Former pentecostal

[Wansvic]

Tongues (languages spoken supernaturally) would have ceased when the Bible was completed, so by the end of the first century. Why would they return when the reason for this gift was in the past? Modern tongues (glossolalia) are not biblical tongues (glossais).

Post 17 speaks volumes:
"I am always shocked when I see the reason for cessation is the Bible was finished.
The Bible was finished when 22 Church Father's wrote all Gifts still exist and the perfect to come is when we see God face to face.
How can we have such evidence in our Church History but so many refuse the facts?
It's probably why we have so many weak Believers who have never walked in Victory and continue to follow Demonic Dogma. "

 

[Wansvic]

I agree with you Brother!

See The_Watchers_2017 Post #17

 

[TheLearner]

I am always shocked when I see the reason for cessation is the Bible was finished.
The Bible was finished when 22 Church Father's wrote all Gifts still exist and the perfect to come is when we see God face to face.
How can we have such evidence in our Church History but so many refuse the facts?
It's probably why we have so many weak Believers who have never walked in Victory and continue to follow Demonic Dogma.

quotes of those fathers with links please.
Thanks Brother, Friend,
Daniel Marsh

 

[TDidymas]

How eloquent are you then when you speak with God?

So your concern is eloquence? And long prayers?

It reminds me of what Jesus said to the pharisees: "for a pretence make long prayer" (Mat. 23:14, Lk. 20:47).

 

[TDidymas]

you will never see me debating that there is not an issue here with several speaking in Tongues being just pure fiction. when i hear something that resembles tie my bow tie like a ribbon on a blow fly, that person is playing with fire and making a complete mockery.

i was dating a woman, who when i thought was alone, prayed part of my secret prayers Speaking in Tongues (i still do it today and will always do it). her friend was a linguist and they devised a plan to record me praying. evidently, she had heard me before and then during her visit with her friend brought it up and they planned this. they had recorded me 3 times. according to her friend, one had similar dialect to mandarin, one was similar to french, and the other was close to italiano. she was not able to make out concise wording but she also claimed it could not be fake and hitting these specific dialects.

i absolutely knew and believed within myself i was never faking it. and after talking to her myself, she doesn't believe i could be faking it and be so close to 3 specific Languages. i have always noticed when i Speak it Tongues it never has sounded the same as it did the last time i did it. even if i do it 10 times a day, each time has always sounded different to me. i don't know how to explain it. but i am thankful to have her opinion towards it.

I never suggested that tongue talkers are "faking it," although I'm sure some do. I never faked it when I did it, as I was completely sincere in the action. People can be completely sincere in their error, thinking they are pleasing God, when in reality they aren't.

I'm sure you firmly believe what you're saying here, but pardon me if I don't accept your anecdote, because in regard to this issue, Pentecostals and Charismatics are notorious for great embellishments. This is why I require forensic evidence to convince me, since I've had much experience with that. So do you have access to those recordings, that you could provide to me?

 

[TheLearner]

Irenaeus (A.D. 130–200) described these spiritual gifts functioning in his day. He wrote.

Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands of them, and they are made whole (Philip Schaff, Irenaeus Against Heresies Ante-Nicene: 100–325, Vol. 2 of The History of the Christian Church, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973, p. 531).​

Here, in the second and third century, we have evidence of people who have the gift of knowledge as well as the gift of healing.

Later in the third century, in A.D. 257, Novation wrote.

