Feminism?

[Gideon300]

What it is? Is it a bad thing or a good one? Is it possible to be a Christian and a feminist? I am curious lol coz I heard so much about it....🤔

Jordan Peterson has the best take on feminism that I've come across. He relies on facts, a rare thing these days.

 

[Lanolin]

well Bible goes back a long way to adam and eve where Eve was the first female and supposedly feminist and the battle of the sexes of blaming each other has been going on ever since.

God put hostility between the woman and her enemy. God cursed adam for his disobedeince and made adam rule over eve (this is like putting a kid in charge of a classroom) If women and men ever truly got along, its only because of Jesus.

 

[GaryA]

God put hostility between the woman and her enemy. God cursed adam for his disobedeince and made adam rule over eve (this is like putting a kid in charge of a classroom)

SCREEEEEEEEEECH!

Are you questioning the wisdom of God?

You need to read those verses again - you have not understood them correctly.

God's reaction toward Eve was due to her weakness to the deception of Satan.

God's reaction toward Adam was because he knew better!

In that scenario, Eve is the child in the classroom.

Adam was the teacher - responsible for Eve's understanding of the 'rules'.

God did not actually "curse" Adam. (read it again - more carefully)

Just remember that - what God said to Adam - started with:

"Because thou has hearkened unto the voice of thy wife..."

 

[Moses_Young]

SCREEEEEEEEEECH!

Are you questioning the wisdom of God?

You need to read those verses again - you have not understood them correctly.

God's reaction toward Eve was due to her weakness to the deception of Satan.

God's reaction toward Adam was because he knew better!

In that scenario, Eve is the child in the classroom.

Adam was the teacher - responsible for Eve's understanding of the 'rules'.

God did not actually "curse" Adam. (read it again - more carefully)

Just remember that - what God said to Adam - started with:

"Because thou has hearkened unto the voice of thy wife..."

Exactly. Eve was not a feminist - far from. She was deceived, yes, but it was Adam's job to teach her wisdom. You can imagine how much worse this situation would become if Adam did the right thing, and Eve was a feminist. I think then Eve and the devil only would be sharing the blame/punishment.

 

[cinder]

There are about 4 ways to view that aspect of the fall story that I can see:

1) Adam was standing right there with Eve through the whole conversation with the serpent, didn't do anything to intervene, and they ate the fruit practically simultaneously

2) Eve ate first and Adam was between a rock an a hard place as she was fallen and he wasn't and he chose to throw in his lot with her.

3) The command was given to Adam and only applied to Adam. It was his eating the fruit that precipitated the fall; Eve eating the fruit didn't matter.

4) Adam wasn't with Eve during the conversation with the serpent and didn't know which tree the fruit she brought him came from

I think Christian tradition favors option 1 but don't think that's the only conclusion that can be arrived at by a careful reading of the text (then again maybe I should crack open my Bible and reread the relevant passages carefully in multiple translations before saying that).

 

[Moses_Young]

There are about 4 ways to view that aspect of the fall story that I can see:

1) Adam was standing right there with Eve through the whole conversation with the serpent, didn't do anything to intervene, and they ate the fruit practically simultaneously

2) Eve ate first and Adam was between a rock an a hard place as she was fallen and he wasn't and he chose to throw in his lot with her.

3) The command was given to Adam and only applied to Adam. It was his eating the fruit that precipitated the fall; Eve eating the fruit didn't matter.

4) Adam wasn't with Eve during the conversation with the serpent and didn't know which tree the fruit she brought him came from

I think Christian tradition favors option 1 but don't think that's the only conclusion that can be arrived at by a careful reading of the text (then again maybe I should crack open my Bible and reread the relevant passages carefully in multiple translations before saying that).

I think option 4 is incorrect (the scripture explains Adam was with Eve). Option 2 may be true, but is not mutually exclusive to option 1. And Option 3 is superfluous to the Fall - whether true or not, it doesn't affect the truth of option 1 (note that Adam ate after Eve, not simultaneously).

