Fallen Nature Testing
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The only problem with your cattle senerio is that God gives every cattle a choice to be BLUE RIBBON (as you say...)
If you wind up second rate dog food it's because you chose to be dog food.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
I'm sure you enjoy LOVE no?
In order for love to be love you must be given a choice....you can't force someone to love you and if you did it would t be considered love
Anybody who ends up in Hell gets what they deserve. Hell was their choice
If you wind up second rate dog food it's because you chose to be dog food.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
I'm sure you enjoy LOVE no?
In order for love to be love you must be given a choice....you can't force someone to love you and if you did it would t be considered love
Anybody who ends up in Hell gets what they deserve. Hell was their choice
Christians should be reasonable but they shouldn't be a bunch of spineless whimps either
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jude 1:3 KJV
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jude 1:3 KJV
B
What's so great about human life?
This life is the valley of the shadow of death, a veil of tears.
Anyway what good would it do to oppose God, we don't even know what the grand scheme is?
And who says he care little about human life? He gave us everything that pertains to life, it is us who have rebelled. Then he suffered along side us as God in the flesh Jesus was born here on earth and lived as one of us, and then suffered for us on the cross.
This life is the valley of the shadow of death, a veil of tears.
Anyway what good would it do to oppose God, we don't even know what the grand scheme is?
And who says he care little about human life? He gave us everything that pertains to life, it is us who have rebelled. Then he suffered along side us as God in the flesh Jesus was born here on earth and lived as one of us, and then suffered for us on the cross.
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One day when I was a little boy, my dad and I were talking about Jesus and
his crucifixion. I was under the impression that he was a victim of
unfortunate circumstances. But my dad corrected me by saying: No, that
was all planned.
I was too young at the time to comprehend the ramifications of my dad's
comment; but years later, while listening to a radio preacher explain it, I
began to realize just how profound my dad's words were-- and still are.
• 1Pet 1:18-20 . .You know that you were redeemed with the precious blood
of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the
creation of the world.
• Rev 13:8 . . The lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
In a nutshell; the two passages above indicate that Christ's crucifixion was
factored into the master plan of creation from before God uttered His famous
words in Gen 1:3, which implies that His son's crucifixion wasn't an EMT sent
to the scene of a train wreck; no, it turns out that God, by means of
precognition, was expecting the fall of man prior to any men even existing
and was standing by, fully prepared for it, i.e. the fall of humanity didn't
take humanity's creator by surprise, viz: His son's crucifixion wasn't a
contingency, rather, the event was scheduled prior to the creation of even
the very first atom, and it took place right on time.
Can you come down from your apologetic moral high ground long enough to
appreciate just how insane a master plan like that appears to normal
people?
This information is strong justification for a very reasonable complaint from
the left. They're angry because it's as if God intended for humanity to fail
just so His son would have someone to die for and show everybody what a
great guy he is; the meanwhile placing millions of people in grave danger of
war, disease, poverty, famine, torture in Hell, and termination in a lake of
brimstone.
_
One day when I was a little boy, my dad and I were talking about Jesus and
his crucifixion. I was under the impression that he was a victim of
unfortunate circumstances. But my dad corrected me by saying: No, that
was all planned.
I was too young at the time to comprehend the ramifications of my dad's
comment; but years later, while listening to a radio preacher explain it, I
began to realize just how profound my dad's words were-- and still are.
• 1Pet 1:18-20 . .You know that you were redeemed with the precious blood
of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the
creation of the world.
• Rev 13:8 . . The lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
In a nutshell; the two passages above indicate that Christ's crucifixion was
factored into the master plan of creation from before God uttered His famous
words in Gen 1:3, which implies that His son's crucifixion wasn't an EMT sent
to the scene of a train wreck; no, it turns out that God, by means of
precognition, was expecting the fall of man prior to any men even existing
and was standing by, fully prepared for it, i.e. the fall of humanity didn't
take humanity's creator by surprise, viz: His son's crucifixion wasn't a
contingency, rather, the event was scheduled prior to the creation of even
the very first atom, and it took place right on time.