This is he who places the prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, offers discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggest counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts, there are of charismata; and thus makes the Lord’s church everywhere, and in all, perfected, and completed (Philip Schaff, “Treatise Concerning the Trinity, XXIX,” Ante-Nicene: 100–325, vol. 2 of The History of the Christian Church, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973, p. 641).​

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Com...h-history-that-sign-gifts-have-not-ceased.cfm

Justin Martyr, c. A.D. 150
Daily some [Jews] are becoming disciples in the name of Christ and leaving the path of error. These are also receiving gifts, each as he is worthy, illumined through the name of Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another of teaching, and another of the fear of God. (Dialogue with Trypho 39)

Irenaeus, c. A.D. 185
The apostle declares, "We speak wisdom among those who are perfect" [1 Cor. 2:6]. He terms those perfect who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit speak in all languages, as he himself used to speak. Similarly, we also hear many brothers in the Church who possess prophetic gifts and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages. They bring to light the hidden things of men for the general benefit and declare the mysteries of God. These the apostle terms spiritual. They are spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, not because their flesh is stripped off and taken away and they have become purely spiritual [as the gnostics teach]. (Against Heresies V:6:1)

Clement of Alexandria, c. AD 190
"But each one has his own gift from God" [1 Cor. 7:7]—one in one way, one in another, but the apostles were perfected in all. You will find in their acts and writings, then, if you choose, knowledge, life, preaching, righteousness, purity, prophecy. (Miscellanies IV:21)

Apostolic Constitutions: Compilation, 3rd & 4th centuries
With good reason he said to all of us together, when we were perfected concerning those gifts which were given from him by the Spirit: "Now these signs shall follow them that have believed in my name: they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall by no means hurt them; they shall lay their hands on the sick, and they shall recover" [Mark 16:17-18]. These gifts were first bestowed on us apostles when we were about to preach the Gospel to every creature, and afterwards they were, of necessity, provided for those who had believed because of us.

This was not for the advantage of those who perform them, but for the conviction of unbelievers, so that those whom the Word did not persuade, the power of signs might put to shame. Signs are not for us who believe, but for unbelievers, both for Jews and Gentiles. For there is no benefit to us when we cast out demons, but to those who are so cleansed by the power of the Lord. As the Lord himself somewhere instructs us ... "Do not rejoice because the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice because your names are written in heaven" [Luke 10:20].

Since the former is done by his power, but this by our good disposition and diligence—yet, obviously, with his assistance. It is not necessary therefore that every one of the faithful should cast out demons, raise the dead, or speak with tongues, but only one who has been granted this gift for a cause that may be of advantage to the salvation of unbelievers, who are often put to shame not with the demonstration of the world, but by the power of the signs—that is, those that are worthy of salvation.(Apostolic Constitutions VIII:1)

Ambrose, AD 381
God set apostles and set prophets and teachers, gave the gifts of healing, which you find [written] above [par. 149] to be given by the Holy Spirit, and gave various kinds of tongues [lit. languages]. Yet not all are apostles, not all are prophets, not all are teachers. "Not all," says he, "have the gift of healings, nor do all," says he, "speak with tongues" [1 Cor. 12:30]. All of the divine gifts cannot exist in each individual man. Each, according to his capacity, receives that which he either desires or deserves. (On the Holy Spirit II:13:150)

https://www.christian-history.org/spiritual-gifts-quotes.html

These are the only ones I could find in limited time. What are the other 20 or so quotes? Thanks, Daniel

 

[ResidentAlien]

So I decided that cessationist are right. The Bible is " that which is perfect" for when gifts will cease. Now we know how to pray and live. I was a pentecostal for most of my life. But I find that if I ask in prayer the one giving tongues is an evil spirit. You've got to be careful. Not every spirit is of God. Try the spirits.

Hi Jonathan. I'm glad to hear you wised up to Pentecostalism. However, "that which is perfect" can't be the Bible and here's why. 1 Corinthians 13:10-12 says: "But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."

Paul says that when the perfect has come then he will know just as he is known. The complete canon didn't come until long after Paul's death, so "the perfect" can't possibly be the Bible.

I'm not a cessationist, but what passes for signs and wonders in Pentecostalism and elsewhere is as phony as a three-dollar bill. I don't know if sign gifts have ceased, I won't go that far; but from what I can tell the real thing is scarcer than hen's teeth. I've never seen the real deal, and believe me, I'd love to.