 

[Lanolin]

haha no
he knew better...but didnt ACT on it, otherwise, he would have stopped Eve, or even if he failed to stop Eve, he would have NOT eaten the fruit when she gave it to him! lol

 

[MissAmerica]

What it is? Is it a bad thing or a good one? Is it possible to be a Christian and a feminist? I am curious lol coz I heard so much about it....🤔

As other posts have indicated, "feminism" can denote many things.

Historically, in the US, there have been three waves of feminism thus far. First wave feminism involved the suffragettes fighting for women's right to vote. The vast majority of American Christians do not have issues with women voting. I don't know of any 21st century Christian groups that object to women voting. (There may be some highly conservative sects out there that would disapprove of it). However, at the time, it was *very* controversial. Women were told they had no need to vote because their husbands' or fathers' votes counted on their behalf. Another smaller part of first wave feminism involved opening some job markets for women. For example, teaching was advocated by some suffragettes as a noble profession for women. During the late 19th century, women (if they were single) were allowed to teach for half the pay that the male teachers received. (As an aside, this NEVER applied to poor women. Poor women have historically always worked outside of the home to help provide for their families--maiding, laundry, cooking, farming, factory work, etc.)

Which leads to second wave feminism. This happened in the 1960s and 70s in the US. During second wave feminism, women were fighting for greater opportunities in education and the workplace, equal pay, financial autonomy (the ability to have a credit card or a checking account without your husband on it), body autonomy (abortion rights, rights in sports, proper criminalization of sexual assault and harassment, etc.), political power (more women in office), etc. There was also the push for the ERA which would have made equality between the sexes in all areas a matter of the constitution. As you can see, this was a much more complex endeavor. While voting rights were clear-cut, there were several philosophical ideas in second wave feminism that required some cultural adaptation. At the time, there was a significant conservative religious pushback on many of these issues. Women like Phyllis Shlafly and Marabel Morgan asserted that women should not work outside of the home (although both of these women definitely had careers outside the home). As a result of second wave feminism, women can now: take on any occupation they chose, attend any higher-level educational institution they qualify for, have access to an abortion (more on this below), open a bank account, get credit cards, buy a house on their own, etc. The proliferation of women in formerly male-dominated fields--doctoring, lawyering, etc.--is a result of second wave feminism. Second wave feminism also led to greater awareness around issues of child care, divorce, domestic violence, sexual assault, pornography, etc.

Most 21st century Christians would be in agreement with much of second wave feminism. Only the most conservative of sects believe that women should not work outside the home, or that women should have limited education, or that women should allow their fathers/husbands to control all money/spending for them. Most American Christian women have benefitted from access to education, jobs, financial resources, etc., as a result of second wave feminism. Of course, the most contentious issue for Christians brought by second wave feminists is abortion. There's no need to explain here why many sects of Christianity object to abortion (nor do I want to get off-topic by doing so). Suffice it to say that this issue is so contentious that some Christians will not identify as feminist based on this issue alone.

The most current wave of feminism is referred to as third wave feminism. This is where most Christians (and people in general) find the greatest difficulties with feminism. Third wave feminism is more philosophical and diverse than previous waves. While some extreme views were mounted during second wave feminism (see Andrea Dworkin, for example), the extremes definitely get more press in third wave feminism. Many people characterize it as anti-male (and there are some elements of it that are this way). Third wave feminism has brought greater attention to sexual assault (the #metoo movement), domestic violence, body positivity, income inequality, etc. While many American Christians would agree with some of these ideas (most want justice for sexual assault and domestic violence victims, for example), there are nuances to many of these issues that some Christians object to. The variance and lack of focus for the movement as a whole causes some to feel that all feminists are anti-male, anti-family values, etc.

I hope this provides some useful information to you.

