place).

So, if this were the case and we take the traditional year of Creation as being 4004BC and the Great Flood as 1656 years from Creation and we add the two years from Arphaxad's birth (making it 1658) and then we add the 128 years to the time of Peleg and before he had an 'heir' and he lived for 372 years beyond that, this would mean Shem died 2158 years from Creation. 4004-2158 = 1846BC. Abraham may have still been alive at the time Shem died.

I don't agree with Ussher's timeline exactly, but I believe it's pretty close (give or take a couple hundred years).

 

[Tintin]

Creationists are of many types, including those who say the age is 6000 years old, and those who consider it is much 0lder, and those who believe 'evolution' was involved, It is not God's word which determines the age of the earth, it is man's arrogance, The Bible says nothing about the age of the earth

Those who believe evolution was involved aren't creationists, they're theistic evolutionists. Old earthers who are sans evolution are called progressive creationists. But I don't think there's anything progressive about their beliefs.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually, I've spent years comparing the evidences for YEC and OEC....and, by far, the most compelling evidences are in the old earth camp.

What I find most amusing, however, is that I accept YEC's as fellow Christians....but, YEC's, such as yourself, and others on boards such as these, reject OEC's as Christians.

See the double standard?

I have found that YEC's are some of the most close-minded, prejudiced people on the planet.

I'm not an atheist.

I reject human evolution.

I believe in divine creation.

I take Jesus Christ as my God & Savior.

The only difference is that I also accept the proven evidences of a billions of years old Earth, and an even older Universe.


You YEC's need to grow up...

You too puffed up. Anyone who thinks an OEC is not a true believer, or can't be, is too proud.

Thats why we should not have these arguments, To many stiff necked people who does not want to give an inch, it makes us look bad..

and PS. YEC's have been called many names. In fact I heard a teaching from my church from back in 1996, in which my own leader called yec's some choice names.. It actually hurt some. But then I realised where it came from. We have more proof today then we had back then.. So I could almost understand why he felt that way (to be honest, I felt the same way myself back then. )

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One does not build a sound doctrine around ONE verse. That is what followers of islam, and cults do.

Satan was bound at The Cross.

The Holy Bible says this time and again...


Heb 2.14


επει ουν τα παιδια κεκοινωνηκεν αιματος και σαρκος και αυτος παραπλησιως μετεσχεν των αυτων ινα δια του θανατου καταργηση τον το κρατος εχοντα του θανατου τουτ εστιν τον διαβολον


epei oun ta paidia kekoinōnēken haimatos kai sarkos kai autos paraplēsiōs meteschen tōn autōn hina dia tou thanatou katargēsē ton to kratos echonta tou thanatou tout' estin ton diabolon


Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might render entirely idle the one having the power of death, that is, the devil;


‘Katargēsē’ is in the aorist (i.e. past tense)...meaning completed action.

Yet he roams freely like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour. He is at the throne room of God all the time making accusations against the saints. And he is seen around the world affecting rulers.. And we are warned our war is not against flesh and blood but principalies and powers.

yep. Satan is sure bound, He can not decieve any nation today (rolls eyes)

And you want us to listen to your OEC proof when you can not even get this basic thing correct??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OEC's embrace God's Special and General Revelations....and they must both agree.

For YEC's, such as yourself, to immediately equate billions of years with atheism and evolution tells me that the atheists and evolutionists of the world have won their battle with you!

Its little wonder that you can only teach your short-sightedness to impressionable middle-schoolers....as anything beyond this age level, then you would be laughed completely off campus.

this is no response This is HATE mongered attacking of people. Based on assumptions not facts..

Thats why no one listens to you.

 

[valiant]

No, no. Shem was 98 years old when the Great Flood occurred. He had his son Arphaxad when he was 100 years old. Shem died 500 years later at the ripe age of 600. But I think it's more accurate to say the tower of Babel incident happened around 4,300 years ago (and that was anywhere up to 130 years after the Great Flood, in the time of Peleg and before he had his first son Reu. Otherwise, the dispersion of the nations would've happened in the time of Reu. Biblical creationists believe the Ice Age began maybe only half a century after this incident took place).

So, if this were the case and we take the traditional year of Creation as being 4004BC and the Great Flood as 1656 years from Creation and we add the two years from Arphaxad's birth (making it 1658) and then we add the 128 years to the time of Peleg and before he had an 'heir' and he lived for 372 years beyond that, this would mean Shem died 2158 years from Creation. 4004-2158 = 1846BC. Abraham may have still been alive at the time Shem died.

I don't agree with Ussher's timeline exactly, but I believe it's pretty close (give or take a couple hundred years).

lol your maths is awful

 

[valiant]

Yet he roams freely like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour.