 

[CS1]

this is my 3rd Discussion on it. so i am not alarmed, offended, annoyed, baffled. i just am confused how someone can use Tertullian and call him the father of the Trinity but can rebuke him when he makes this claim concerning what is the [[PERFECT TO COME]] mean when the Gifts of Tongues, Knowledge, and Prophecies CEASE:

Tertullian:
refers to the visible manifestation of Jesus


either Tertullian is correct about BOTH Issues or he is Wrong. but there is no he is right about this and wrong about that. we know he was anointed of God, or we would not keep claiming the Trinity Viewpoint he brought forth.

First off Tertullian is the authority on the topic. Ans he can be right one thing and wrong on another. he is not the word of God he is a church "father"


The Meaning of "The Perfect" in 1 Corinthians
there are three views :

1. Associated with something yet to transpire in the eschaton. This position understands the various temporal indicators in 13:8–13 to refer to the “now” on earth and the “then” in the eschatological presence of the Lord.
2. The second position understands teleion as referring to the maturity of the church. to mark the point at which the church reached maturity. Independence is said to have occurred with the coming of the complete will of God as expressed in the finished New Testament canon,
3. understands teleion as referring to something that completed what had already existed in part. This position typically holds that the finished New Testament canon completed the partial revelatory gifts spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13:8–12 and understands the various temporal indicators in vv. 8–13 to refer to the “now” of the apostolic (precanonical) era and the “then” of the post-apostolic (postcanonical) era.

"An investigation into the legitimacy of the canon view is warranted because it seems to have fallen on hard times in today’s theological climate. In a recent work, Richard Gaffin builds his cessationist argument without finding cessationism taught in this passage.5 In another chapter of the same book, Saucy goes so far as to praise Gaffin for doing so. 6 Elsewhere, Gaffin claims that 1 Corinthians 13:8–13 does not specify the time of the cessation of the sign gifts.7 He also says that the view that 1 Corinthians 13:8–13 describes “the point at which the New Testament canon is completed cannot be made credible exegetically.”8 Yet, the canon view should not be so quickly dismissed, since this problem is smaller than those faced by other views."




"There can be no doubt that love is the dominant theme of the final paragraph (1 Corinthians 13:8–13), since both its very first and very last word is love (vv. 8, 13). The chapter’s final paragraph seeks to encourage the Corinthians to pursue a permanent fruit of the Spirit—love—rather than the transitory gifts of the Spirit with which they had become preoccupied. Paul shows the eternality of love by developing two sets of contrasts. First, he contrasts the duration of love with the temporality of the revelatory gifts. He explains that, unlike love, the revelatory gifts will cease (vv. 8–10). He then illustrates the point (vv. 11–12) by describing the cessation of the revelatory gifts as a transition from immaturity to maturity (v. 11) and from limited sight to full sight (v. 12). Second, he contrasts the triad of faith, hope, and love that will exist until Christ’s return (v. 13a) with love alone remaining afterward (v. 13b). In other words, because faith will be replaced by sight at the coming of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:7) and because hope will also be realized at Christ’s coming (Romans 8:24), these virtues will not last beyond Christ’s return.10 However, because love never fails (v. 8a), it will last and thus is the greatest (v. 13b) of the three.11 "

There is nothing in 1cor chapter 13 that says the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. There is nothing in the chapter that says they ceased because of the Canonization. There is nothing in the chapter that says

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. "

It is not referring to the coming of Christ that has been normative throughout the New Testament as the hope of the Church. Not the canonization.

The word of God did not become perfect because of canonization. God's word has always Been Perfect from the time He inspired it and led men to write it.

 

[CS1]

So worship in spirit and truth means dancing? Because David danced. Not that I'm against dancing. But I thought the meat was the Holy Spirit enacting his word in your heart and soul. That your life become conformed to his word.
Seems to me (I could be wrong) that you were trying to be alive by works. We cant accomplish life only his word in us can.

Yes, amen, it is the word of God. We are to be people of the word, amen. Yet worship is to God with all our heart, soul, and strength.

