Free will and God's will

[preacher4truth]

Censuring God. It happens often among professing believers. I just "happened" to come across this "perchance" this morning and it goes right along with what is being witnessed in this thread:

 

[trofimus]

We all agree
God is Love.

Love is never forced.
God is more than able to force and make things happen any way He likes. But that doesn't mean He does. He could have forced satan to think differently and done it without satan even knowing it, and this problem called sin and evil would never have started. But God didn't because He is love and love is never forced.

Will people in hell be forced to stay there? Or will they be free to leave?

What about fallen angels kept in tartarus. Are they forced to be there or are they free to leave?

What about bounded satan who will be released in the end of the world. Is he free to do what he wants?

 

[TMS]

Will people in hell be forced to stay there? Or will they be free to leave?

What about fallen angels kept in tartarus. Are they forced to be there or are they free to leave?

What about bounded satan who will be released in the end of the world. Is he free to do what he wants?

I said love is not forced.
The law of God says that the sinner shall die. Those that sin will die for eternity. Does God need to obey this law? No He is God and can do what He wants but He did choose to obey or enforce this law but He paid it for us. Fully just and merciful at the same time. God sets laws in place and is just about how He enforces them. People do not have immortal souls so they do not live forever unless they are given salvation and are written in the book of life. (No-one will burn forever)
The control God uses to restrain Satan and his angels is protection for the universe, which is loving. Love is not forced means that God will not force Satan or me or you to love Him. And that He will not force us to recieve His love.

 

[trofimus]

The law of God says that the sinner shall die. Those that sin will die for eternity.

And God decided to make this law with all its consequences (including forcing unsaved sinners to stay in hell, eternally).

 

[Depleted]

Calvinists are by definition. They believe they believe because they were chosen to believe, and had no choice in the matter. It does not get any more fatalistic than that.

Oh, so you're the fatalist? Okay, then feel free to respond to EG.

 

[Depleted]

They will not admit it.

So your choice is second choice?

Okey-dokey then. You're the one who wanted everyone to judge by how you responded. Let it be so.

 

[Depleted]

This shows a total lack of understanding. Muslims are fatalists, Christians are not.
The difference is the biblical God controls all things that come to pass;
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

I truly believe many do not understand. Most don't. And even when someone comes to understand it, it doesn't have to mean he/she agrees with it. Calvinism doesn't save. All it does it make the Bible easier to understand, and makes the Lord easier for us to understand.

But none of that says who Magenta is. Magenta does understand. She just doesn't like the God she cannot control, and then gets mad at others for accepting the one and only God.

She gets it. She hates it. Right now, she also hates God. I don't know if that's backsliding or what, but she has put herself -- by her own choice no less -- on the path of degrading anyone who disagrees with her.

I've been praying the Lord softens her heart again.

 

[Depleted]

How about telling people how they are, instead of just stating what you think. You said you wanted to help someone a few posts ago. You will not help anyone if you come in just stating things as fact and telling a person they are wrong. You need to explain why they are wrong.





There you go thats better, I disagree though. This would be the opposite of fatalism.

God is perfect. And in perfect love, He offers his free gift of eternal life to all people. Failure to do so. Would mean his perfect love is not perfect but flawed.

Fatalism says God has determined a person is hell bound, without giving them any chance, ie, their future is determined, and their judgment is fatal.



will have to agree to disagree.



I believe God controls every single molecule. Yet I believe we all have free choice. I can chose freely without God giving up control.


It has everything to do with the question at hand.

A Muslim thinks they have control of their eternity, thus they are not fatalistic



I see you are just as arrogant as some of your brothers.

How about trying to discuss things, and stop with your silly puffed up arrogant attack. You will not get anyone to look at you in doing this.

While your trying to find some humility. I suggest you do what you think I need to do. And study,

We have differing views of what fatalism means, Maybe if we try to understand what the other thinks, we can actually have a discussion

either way attacking people like this is a futile endeavor if your going to try to help people.

It truly amazes me how often you tell other people how not to act, and in the entire post of telling them how not to act, you describe exactly how you DO act. And yet, you do not see it at all.

 

[Depleted]

And I need to study?? Lolol

Considering Calvinists do not believe in fate, yup. You need to study.

 

[Depleted]

FATEalism. A doctrine which states a persons FATE is determined or inevitable no matter what. (Ie, the person has no choice but to chose their fate that was predetermined)


A Muslim is not a fatalist.

A catholic is not a fatalist

An Armenian is not a fatalist.

Many christians who have placed their faith in the living God for salvation are not fatalist. Some, who have placed their faith in God are.