Can you come down from your apologetic moral high ground long enough to
appreciate just how insane a master plan like that appears to normal
people?
This information is strong justification for a very reasonable complaint from
the left. They're angry because it's as if God intended for humanity to fail
just so His son would have someone to die for and show everybody what a
great guy he is; the meanwhile placing millions of people in grave danger of
war, disease, poverty, famine, torture in Hell, and termination in a lake of
brimstone.
_
.
• Gen 16:5 . . And Sarai said to Abram: The wrong done me is your fault! I
myself put my maid in your bosom; and now that she sees that she is
expecting, I am lowered in her esteem. The Lord decide between you and
me!
Sarai attempted to take the high moral ground by insinuating that had
Abram been a real man, he would've seen that sleeping with Hagar was a
bad idea and refused. Therefore it was his fault for not putting a stop to her
idea before things got out of hand.
People accuse God of the very same thing all the time. In their mind's eye, if
God were really as wise, loving, omniscient, and all-powerful as He's alleged
to be, then He would never have put the tree of the knowledge of good and
evil in the garden to begin with; and when the Serpent tempted Eve, He
would have stepped in and put a stop to it before things got out of hand.
Therefore, they conclude, it's not the human race's fault for being what it is:
it's God's fault for not protecting us from our own stupidity.
From a strictly natural perspective; the accusation is a reasonable complaint
as I'm sure any of us would've done things very differently than how God
went about it.
_
• Gen 16:5 . . And Sarai said to Abram: The wrong done me is your fault! I
myself put my maid in your bosom; and now that she sees that she is
expecting, I am lowered in her esteem. The Lord decide between you and
me!
Sarai attempted to take the high moral ground by insinuating that had
Abram been a real man, he would've seen that sleeping with Hagar was a
bad idea and refused. Therefore it was his fault for not putting a stop to her
idea before things got out of hand.
People accuse God of the very same thing all the time. In their mind's eye, if
God were really as wise, loving, omniscient, and all-powerful as He's alleged
to be, then He would never have put the tree of the knowledge of good and
evil in the garden to begin with; and when the Serpent tempted Eve, He
would have stepped in and put a stop to it before things got out of hand.
Therefore, they conclude, it's not the human race's fault for being what it is:
it's God's fault for not protecting us from our own stupidity.
From a strictly natural perspective; the accusation is a reasonable complaint
as I'm sure any of us would've done things very differently than how God
went about it.
_
Would you prefer to live in a robotical world were God gave you no choice? Everything was prearranged and you had no choice but to serve him.
Dont you understand that by God giving humanity the OPTION TO CHOOSE He also gave us the greatest....most powerful emotion....THE ABILITY TO LOVE!!
Can you imagine a world where love doesn't exist?
Dont you understand that by God giving humanity the OPTION TO CHOOSE He also gave us the greatest....most powerful emotion....THE ABILITY TO LOVE!!
Can you imagine a world where love doesn't exist?
I am quite comfortable with such passages since I accept the simpler explanation that God is above our judgment and can do whatever he wants. As such, I don’t see God as cruel since that is nonsensical to say by someone whose judgement faculties came from God and only towards judging our life on earth to survive. Exceeding the purpose of our judgment faculties by judging God makes no sense as such and God is beyond any standard of judgment. How does one even begin to judge God? He is God. He lives like a God. Nothing truly affects God since he can redo anything if he wants. God is beyond us.
The only thing I agree about in your talk is in reference to “emotional reactions” in people to God’s decisions. Yes, godless people react without having the right context and rational assessment, and judge God like a man. That is folly to begin with so I could not sympathize with any emotions that come out of it. After all, this is all invited by Satan.
I wouldn’t call God cruel since that implies evil. I would call God almighty and possessing brutal power.