The error in worship by many, including Pentecostals & Charismatics (for which I am a minister) is worship is about you or me. It is not.
Worship is to God, Period.

Our worship and praise to God are seen in many ways throughout Scripture. The church today, I believe, should be active in all.

If you do a study on praise & worship, you will see specific words in Hebrew that show.

Praise & worship to God with or by:

• by hands lifted up
• dancing
• instruments played
• choir singing
• in the assembly
• with banners
• kneeling
• shouting
• laying prostrate

And many more

 

[CS1]

I'm not saying I had demons but Paul had a messenger of Satan to buffet him. And obviously if we have to try the spirits we shouldn't just call every spirit the Holy ghost. You have to pray. You have to find out from God.

The message of satan was not in Paul it was afflicting Paul through people with persecution to keep Him humble because of the Revelation Paul received from the Lord Jesus Christ. If a person is saved and has the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit doesn't weaken because of an evil spirit or a demon, then out of fear leaves, the believer to only be possessed by the devil? That idea is absurd. The Holy Spirit is GOD.

 

[CS1]

The Bible did not complete until 399 AD when the church finaly defined he canon.
Yes, the books were all written by 90 AD and not all local churches accepted all of those books until then.

wrong the church did not finalize the canon even reformers will tell you that. God did. It was canonized because it is the word of God not because "man" said it is.

 

[Dirtman]

Yes, amen, it is the word of God. We are to be people of the word, amen. Yet worship is to God with all our heart, soul, and strength.

The error in worship by many, including Pentecostals & Charismatics (for which I am a minister) is worship is about you or me. It is not.
Worship is to God, Period.

Our worship and praise to God are seen in many ways throughout Scripture. The church today, I believe, should be active in all.

If you do a study on praise & worship, you will see specific words in Hebrew that show.

Praise & worship to God with or by:

• by hands lifted up
• dancing
• instruments played
• choir singing
• in the assembly
• with banners
• kneeling
• shouting
• laying prostrate

And many more

The only thing on that list that doesnt really happen in my church is the dancing, and shouting, that depends on what ya call shouting. But our church is orderly and not what might be called chaotic.

 

[CS1]

The only thing on that list that doesnt really happen in my church is the dancing and shouting, that depends on what ya call shouting. But our church is orderly and not what might be called chaotic.

that ok we should not do something if we are not comfortable with or inspired to do so I know people who can do very strong non-verbal expressions of praise to God

 

[Polar]

Well, if you are that easily offended, best not read my post.
Spelling has never been my strength.

you must be missing your sense of humor

how would I be offended by your lack of spelling ability?

as you say tho....

Again, others opinions have little to no influence on my belief.

 

[Polar]

I have literally run ... been chased around a building and forced to stick me dooks up .... I was just a babe in Christ. But nobody lays their hands on me unless I want them to.

sounds like harassment. every once in awhile you read about someone who was injured or worse, killed, in some kind of ritual in which the spookies tried to cast out a demon. they got it wrong...it's a truth encounter; not a power encounter

...oops here comes that gang of 'postles .... run

... I know what you mean

haha. watch out they don't 'cast their net at you'

 

[Polar]

you put your finger on the crux of the problem. Putting faith ahead of grace. First we wait to receive the grace, when we receive the grace we step out in faith. These things cain't be taught.

This same problem is the cause of 98% of all the excesses we see.

.... waiting on God is the hardest discipline to learn.

the dude was just strange. period

but yes, some very ungodly things have been done with supposed 'faith'.....

 

[Polar]

I simply replied to your post which you volunteered. If you wanted to discuss scripture, you would have done so, but all you have is opinion. My post was to the OP for his info and encouragement, but since you replied to me with hostility, you want me to just lay down to you like a doormat?