Fate, as defined by Wiki
Traditional usage defines fate as a power or agency that predetermines and orders the course of events. Fate defines events as ordered or "inevitable" and unavoidable. This is a concept based on the belief that there is a fixed natural order to the universe, and in some conceptions, the cosmos. Classical and European mythology feature personified "fate spinners," known as the Moirai in Greek mythology, the Parcae in Roman mythology, and the Norns in Norse mythology. They determine the events of the world through the mystic spinning of threads that represent individual human fates. Fate is often conceived as being divinely inspired.

If you're into mystical thread-spinners, then maybe you do believe in Fate. But, I'm a Christian. I don't believe there is a fixed natural order to the universe. I don't believe there a mythical feature is personified. I don't believe there is a "they" determining events. I believe there is one sovereign God. And he never divinely inspired some thing called "fate."

 

[Depleted]

I do not know if you are new here or not. But I am going to warn you right now. This kind of nonsense will not be tolerated.

if you want to discuss things, we will discuss things, You want to slam people with these silly arrogant attacks, i will put you with a few of your brothers.

I suggest you all look at grandpa and the way he discusses things, He leads to your view of predestination. Yet you never see him attack or bully people.

You all should be ashamed.

I have to head to bed, If you want to repost to my response in a more humble, brotherly non judgmental way. I will respond to you in kind.

Cool! Try Grandpa as your role model too.

Jsr starts a post on free will versus God's will. You turn it into arguing about Calvinists, and then are shocked at the gall of people to argue back! And then you are indignant at the name calling when YOU the first one name calling.

 

[trofimus]

Considering Calvinists do not believe in fate, yup. You need to study.

And considering that he still cannot at least spell the words correctly (calvanist, armenian...).

 

[preacher4truth]

And considering that he still cannot at least spell the words correctly (calvanist, armenian...).

I mean, what can one expect when the moniker itself is a typo?

 

[Depleted]

I can't stand it this is a crock,especially after reading what you posted to Eternally Grateful,this is an "atheist" point of view of yours,now God is perfect,but you try to "define him" as perfect "your way" it's like saying "well God can't make his own decisions once he has a mind to do it he has to do it" which is more B O L O G N A,God has changed his mind a fare few times in the bible or as the term is coined "repented".
When the people of Israel made and worshipped a golden calf and his anger was "waxed hot" he told Moses "let me alone so that I might consume them in my wrath and make of thee a great nation" but Moses "reflected" God's knowledge back to him in that it would be foolish and so God"repented"(changed his mind) of what he sought to do to the Israelites,God makes his decisions,"Not us" he isn't God by "our definition" he's God because "he is" or can one forget what he also told Moses "I am that I am" "our definition" doesn't mean even a hill of beans.

Do you believe God's mind is perfect? Truly perfect, as in not one whoopsie, not one missed thing, not one error?

If you don't, then why bother with God at all? If he's not perfect, he's no more or no less than we are.

If you do, than back at you -- What was the deal with God changing his mind? To change from perfect has to mean impoerfect, so why would God do the imperfect?

In the case of Moses, by the time that happened, God had spent over 430 years planning an executing creating himself a nation. It started with one dude in Ur minding his own business (raising sheep. lol) He told that one guy to leave his own land because God was going to make a nation out of him. He even showed him where that promised land would be and why he couldn't do it yet. And much to Abraham's surprise, God kept his word. (Oh, come on. Get real. If you're in your 70s and God tells you your going to have a son, you might believe him. But if it's 15 years later, and you don't have the son yet, and your wife is postmenopausal, so never giving you a son, you're going to be shocked when she does give you a son, just like God promised. Not faulting Abraham for being surprised. lol)

And much to the surprise of everyone, Issac, and then Jacob, had sons. Jacob had a lot of them. And it took 400 more years for those people -- by then slaves -- to get to the point of heading to that promise land. The number is staggering. Counting the women and children, roughly the size of Chicago walked across that dried out sea to go to that Promise Land. Same walk took Jacob a few days to take. Took them 40 years!

All that, and you think God is going to change his mind and start over? He was angry. He hit all the way to wrathful. He did want to wipe them out and start over. BUT what happened? Moses begged for mercy! BEGGED!

Look back through the whole of the Bible for mercy beggars. There were a lot of them. I remember Lot. Lot begged for mercy over Sodom and Gomorrah. (Not 50, Lord. How about ten?) This wasn't the only time Moses begged. David begged. Peter begged! Paul begged! Every single person who ever came to the Lord begged. YOU begged! I begged!

Why? Because God tells us to have mercy. And because God is merciful. God wanted to wipe that lot out right smack at the bottom of that mountain. He did not, because Moses begged. And Moses begged, because God had given him plenty of mercy already! (Oh, come on. Moses did NOT want to be the leader. He did NOT want to go to Pharaoh. He didn't even want to be their leader at times when he was their leader. And yet, God gave him mercy and strength. Strength enough to ask for mercy for the others.)