 

[Kireina]

As other posts have indicated, "feminism" can denote many things.

Historically, in the US, there have been three waves of feminism thus far. First wave feminism involved the suffragettes fighting for women's right to vote. The vast majority of American Christians do not have issues with women voting. I don't know of any 21st century Christian groups that object to women voting. (There may be some highly conservative sects out there that would disapprove of it). However, at the time, it was *very* controversial. Women were told they had no need to vote because their husbands' or fathers' votes counted on their behalf. Another smaller part of first wave feminism involved opening some job markets for women. For example, teaching was advocated by some suffragettes as a noble profession for women. During the late 19th century, women (if they were single) were allowed to teach for half the pay that the male teachers received. (As an aside, this NEVER applied to poor women. Poor women have historically always worked outside of the home to help provide for their families--maiding, laundry, cooking, farming, factory work, etc.)

Which leads to second wave feminism. This happened in the 1960s and 70s in the US. During second wave feminism, women were fighting for greater opportunities in education and the workplace, equal pay, financial autonomy (the ability to have a credit card or a checking account without your husband on it), body autonomy (abortion rights, rights in sports, proper criminalization of sexual assault and harassment, etc.), political power (more women in office), etc. There was also the push for the ERA which would have made equality between the sexes in all areas a matter of the constitution. As you can see, this was a much more complex endeavor. While voting rights were clear-cut, there were several philosophical ideas in second wave feminism that required some cultural adaptation. At the time, there was a significant conservative religious pushback on many of these issues. Women like Phyllis Shlafly and Marabel Morgan asserted that women should not work outside of the home (although both of these women definitely had careers outside the home). As a result of second wave feminism, women can now: take on any occupation they chose, attend any higher-level educational institution they qualify for, have access to an abortion (more on this below), open a bank account, get credit cards, buy a house on their own, etc. The proliferation of women in formerly male-dominated fields--doctoring, lawyering, etc.--is a result of second wave feminism. Second wave feminism also led to greater awareness around issues of child care, divorce, domestic violence, sexual assault, pornography, etc.

Most 21st century Christians would be in agreement with much of second wave feminism. Only the most conservative of sects believe that women should not work outside the home, or that women should have limited education, or that women should allow their fathers/husbands to control all money/spending for them. Most American Christian women have benefitted from access to education, jobs, financial resources, etc., as a result of second wave feminism. Of course, the most contentious issue for Christians brought by second wave feminists is abortion. There's no need to explain here why many sects of Christianity object to abortion (nor do I want to get off-topic by doing so). Suffice it to say that this issue is so contentious that some Christians will not identify as feminist based on this issue alone.

The most current wave of feminism is referred to as third wave feminism. This is where most Christians (and people in general) find the greatest difficulties with feminism. Third wave feminism is more philosophical and diverse than previous waves. While some extreme views were mounted during second wave feminism (see Andrea Dworkin, for example), the extremes definitely get more press in third wave feminism. Many people characterize it as anti-male (and there are some elements of it that are this way). Third wave feminism has brought greater attention to sexual assault (the #metoo movement), domestic violence, body positivity, income inequality, etc. While many American Christians would agree with some of these ideas (most want justice for sexual assault and domestic violence victims, for example), there are nuances to many of these issues that some Christians object to. The variance and lack of focus for the movement as a whole causes some to feel that all feminists are anti-male, anti-family values, etc.

I hope this provides some useful information to you.

Thank you for taking the time I'll read again later to understand it more 🤗

Hope you have a good day/night And welcome to CC @MissAmerica ❤ God bless you ❤

 

[Lanolin]

I would say that the issues surrounding abortion was originally polarised between choice and no choice. Women with money had choice what to do with their child, but women without money had no choice, and usually gave their babies up. Poor women were usually willing because they had a better life if given away. But a rich woman having a unwanted baby was an unspeakable shame.