I wouldn’t call God unfair since it’s already more than fair enough that God created us and gave us the experience of life. He didn’t have to do that and we are eternally indebted to God even if we breathe just one breath.
I wouldn’t call God unloving by the same token since it was a grand gesture of love to even conceive of me in the first place. Everything else is small and negligible compared to this grand gesture, so who am I to question God whenever he decides what happens in my life?
May God bless everyone with faith, humility, and protection from Satan and his trickery in thoughts, emotions, and actions.
The only thing I agree about in your talk is in reference to “emotional reactions” in people to God’s decisions. Yes, godless people react without having the right context and rational assessment, and judge God like a man. That is folly to begin with so I could not sympathize with any emotions that come out of it. After all, this is all invited by Satan.
I wouldn’t call God cruel since that implies evil. I would call God almighty and possessing brutal power.
I wouldn’t call God unfair since it’s already more than fair enough that God created us and gave us the experience of life. He didn’t have to do that and we are eternally indebted to God even if we breathe just one breath.
I wouldn’t call God unloving by the same token since it was a grand gesture of love to even conceive of me in the first place. Everything else is small and negligible compared to this grand gesture, so who am I to question God whenever he decides what happens in my life?
May God bless everyone with faith, humility, and protection from Satan and his trickery in thoughts, emotions, and actions.
B
Meh, we have choices, God does not compel us to do evil. We do those things of our own volition.
As for moral high horse. I'm not on one. I think you and the left are.
But for your sake I will mount up. So I'm supposed to get all broke up about people who despite their knowledge of good and evil, but continue in evil and then get all indignant about their just due. Sounds a bit like these criminals who whinge on about how mean the police are. So you can carry on a life of crime and then fight the police when you get busted for the 10th time, but the police were bad for tazering fire out of you.
Now you know the difference between being on a moral high horse and just giving an explanation.
This post is moral high horsemanship, the previous (the one you accuses me of being on one) is not.
You made a post accusing God of basically cruelty, and us of some kind of cognitive dissonance, and when disagreed with you accuse is of moral high horsing. That is not how discussion works. That is how radicalism works. It's one is Saul Alinski's rules for radical. Make an assertion, and then shout down and insult anyone who descents.
You expect us to just agree with you but we don't. Because people do have a choice, they choose to be evil. They don't have to be greedy, and violent and commit crimes against others, but they do. I know you will say but God made us knowing it's what we will do, knowing what will happen and causing it to happen are two different things, and we were given a choice.
As for moral high horse. I'm not on one. I think you and the left are.
But for your sake I will mount up. So I'm supposed to get all broke up about people who despite their knowledge of good and evil, but continue in evil and then get all indignant about their just due. Sounds a bit like these criminals who whinge on about how mean the police are. So you can carry on a life of crime and then fight the police when you get busted for the 10th time, but the police were bad for tazering fire out of you.
Now you know the difference between being on a moral high horse and just giving an explanation.
This post is moral high horsemanship, the previous (the one you accuses me of being on one) is not.
You made a post accusing God of basically cruelty, and us of some kind of cognitive dissonance, and when disagreed with you accuse is of moral high horsing. That is not how discussion works. That is how radicalism works. It's one is Saul Alinski's rules for radical. Make an assertion, and then shout down and insult anyone who descents.
You expect us to just agree with you but we don't. Because people do have a choice, they choose to be evil. They don't have to be greedy, and violent and commit crimes against others, but they do. I know you will say but God made us knowing it's what we will do, knowing what will happen and causing it to happen are two different things, and we were given a choice.
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All Christians? I hope not. I'm not shooting Bible verses at you and I'm interested in your perspective and conversing with you.