But your assumption that modern tongues is of God and is Biblical is questionable. There is something wrong with the picture, since there is a marked difference between the two, and I'm merely pointing out what that difference is. If that gets your goat, then perhaps your belief in that practice is not as strong as you think.

nah

you were insulting and that must be your MO since you are still doing it

this is not a private discussion. kindly park those expectations and try to behave

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

quotes of those fathers with links please.
Thanks Brother, Friend,
Daniel Marsh

it was already given on page 1 by another Member.

 

[Polar]

The way to reason from scripture that the gift of tongues has been put away and fulfilled its purpose is by looking at its purpose and the foundation that was laid by the apostles.

Foundation established.. no need for the tools used to make it.

1 Co 13 isn't the primary passage to use for cessationism.. but what leads....
What the process is that gets the point of the completion of the canon.

Well that is how YOU read it anyway

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

First off Tertullian is the authority on the topic. Ans he can be right one thing and wrong on another. he is not the word of God he is a church "father"


The Meaning of "The Perfect" in 1 Corinthians
there are three views :

1. Associated with something yet to transpire in the eschaton. This position understands the various temporal indicators in 13:8–13 to refer to the “now” on earth and the “then” in the eschatological presence of the Lord.
2. The second position understands teleion as referring to the maturity of the church. to mark the point at which the church reached maturity. Independence is said to have occurred with the coming of the complete will of God as expressed in the finished New Testament canon,
3. understands teleion as referring to something that completed what had already existed in part. This position typically holds that the finished New Testament canon completed the partial revelatory gifts spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13:8–12 and understands the various temporal indicators in vv. 8–13 to refer to the “now” of the apostolic (precanonical) era and the “then” of the post-apostolic (postcanonical) era.

"An investigation into the legitimacy of the canon view is warranted because it seems to have fallen on hard times in today’s theological climate. In a recent work, Richard Gaffin builds his cessationist argument without finding cessationism taught in this passage.5 In another chapter of the same book, Saucy goes so far as to praise Gaffin for doing so. 6 Elsewhere, Gaffin claims that 1 Corinthians 13:8–13 does not specify the time of the cessation of the sign gifts.7 He also says that the view that 1 Corinthians 13:8–13 describes “the point at which the New Testament canon is completed cannot be made credible exegetically.”8 Yet, the canon view should not be so quickly dismissed, since this problem is smaller than those faced by other views."




"There can be no doubt that love is the dominant theme of the final paragraph (1 Corinthians 13:8–13), since both its very first and very last word is love (vv. 8, 13). The chapter’s final paragraph seeks to encourage the Corinthians to pursue a permanent fruit of the Spirit—love—rather than the transitory gifts of the Spirit with which they had become preoccupied. Paul shows the eternality of love by developing two sets of contrasts. First, he contrasts the duration of love with the temporality of the revelatory gifts. He explains that, unlike love, the revelatory gifts will cease (vv. 8–10). He then illustrates the point (vv. 11–12) by describing the cessation of the revelatory gifts as a transition from immaturity to maturity (v. 11) and from limited sight to full sight (v. 12). Second, he contrasts the triad of faith, hope, and love that will exist until Christ’s return (v. 13a) with love alone remaining afterward (v. 13b). In other words, because faith will be replaced by sight at the coming of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:7) and because hope will also be realized at Christ’s coming (Romans 8:24), these virtues will not last beyond Christ’s return.10 However, because love never fails (v. 8a), it will last and thus is the greatest (v. 13b) of the three.11 "

There is nothing in 1cor chapter 13 that says the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. There is nothing in the chapter that says they ceased because of the Canonization. There is nothing in the chapter that says

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. "

It is not referring to the coming of Christ that has been normative throughout the New Testament as the hope of the Church. Not the canonization.

The word of God did not become perfect because of canonization. God's word has always Been Perfect from the time He inspired it and led men to write it.

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. "

what do you think happens when Jesus returns?
are we not changed?


concerning Tertullian, many dislike the fact he later on joined with Montaneus. but the fact he Spoke in Tongues around the 4th Century allows us to see this particular Gift had not ceased and the Written Word was well completed by the end of the 1st Century. this makes his Statement more viable and fits with the Others.