It was Rich women who wanted abortions. And it not to be a crime. If you read what happend with Roe vs Wade, it was basically Jane Roe used as schill for a rich lawyer woman to have HER abortion.

 

[surfer14]

As other posts have indicated, "feminism" can denote many things.

Historically, in the US, there have been three waves of feminism thus far. First wave feminism involved the suffragettes fighting for women's right to vote. The vast majority of American Christians do not have issues with women voting. I don't know of any 21st century Christian groups that object to women voting. (There may be some highly conservative sects out there that would disapprove of it). However, at the time, it was *very* controversial. Women were told they had no need to vote because their husbands' or fathers' votes counted on their behalf. Another smaller part of first wave feminism involved opening some job markets for women. For example, teaching was advocated by some suffragettes as a noble profession for women. During the late 19th century, women (if they were single) were allowed to teach for half the pay that the male teachers received. (As an aside, this NEVER applied to poor women. Poor women have historically always worked outside of the home to help provide for their families--maiding, laundry, cooking, farming, factory work, etc.)

Which leads to second wave feminism. This happened in the 1960s and 70s in the US. During second wave feminism, women were fighting for greater opportunities in education and the workplace, equal pay, financial autonomy (the ability to have a credit card or a checking account without your husband on it), body autonomy (abortion rights, rights in sports, proper criminalization of sexual assault and harassment, etc.), political power (more women in office), etc. There was also the push for the ERA which would have made equality between the sexes in all areas a matter of the constitution. As you can see, this was a much more complex endeavor. While voting rights were clear-cut, there were several philosophical ideas in second wave feminism that required some cultural adaptation. At the time, there was a significant conservative religious pushback on many of these issues. Women like Phyllis Shlafly and Marabel Morgan asserted that women should not work outside of the home (although both of these women definitely had careers outside the home). As a result of second wave feminism, women can now: take on any occupation they chose, attend any higher-level educational institution they qualify for, have access to an abortion (more on this below), open a bank account, get credit cards, buy a house on their own, etc. The proliferation of women in formerly male-dominated fields--doctoring, lawyering, etc.--is a result of second wave feminism. Second wave feminism also led to greater awareness around issues of child care, divorce, domestic violence, sexual assault, pornography, etc.

Most 21st century Christians would be in agreement with much of second wave feminism. Only the most conservative of sects believe that women should not work outside the home, or that women should have limited education, or that women should allow their fathers/husbands to control all money/spending for them. Most American Christian women have benefitted from access to education, jobs, financial resources, etc., as a result of second wave feminism. Of course, the most contentious issue for Christians brought by second wave feminists is abortion. There's no need to explain here why many sects of Christianity object to abortion (nor do I want to get off-topic by doing so). Suffice it to say that this issue is so contentious that some Christians will not identify as feminist based on this issue alone.

The most current wave of feminism is referred to as third wave feminism. This is where most Christians (and people in general) find the greatest difficulties with feminism. Third wave feminism is more philosophical and diverse than previous waves. While some extreme views were mounted during second wave feminism (see Andrea Dworkin, for example), the extremes definitely get more press in third wave feminism. Many people characterize it as anti-male (and there are some elements of it that are this way). Third wave feminism has brought greater attention to sexual assault (the #metoo movement), domestic violence, body positivity, income inequality, etc. While many American Christians would agree with some of these ideas (most want justice for sexual assault and domestic violence victims, for example), there are nuances to many of these issues that some Christians object to. The variance and lack of focus for the movement as a whole causes some to feel that all feminists are anti-male, anti-family values, etc.

I hope this provides some useful information to you.

This is how incrementalism works. When they were pushing the first wave, do you really think they didn't have subsequent waves in mind? Don't be naive.

 

[MissAmerica]

I would say that the issues surrounding abortion was originally polarised between choice and no choice. Women with money had choice what to do with their child, but women without money had no choice, and usually gave their babies up. Poor women were usually willing because they had a better life if given away. But a rich woman having a unwanted baby was an unspeakable shame.