So far I've found you a very thoughtful and intelligent poster. It appears to me you've posted the unanswerable topic relative to scripture. After further thinking about your post I've concluded that at least half of my solutions are wrong. I keep thinking there's only two answers when in reality if you're totally correct, there's actually no answers, our individual endings are predetermined by the most powerful being in all of creation. In effect we have no free will. If that's true, then the chosen, the saved, are saved before birth and the condemned are condemned before birth. Thus each will do their thing as being the saved and likewise for the condemned, thus the picture show has a perfectly set in stone script with a beginning, middle and ending having been uncompromisingly predetermined.
So should we seek a truthful opposing answer, or attempt to find out which category we're individually awarded? Or just let heavenly decided nature play the game out without our concern? Or would you recommend Atheism?
So far I've found you a very thoughtful and intelligent poster. It appears to me you've posted the unanswerable topic relative to scripture. After further thinking about your post I've concluded that at least half of my solutions are wrong. I keep thinking there's only two answers when in reality if you're totally correct, there's actually no answers, our individual endings are predetermined by the most powerful being in all of creation. In effect we have no free will. If that's true, then the chosen, the saved, are saved before birth and the condemned are condemned before birth. Thus each will do their thing as being the saved and likewise for the condemned, thus the picture show has a perfectly set in stone script with a beginning, middle and ending having been uncompromisingly predetermined.
So should we seek a truthful opposing answer, or attempt to find out which category we're individually awarded? Or just let heavenly decided nature play the game out without our concern? Or would you recommend Atheism?
B
I don't find it to be all that compelling, it's a pigeon hole, am attempt to say checkmate when we don't have even the foggiest view of a very small portion of the picture.
Your reply relies heavenly on Calvinism, but Calvin was only part right, he was part wrong as well, which may as well in the grand scheme be entirely wrong.
I liken this to ancient medicine where they determined sickness is in the blood, so they bled people often killing them. In their partial correctness they were yet entirely wrong.
Your reply relies heavenly on Calvinism, but Calvin was only part right, he was part wrong as well, which may as well in the grand scheme be entirely wrong.
I liken this to ancient medicine where they determined sickness is in the blood, so they bled people often killing them. In their partial correctness they were yet entirely wrong.
Actually I find several contradictions in biblical scripture but as I consider myself a Christian, I trust to faith that there are logical answers to all of them, thus until I find those answers through prayer, I simply have decided to put those issues behind me and keep the faith. This issue that Webers Home presents I have to admit is the most curious and threatening I've confronted so far. I'm simply looking for the answer through faith and prayer and fellowship with other Christians here. If you have a good answer I'd appreciate it.
Being in such a position on end time prophecies is exactly how I am, except for one point.
I believe, and I suppose most do, that when they begin occurring or while they are occurring all who love the Lord will understand perfectly, but not until them. Tha seems reasonable and dtrue to me.
I believe, and I suppose most do, that when they begin occurring or while they are occurring all who love the Lord will understand perfectly, but not until them. Tha seems reasonable and dtrue to me.
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Would you like my unbiased opinion? Well; I sincerely believe that atheism is
far more logical, far more intelligent, and far more realistic than any religion
we might name; e.g. Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism,
Baha'i, and/or Mormonism, etc, etc.
Just in case some of the Christians out there don't know what an unbiased
opinion is; I offer this definition, which can be verified by Webster's.
"Non partisan, and free from all prejudice, partiality, and favoritism."
Many of the Christians that I encounter on internet forums are militant
bigots unwilling to consider the possibility that they believe in something
that isn't so; and that outsiders believe in their own ideologies just as
sincerely and just as strongly.
• 1Cor 10:32-33 . . Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the
Gentiles, nor to the church of God: even as I please all men in all things, not
seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
The main idea there is courtesy with respect to cultural differences, viz:
"tolerance" which can be roughly defined as sympathy or indulgence for
beliefs, practices, and/or life styles differing from, or conflicting with, one's
own.
You would think that Christians would be the most tolerant and the most
courteous people on the internet, mainly because their religion requires
them to be; but no, the way some of them act you'd think that the golden
rule, and/or turning the other cheek, has gone out of vogue.