God had a plan. Part of his plan -- a huge part -- is to show his mercy. And because of that, he sometimes honors his peeps when they beg for mercy, by giving mercy. Perfect mind/will begat perfect mind/will. I'm very thankful for that, as I beg his mercy often. And when he gives me mercy, I also know that was part of his plan all along, because sure enough, he got me to ask for mercy.

 

[Depleted]

I hear ya everyone's "experience" can be different when coming to believe in God/Jesus and the bible,but well actually some like atheists choose to believe whatever but actually to some degree you have to "choose" some of what you believe,like for instant my churches have primarily been Baptist so one could assume that I believe all their beliefs like...women must where dresses,or go to church or end up in hell,but I don't,now do I think these can be good things to do,yes,but I don't think it should be a main focus necessarily,like in my case just about a year or so ago I couldn't go to my church anymore.(no ride to get there anymore)
I actually through out that time "felt more spirit filled" than when I was at my church,and wore myself out greeting people,speaking on scripture on here,helping people understand Salvation and Baptism,and itin wasn't from the mere tradition of "going to church" it was from "learning God's word" accepting Salvation and giving my life over to God/Jesus.
For some,things are different they have to go to church or do something that makes them feel of value in order to be able to function,we have our different perspectives and beliefs but so long as we do right by God/Jesus and endure through this wicked world we shall receive what we have awaiting us.

Did you, personally, choose God?

And if you did, what were the pros and cons of that decision?

I mean we look at the pros and cons of a car, if we're buying one. We look at the pros and cons of a job, before we start working there. We look at the pros and cons of a place to live before we choose it. For the important choices we make, we look at pros and cons... and we remember them.

So, if you chose God, what were the pros and cons of that decision? It's a big decision.

(And I have asked that question thousands of times and have never received an answer from anyone.)

 

[Depleted]

In regard to this topic I believe I shall simply state that the answer is in the book of Jonah and it's pretty clear how free will vs God's will works out.

If it was, no one would ask.

Want to give a summary on it?

 

[John146]

If you do, than back at you -- What was the deal with God changing his mind? To change from perfect has to mean impoerfect, so why would God do the imperfect?

God's plan toward wicked Nineveh was to destroy them in forty days. Upon hearing this message of destruction, Nineveh repents and cries out to God. God changed His mind based upon Nineveh's response to His word.

God is perfectly just in His actions. He would have been perfectly just in destroying wicked Nineveh. God was perfectly just in sparing repenting Nineveh.

 

[preacher4truth]

I can't stand it this is a crock,especially after reading what you posted to Eternally Grateful,this is an "atheist" point of view of yours,now God is perfect,but you try to "define him" as perfect "your way" it's like saying "well God can't make his own decisions once he has a mind to do it he has to do it" which is more B O L O G N A,God has changed his mind a fare few times in the bible or as the term is coined "repented"..

You don't know what you're talking about at all. Nor do EG or john146.

 

[Depleted]

“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”[Genesis 22:12]


Here is a verse that open theists love to use to prove that God does not know all things, that He does not have exhaustive foreknowledge. I preached a sermon last month, and used this passage for a Christmas sermon. As I did some further studying, I came to find out that the words 'Now I know' does not mean that He didn't know beforehand if Abraham would actually sacrifice his only promised child, but that it also mean to 'be acquainted with'. It is the same word used in Genesis 22:12 that is used in Isaiah 53:3 when it said 'He was acquainted with our grief.' Yada is the Hebrew word used in Genesis 22:12 and also Isaiah 53:3.

By Abraham being willing to sacrifice his only promised son(Ishmael was his son, too, but not the promised child), God became acquainted with Abraham's grief, knowing that later He would offer up His only Child to die in our stead.

I am NOT a fatalist! It bothers me when people tell others what I am, when I'm not that. And rather than call me that, he (EG) puts it in vague terms that come down to the one word being used too often here -- "they."

It also bothers me when you label other people "open theists" when you aren't randomly calling "them" open theists. You're ticked off at a few people so are grouping all Arminians into the same group.

You're doing the same thing EG is doing -- passive-aggressively lumping everyone into one term. "They," as a word, sucks when all it is used for is to slice-and-dice people.

Two wrongs doesn't make a right, and it's not very godly.

If your theology doesn't become doxology, it's not a good theology.

 

[Depleted]

As I said earlier. What is it about a group of people who think they have to bully everyone else to their point of view? Do they think they will win any converts?

I have no idea, but you're into well over 2000+ pages of doing just that, not enough for you, so you wander into other post to start all over again with YOUR points, so maybe you can teach us.

How's your winning going, considering you're the one thinking this is a contest to be won?