For the believer, when does God forgive sins?
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You are understanding perfectly well on the topic at hand.
The position that "regeneration precedes belief" is unsupported in scripture and a complete outlier promoted by a few people with big voices in the world of theology.
To change the soteriology clearly taught in scripture to "believe" as a condition and a responsibility is a serious matter in my view.
Jesus' sacrifice did provide forgiveness of sin for all. However, not all will take hold of what Jesus died to provide.
Paul explained what happens when people believe and obey God's command to be baptized. Clearly, people did not grasp that their personal sins were dealt with at that point, and this remains true of many today.
Rom 6:3-11
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (See Col 2:10-14)
we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
I think it’s about believing what you learn from it. It’s like a text book full of information, but we read it like it’s a mysterious book that doesn’t mean what it says
Yeah I think we can see what’s happening in scriptire like thisYou are understanding perfectly well on the topic at hand.
The position that "regeneration precedes belief" is unsupported in scripture and a complete outlier promoted by a few people with big voices in the world of theology.
To change the soteriology clearly taught in scripture to "believe" as a condition and a responsibility is a serious matter in my view.
“and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
( Gods work in us doesnt nullify our duty it enables us )
Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life.
And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain.”
Philippians 2:11-16
As we hear and believe the truth and begin to follow in obedience God is working in us on our Will to change it and make it like Christs will but the key is to trust what he says in the gospel
his work in us is here it’s why we have to believe him it’s the truth and only way
“To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.””
John 8:31-32 NIV
His word is what’s working in our hearts and minds to change us our Will and actions we don’t then take the attitude “ I don’t need to do anything he said now , he’s trying to create the attitude “ ll I have to do is trust and listen to and follow my savior “
The Bible is much more than a simple book that can be simply read, understood, and followed. Consider what it is to follow the command to love others as Jesus loves us. While the command itself is simple enough to understand as every Christian knows a measure of the love of Christ, how do sinful people actually love as Christ loves?
Should we make a list of the ways Christ has loved from the gospels and do our best to mimic His behavior? Do we train ourselves by the power of our wills to make a habit of doing these things and avoid doing other things? This is simply to put ourselves back under the law.
While Jesus left us great instruction for what to do, He left us little in the way of how to perform what He has called us to.
It is not until we come to the epistles, and particularly the epistles of Paul, that we learn how to practically live out the life. It is here that we learn how to live in the power of Christ so that it is Christ living in us and through us. It is only in this way that we will love as Christ.
Simply understanding what the Bible says doesn't enable us to perform it.
The Bible itself is not like other books. And reading it is much like collecting seashells. If one goes to the beach, anyone can gather shells from the sand. Better shells can be found if you have a shovel or your hands to dig below the surface. But the most beautiful shells I have found are those which after having gathered shells off the sand and digging, are the ones that are uncovered as I'm just laying on the sand as the waves lap the shore and part the sand to reveal the shells.
In like manner, anyone can read the Bible and learn some truth. Those who dig deeper into the scripture and study and compare scripture with scripture will garner greater insight. But the deepest understanding comes as we meditate upon scripture and God Himself washes over our minds, revealing understanding and wisdom.
I say this not to demean anyone, but to suggest there is much more to scripture than what is on the surface.
Should we make a list of the ways Christ has loved from the gospels and do our best to mimic His behavior? Do we train ourselves by the power of our wills to make a habit of doing these things and avoid doing other things? This is simply to put ourselves back under the law.
While Jesus left us great instruction for what to do, He left us little in the way of how to perform what He has called us to.
It is not until we come to the epistles, and particularly the epistles of Paul, that we learn how to practically live out the life. It is here that we learn how to live in the power of Christ so that it is Christ living in us and through us. It is only in this way that we will love as Christ.
Simply understanding what the Bible says doesn't enable us to perform it.
The Bible itself is not like other books. And reading it is much like collecting seashells. If one goes to the beach, anyone can gather shells from the sand. Better shells can be found if you have a shovel or your hands to dig below the surface. But the most beautiful shells I have found are those which after having gathered shells off the sand and digging, are the ones that are uncovered as I'm just laying on the sand as the waves lap the shore and part the sand to reveal the shells.
In like manner, anyone can read the Bible and learn some truth. Those who dig deeper into the scripture and study and compare scripture with scripture will garner greater insight. But the deepest understanding comes as we meditate upon scripture and God Himself washes over our minds, revealing understanding and wisdom.
I say this not to demean anyone, but to suggest there is much more to scripture than what is on the surface.
Cameron143 ---just because you believe Grace is not a person doesn't make it so -----Jesus is a person who is Full of Grace ----so if Jesus is full of Grace then Grace is in the person ---Jesus is Grace ----
So you can keep believing that Jesus is not Grace that is your right ----but just because you believe that does not make it Bible truth ----
Who appeared to offer Salvation to the world ----Jesus who is Grace appeared -----
Just because it doesn't say right out Jesus is Grace ---the way you want it to so you can believe it ---doesn't means that Jesus is not Grace ---if you do your research on John 1:14 ----and look up the word full in the scripture you will see that Jesus is Grace -----
Strong's Concordance
plérés: full
abounding in, complete
filled up (as opposed to empty): of hollow vessels,
of the soul, thoroughly permeated with: John 1:14; abounding in
Jesus is abounding in grace -----Jesus is filled up with grace ---the person Jesus is grace ----He is our Graced Gift from the Father to Save the world from Sin ------
“The Bible is much more than a simple book that can be simply read, understood, and followed. “
Yea no one’s saying it’s “ a simple book”
its what god actually did say to mankind and not man’s opinion of God but Jesus is presenting himself as is and saying here’s the truth believe it or not
Cameron143 ---just because you believe Grace is not a person doesn't make it so -----Jesus is a person who is Full of Grace ----so if Jesus is full of Grace then Grace is in the person ---Jesus is Grace ----
So you can keep believing that Jesus is not Grace that is your right ----but just because you believe that does not make it Bible truth ----
Who appeared to offer Salvation to the world ----Jesus who is Grace appeared -----
Just because it doesn't say right out Jesus is Grace ---the way you want it to so you can believe it ---doesn't means that Jesus is not Grace ---if you do your research on John 1:14 ----and look up the word full in the scripture you will see that Jesus is Grace -----
Strong's Concordance
plérés: full
abounding in, complete
filled up (as opposed to empty): of hollow vessels,
of the soul, thoroughly permeated with: John 1:14; abounding in
Jesus is abounding in grace -----Jesus is filled up with grace ---the person Jesus is grace ----He is our Graced Gift from the Father to Save the world from Sin ------
“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”
Genesis 6:8 KJV
“Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.”