In the form of roman soldiers

He is at the throne room of God all the time making accusations against the saints.

nope. no entry. rev 12.9-10;

And he is seen around the world affecting rulers.. And we are warned our war is not against flesh and blood but principalies and powers.

.affecting them. But it his minions who attack them.

yep. Satan is sure bound, He can not decieve any nation today (rolls eyes)

His being bound does not affect him being able to deceive the nations. Pity about the eyes

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In the form of roman soldiers

Your adversary the DEVIL....

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

nope. no entry. rev 12.9-10;

Rev 12: 10 has not occured yet.. He has not been cast down to the earth.. That is a future event

.affecting them. But it his minions who attack them.

Who said anythign about attack? I said decieve nations.. and he uses his minions yes. But he is in control.

His being bound does not affect him being able to deceive the nations. Pity about the eyes

Revelation 20:3
and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.


Revelation 20:8
and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

You were saying?

 

[valiant]

Your adversary the DEVIL....

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

yes, in the roman soldiers (and others) who persecute the church.

Rev 12: 10 has not occured yet.. He has not been cast down to the earth.. That is a future event

rubbish

Who said anythign about attack? I said decieve nations.. and he uses his minions yes. But he is in control

.

no one doubts his control over his minions. But where from? lol

Revelation 20:3
and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

yes and his release from the Abyss is portrayed in Revn 9.11.

Revelation 20:8
and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

this is before the second coming of Christ. You were saying?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes, in the roman soldiers (and others) who persecute the church.

The passage does not say that. Stop adding to Gods word. He said your adversary the devil.. Stop being like the romans and adding to the word of God so you do not have to take it literally. that's what got you all in trouble to begin with.

rubbish

That's what I think of your belief satan has not only been cast down, but is already put in the bottomless pit.. Rubbish..

Of course. that is not a viable argument, It is nothing but pride speaking. and proves nothing.

no one doubts his control over his minions. But where from? lol

The bottomless pit? No.. No one could get to him to take orders.. Scripture says he is SHUT UP..

Again. if you would not make the mistake of the romans, you would not falter with this allegorical interpretation.

yes and his release from the Abyss is portrayed in Revn 9.11.

So Lucifer, or satan is now abbadon or appolyon.. And he is not the ruler of this earth, the king of darkness. the beast etc etc.. He is the angel of the bottomless pit.. ok..

You keep getting further away.. and more unbelievable.. It is like we make things up. we come to your belief.

In rev 20 John calls him the dragon, the devil, the serpent of old. not the angel of the pit..

ok.. next!!!

this is before the second coming of Christ. You were saying?

Nope. this is at the exact time Christ returns.

The beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. the dragon (satan) is bound in the bottomless pit for a thousand years..

those who did not receive the mark of the beast, and were killed rule with Christ in this time for 1000 years. while he is bound. Why do you think their is peace for 1000 years.. Why do you think people of all nations go to Jerusalem once a year to worship the king..

so, you were saying....

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant yes, in the roman soldiers (and others) who persecute the church.

The passage does not say that. Stop adding to Gods word. He said your adversary the devil.. Stop being like the romans and adding to the word of God so you do not have to take it literally. that's what got you all in trouble to begin with.

you are pathetic. do you really think the Devil wastes his time on such trivia? Or maybe you think he is omnipresent? he lets his minions do that work for him.

That's what I think of your belief satan has not only been cast down, but is already put in the bottomless pit.. Rubbish..

if you think Rev 12 is future you are deluded. It all happened at Christ's death and resurrection,

Of course. that is not a viable argument, It is nothing but pride speaking. and proves nothing.

lol

The bottomless pit? No.. No one could get to him to take orders.. Scripture says he is SHUT UP..

Satan is a spirit being, He could not be shut up. The abyss is in the heavenlies from which he directs his minions,

So Lucifer, or satan is now abbadon or appolyon.. And he is not the ruler of this earth, the king of darkness. the beast etc etc.. He is the angel of the bottomless pit.. ok..

yes he is the king of the fallen angels, Abaddon and Apollyon means destroyer. That's what he is, he is not the angel of the pit.

In rev 20 John calls him the dragon, the devil, the serpent of old. not the angel of the pit..

so he is not a Destroyer?

ok.. next!!!

the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth is a myth. His people who are raised with Him (Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1) live and reign with Him in Heaven.

LOL your picture of Christ is of an earthly king who cannot even keep his own kingdom intact

 

[eternally-gratefull]

you are pathetic. do you really think the Devil wastes his time on such trivia? Or maybe you think he is omnipresent? he lets his minions do that work for him.

I think I will head the warning. God did not waste his breath, God would not warn us if we did not need warned.