It was Rich women who wanted abortions. And it not to be a crime. If you read what happend with Roe vs Wade, it was basically Jane Roe used as schill for a rich lawyer woman to have HER abortion.

It is an unfortunate reality that riches provide a means for circumventing all kinds of laws.

 

[Lanolin]

Yea and the whole working woman thing is stupid.
Rich women can afford NOT to work. Poor women, have no choice, they need to work to earn enough to keep a roof over their head, and this has been a fact of life for centuries.

 

[NestForASparrow]

I know that I will upset people no matter my stance on this and please note that I do not aim to upset you.

My view of feminism is that women should be treated with respect and should be able to do the jobs men do. We should also treat men and women the same with respect....I will hold the door open to you whether you are a man or a woman because it's just the courteous thing to do. I also do not have an issue with a woman being a pastor because there are definitely Christian women who are much better at teaching others how to live a Christian life than myself. Also, if I marry a woman who makes more money than I do, I would not find that an issue as that is more money we would have as a family.

That being said, I have read a lot of comments on Facebook in the past from those that I am not sure represent feminism (the term I have seen by those who criticize this behavior refer to it as Third Wave Feminism but I really don't know much about it or why there is a 3rd wave vs a 2nd wave). And I really don't mean to upset others over this, but I find it rather upsetting myself as a minority, is that there those who label themselves feminists who state they can use a term called inter-sectionalism to criticize men from a different racial group. I don't view these individuals as feminists; I view them using feminism as an excuse to attack those they would not normally be able to attack. The Facebook page I usually follow now doesn't have those sort of commenters and I believe it was really the news page that I was following that attracted that type of individual.

Basically, feminism should be used to be uplift women than used to put down anyone. If a woman wants to work, she should be able to work and if a woman wants to be a stay-at-home mom, she should have that freedom as well.

 

[Lanolin]

when you stay at home there is actually HEAPS of work to do - housework. And its unpaid.
Unless you are rich enough to afford maids, it wont get done, because a lot of men think its beneath them to do housework. Of course, men are working all day too, but they dont all wanna work at home AS WELL.

 

[Queza]

I'd rather spend the rest of my life with a dog turd than a feminist.

I'm guessing that because the way you define it.

 

[Queza]

I am pro Wan therefore I am atni-feminist.

Some will argue it is a pro woman's group. Or an equality group.. It's not. Some will argue that was what the original intention of the group was, but even if that were true (and that's a big if) that's not what it is now.

Feminism has become anti male. While at the same time proving they're just as good, if not better than men, by acting like men. That they're against. Confusing eh?

It is also the source of the attempted removal of masculinity from modern culture. It is very liberal and thus pro abortion and pro homosexuality. New Age is the commonly held religious belief.

I get you. I'm not anti-male.

 

[surfer14]

I'm guessing that because the way you define it.

You, Queza, are beautifully and wonderfully made. Don't let yourself be ruined by venturing down the path of feminism. You are NOT in competition with men. Women have their path and their own race, and it's different from that of men. They'll try to tell you that your path is not as important as a man's and how you're nothing if you don't get out there and be like a man. It's a complete lie. Run from anyone tempting you in that way. Resist it with everything you have. I'm serious. Feminism takes God's most awesome and beautiful creation, and turns her into a toxic waste dump of subhuman sludge - because that was the goal of feminism from the very beginning.

 

[Lanolin]

has anybody read or heard the story about Malala

If wanting girls to have education is feminist, then most people are. Its not taking away from boys because they already have access to education. But a lot of males seem to feel threatened by this...which is very odd.

 

[Dino246]

has anybody read or heard the story about Malala

If wanting girls to have education is feminist, then most people are. Its not taking away from boys because they already have access to education. But a lot of males seem to feel threatened by this...which is very odd.

Malala's story is primarily about Islamic repression of women, not feminism in general.