Genesis 6:9
“And God said unto Noah,
The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood;
“And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
( Noah believed what God was telling him ….the flood was coming if I build the ark I’ll be saved from the end )
…. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
Genesis 6:13-14, 22 KJV
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet,
moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;
by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
Hebrews 11:7KJV
Grace was why God told Noah warned him about the flood and told him how to be saved and his household . Noah believed the word of salvation because god graciously told him all he had to do is believe that would lead him to build the ark and become the hier , like we are , of the righteousness of faith
all because we hear and believe the gospel
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matthew 24:14 KJV
Although babies are born Into sin,they are not under condemnation until the age of accountability.
https://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html
The passage cited most often in support of an age of accountability is 2 Samuel 12:21–23. The context is that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba, with a resulting pregnancy. The prophet Nathan was sent by the Lord to inform David that, because of his sin, the Lord would take the child in death. David responded by grieving and praying for the child. But once the child was taken, David’s mourning ended. David’s servants were surprised to hear this. They said to King David, “What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” David’s response was, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the Lord may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” David’s words might indicate that infants who die are safe in the Lord. David could have simply been referring to the fact that his child was in the grave, but he seemed to be comforted by the knowledge. The peace he felt suggests that he believed he would see his baby son again (in heaven).
Except for the fact that we were made alive while yet dead... according to Scripture.
Whereas you believe you raised yourself from death. Your theology attempts to nullify the grace of God.
Ephesians 2:1-3 You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
Ephesians 2:4-7 ~ Because of His great love for us, God, Who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
I recognize that's how you understand grace. It's not my understanding from scripture.Cameron143 ---just because you believe Grace is not a person doesn't make it so -----Jesus is a person who is Full of Grace ----so if Jesus is full of Grace then Grace is in the person ---Jesus is Grace ----
So you can keep believing that Jesus is not Grace that is your right ----but just because you believe that does not make it Bible truth ----
Who appeared to offer Salvation to the world ----Jesus who is Grace appeared -----
Just because it doesn't say right out Jesus is Grace ---the way you want it to so you can believe it ---doesn't means that Jesus is not Grace ---if you do your research on John 1:14 ----and look up the word full in the scripture you will see that Jesus is Grace -----
Strong's Concordance
plérés: full
abounding in, complete
filled up (as opposed to empty): of hollow vessels,
of the soul, thoroughly permeated with: John 1:14; abounding in
Jesus is abounding in grace -----Jesus is filled up with grace ---the person Jesus is grace ----He is our Graced Gift from the Father to Save the world from Sin ------
I understand the argument from this passage, but the passage never states as you say. I believe God was merely gracious to David and let him know the child was redeemed.
Do you believe Noah was different from the others of his time before he found grace in the eyes of the Lord?
You are full of ... blood. Does that make you blood?just because you believe Grace is not a person doesn't make it so -----Jesus is a person who is Full of Grace ----so if Jesus is full of Grace then Grace is in the person ---Jesus is Grace ----
So you can keep believing that Jesus is not Grace that is your right ----but just because you believe that does not make it Bible truth ----
Who appeared to offer Salvation to the world ----Jesus who is Grace appeared -----
Grace is not given a personal pronoun as it woud have been had Jesus been being identified as grace itself... and that section
of verses go on to say, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Just because you believe Grace is a person doesn't make it so.
I believe God is the same always and doesn’t change based on people we have to repent and change our ways before it’s too late like he wants us too
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 NIV
He’s calling and speaking but many won’t hear it.
“I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.””
Luke 5:32
It’s not important because they don’t believe what he’s saying
“I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
Luke 13:3 NIV
But he’s always saying the same things and calling sinners to hear and believe him before it’s too late
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 NIV
could do this
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”
1 John 1:9 NIV
and trust his word about forgivness and our judgement
“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.””
Luke 6
But there’s always the freedom for us to reject what he said also we can say we don’t have to be judged like everyone else in the church like Paul acknowledged and taught , we can say repentance isn’t part of the deal , we can say o don’t need to do anything I’m already saved already forgiven we’re free to choose whatever trees we wish to eat from and share with others ….
““Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”
John 5:24
Why you never do that lol
lets make a deal Cameron you answer yes or no to my one question that I’ve asked many times then I will … fair ?
just answer yes or no
is this true for Gods children in Christ ?
“For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”
Matthew 6:14-15 NIV
true ?
Yes. It's true of all people.Why you never do that lol
lets make a deal Cameron you answer yes or no to my one question that I’ve asked many times then I will … fair ?
just answer yes or no
is this true for Gods children in Christ ?
“For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”
Matthew 6:14-15 NIV
true ?