Or I could be like you.. God tells us things which are not true.

ps. your attacks are a waste Call me pathetic or whatever. It does not prove you point. and only proves your a bully and proud person who should not be listened too..

if you think Rev 12 is future you are deluded. It all happened at Christ's death and resurrection,

Rev 12 is an overview.

If you think it is past. Your deluded.. God said he would protect the woman who gave birth tot eh child. That is not the church it is Israel. The church did not give Christ life. Christ birthed the church..

However. I will not call you names.. I will just state it can't be what you say unless I twist the word of God.

lol

The Pharisees laughed also.

Satan is a spirit being, He could not be shut up. The abyss is in the heavenlies from which he directs his minions,

So God said he is shut up.. And he has the power to shut him up.. But you do not think God has that power..

It goes to everything you believe, so sadly. I can believe you really think that.

Me, I believe God is the creator. And if he says he will SHUT a created being up so he can not deceive . then he will do it.

yes he is the king of the fallen angels, Abaddon and Apollyon means destroyer. That's what he is, he is not the angel of the pit.

Read the passage.

He is called the angel of the bottomless pit. he is king over the things which come out of the pit only..

Satan is king of all demons. not just the ones in the bottomless pit.. Lets get real now.

so he is not a Destroyer?

That does not prove you point. next

the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth is a myth. His people who are raised with Him (Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1) live and reign with Him in Heaven.

It is a myth to roman church who does not want him to rule on earth.

Yet the OT prophets said he would rule. and peace would be restored.

But hey, I guess you think mean and women will be giving birth in heaven, and babys will be there.

LOL your picture of Christ is of an earthly king who cannot even keep his own kingdom intact

Not that's your picture..

Yuo call this world. and all the evil that is in it, Gods kingdom..

In my picture, there is complete peace.. In fact, when satan is released.. God immediately puts down his rebellion. THEN THE END OCCURES, when satan is cast to hell. .

 

[Dan_473]

Semantics.

'Child' demonstrates the point, most assuredly...

well, I disagree... if the point is that adam was formed as a newborn, then imo baby is a more precise word.

 

[valiant]

Rev 12 is an overview.

If you think it is past. Your deluded.. God said he would protect the woman who gave birth tot eh child. That is not the church it is Israel. The church did not give Christ life. Christ birthed the church..

the woman in the wilderness is the new born Jewish church, as the woman with the twelve stars is Israel. True Israel bore the messiah, who was caught up to God at the resurrection, and Satan then pursued the true Israel into the wilderness to destroy her,

when you have got rid of this millennium nonsense (as I did years ago) I will talk to you further, LOl you are still in the grip of the heresies of Darby. Here in uk we got rid of that ,

 

[Dan_473]

Why don't you start by showing us your exegesis of your other two examples...

certainly! for samuel

God tells samuel to annoint someone in place of saul... sam says if saul finds out, he'll kill me... God says take some sacrifice stuff and say you're going to sacrifice.

so, samuel doesn't actually lie, but the truth is 'veiled' from saul, who isn't careful to remember God's revelation up to that point (moses and samuel, maybe some others).

I think this is a good parallel with how God might have created the universe, creating it already looking old.

the truth is 'veiled', but only from those who don't access the revelation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the woman in the wilderness is the new born Jewish church, as the woman with the twelve stars is Israel. True Israel bore the messiah, who was caught up to God at the resurrection, and Satan then pursued the true Israel into the wilderness to destroy her,

when you have got rid of this millennium nonsense (as I did years ago) I will talk to you further, LOl you are still in the grip of the heresies of Darby. Here in uk we got rid of that ,

That's impossible

The child can not give birth to the mother.

Sorry but I do not buy into church dogma just because people older then me said it, does not make it true..

Not to mention. OT prophets speak of the same events.. And it always speaks of the nation of Israel.

 

[Dan_473]

Why don't you start by showing us your exegesis of your other two examples...

and for the wine


Jesus turns water into wine, which has the appearance of age.

seems the waitstaff heard what Jesus said, but headwaiter hadn't (yet) heard that.

so he thinks this liquid has been fermenting for a while, the truth is 'veiled' from him.



I think this is a good parallel with how God might have created the universe, creating it with the appearance of having undergone previous processes.


the truth is 'veiled', but only from those who haven't (yet) heard God.

 

[Dan_473]

It is NOT dated by carbon dating, which is unreliable. It is dated by historical documents, which we know existed at that time and we have today,

I'd expect that archeologists would use carbon dating at least as one of the tools in their toolbelt... so, they actually don't use it at all?

 

[Dan_473]

The Bible says nothing about the age of the earth

as you read it, does it talk about the age of the sun?