Here you go with self attached branches again. I challenged you to come up with scripture asserting that a few weeks back and you did not revert. Please show how branches become self attached in scripture.
Try again.
Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)
- Thread starter Chris1975
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Here you go with self attached branches again. I challenged you to come up with scripture asserting that a few weeks back and you did not revert. Please show how branches become self attached in scripture.
Try again.
Hebrews 6
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.[SUP]13 [/SUP]For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, [SUP]14 [/SUP]saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]15 [/SUP]And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, [SUP]18 [/SUP]that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might[SUP][e][/SUP] have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, [SUP]20 [/SUP]where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.[SUP]13 [/SUP]For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, [SUP]14 [/SUP]saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]15 [/SUP]And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, [SUP]18 [/SUP]that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might[SUP][e][/SUP] have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, [SUP]20 [/SUP]where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost?
I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, believers obey Him.
Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
None of that says our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell. That is your own perversion of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.
I encourage you to ask the Lord about His wondrous grace and the true gospel so that you will stop trying to send His beloved people into hell. Start preaching the gospel man - it's called "good news" for a reason.
They who have entered into rest have ceased from their own works. If 'we' fellow Jews would enter with them we must not be disobedient. So the disobedient have NOT entered into rest (the rest of faith). They fall before they have entered into rest.
On my walk of faith I have entered into rest and have ceased from my own works.
You may not have, but I have. I have ceased from my own works (Rom 4.4-5).
Yes and Israel as a whole were not believers.
That is why we will not fail
[SUP]
But are you suggesting His grace is insufficient?
We agree, only believers obey Him. Not sure what point you are trying to make?
Those of Israel who fell in the wilderness would disagree with you. They fell due to disobedience as a result of unbelief. They could not enter His rest.
These branches that get cut off are in some way connected to Jesus (Judas Iscariot was one of the 12 disciples, even though he was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus) yet they give and an indication of their true state by the fact that they bear no fruit and do not abide in the vine. If this is not considered "self attached" then what it is? Where is the fruit? Only a spiritual and vital connection produces fruit. Apart from Jesus we can do nothing.
Originally Posted by valiantIt is quite clear he is talking about the Gentile church as a whole and not individuals within it. If they as a whole continue to believe they will remain safe in the olive tree of Israel'. If they become unbelievers they will be cast off. In other words unbelieving Gentiles are in the same position to unbelieving Jews.
A nominal member IS grafted in. It is to Israel, not to the Lord. Just as unbelieving (nominal) Jews were once part of it so now unbelieving (Nominal) Gentiles can be part of it.
Moses didn't enter into the promised land - God's rest at the time either because of his unbelief in the Lord's word and struck the rock 2x times. Is he in hell with the rest of your condemned people of God whom Jesus died and bled for?
Why are you constantly trying to send our Father's beloved children into hell with your false gospel of religious works? Preach the gospel man so that people can grow in the Lord.
By your statement, the whole world (everybody) is grafted into the Vine. That is scripturally incorrect. No. Many are called, few are chosen. They are disqualified by their own disobedience and unbelief.
Moses is in heaven. He made it to the ultimate promised land. As evidenced by Him appearing to Jesus and the three disciples on the mountain.
If Moses continued in his rebellion without repentance, it would not have ended so well for him.
My point was crystal clear. Only believers obey Him in both senses - "in order to become saved/after we have been saved." Unbelievers do not obey Him in either sense.
I don't recall every hearing Christ1975 giving a clear gospel presentation, but he sure likes to talk about works and losing salvation.
That is not true - all the world have been included into Christ on the cross. They still need to believe in order to receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.
Romans 5:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. ( all men now have the opportunity to receive this righteousness done by the Lord's work )
Did you ever read where Peter saw in the vision that the white sheet from heaven came don and God said - what I have cleansed - do not call unclean. The work of salvation is a done deal in heaven's economy and view. But people still need to receive this forgiveness and it comes by believing when we hear the gospel message of Christ Himself.
Jesus being "crucified with 2 thieves" is a representation of everyone in the world being included in Christ's work. One believed and was with the Lord - the other didn't. Jesus is the last Adam and started a whole new race but we need to believe to enter into what He has already done.
I believe - this is part of what Jesus meant when He said "Abide/remain/stay" in Me for without Me you can do nothing. Those that don't - will not bear any fruit and these will end up in the lake of fire. They will chose that for themselves.
I again encourage you to start preaching the true gospel and stop trying to send the Father's beloved children to hell with your false doctrines of self-works righteousness.
He died in this earth because of his unbelief and yet he is in heaven. Must be grace. You see your attempts to throw the Father's children in hell are constantly refuted as being false and Moses himself is a perfect picture of it.