Anyway, as for a non-religious ideology, I would recommend agnosticism;
which can be roughly defined as an objective position that neither denies nor
affirms the existence of a supreme being due to the absence of acceptable
empirical evidence to prove one way or the other.
I heard an interesting story some years ago that went like this:
A minister was resolutely informed by one of his congregation that they were
sure there's no supreme being. Well; the minister asked the man if he has
been everywhere in the cosmos there is to go. The man answered that the
cosmos is too big to go everywhere there is to go. The minister asked the
man if he knew everything there is to know. The man protested that nobody
knows everything there is to know.
So the minister said: Isn't it possible that there is a supreme being lurking in
one of the places you have yet to go, and information about him resides
somewhere in the knowledge that you have yet to attain? Well; the man was
stumped but at least it made him realize that we can't be dogmatic about
the existence or non existence of a supreme being.
_
Would you like my unbiased opinion? Well; I sincerely believe that atheism is
far more logical, far more intelligent, and far more realistic than any religion
we might name; e.g. Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism,
Baha'i, and/or Mormonism, etc, etc.
Just in case some of the Christians out there don't know what an unbiased
opinion is; I offer this definition, which can be verified by Webster's.
"Non partisan, and free from all prejudice, partiality, and favoritism."
Many of the Christians that I encounter on internet forums are militant
bigots unwilling to consider the possibility that they believe in something
that isn't so; and that outsiders believe in their own ideologies just as
sincerely and just as strongly.
• 1Cor 10:32-33 . . Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the
Gentiles, nor to the church of God: even as I please all men in all things, not
seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
The main idea there is courtesy with respect to cultural differences, viz:
"tolerance" which can be roughly defined as sympathy or indulgence for
beliefs, practices, and/or life styles differing from, or conflicting with, one's
own.
You would think that Christians would be the most tolerant and the most
courteous people on the internet, mainly because their religion requires
them to be; but no, the way some of them act you'd think that the golden
rule, and/or turning the other cheek, has gone out of vogue.
Anyway, as for a non-religious ideology, I would recommend agnosticism;
which can be roughly defined as an objective position that neither denies nor
affirms the existence of a supreme being due to the absence of acceptable
empirical evidence to prove one way or the other.
I heard an interesting story some years ago that went like this:
A minister was resolutely informed by one of his congregation that they were
sure there's no supreme being. Well; the minister asked the man if he has
been everywhere in the cosmos there is to go. The man answered that the
cosmos is too big to go everywhere there is to go. The minister asked the
man if he knew everything there is to know. The man protested that nobody
knows everything there is to know.
So the minister said: Isn't it possible that there is a supreme being lurking in
one of the places you have yet to go, and information about him resides
somewhere in the knowledge that you have yet to attain? Well; the man was
stumped but at least it made him realize that we can't be dogmatic about
the existence or non existence of a supreme being.
_
I have to say, I surely enjoy reading your post. Maybe because you display a very intelligent and well thought out position and give me purpose to join in with your very interesting perspective and opinions. Most of what I find here is self anointed Christians debating stuff I hardly understand.
So, I’m learning you’re really an agnostic? I’ll submit that in my opinion every intelligent and thoughtful Christian and Jew and likely every other religious person is often times agnostic. I’ll admit to it myself. My issue, (for which I’m grateful), is my heart keeps drawing me back to Christ. In a sinful, corrupt world guilty of massive injustice and senseless murders and slaughters, I need a solution I can believe in and it sure as hell isn’t human kind, politics, human science or earthly traditions. Thus I’m perfectly willing to set aside my agnostic contradictions I find in biblical scripture and even your unanswerable spiritual human dilemma revealing the human cattle comparable condition. As Christ commanded Satan to “get behind me,”I also follow his example and thereby pray for understanding. I suggest that option for feeling better about this life. It gives me what I consider to be the only hope available in this life for true justice and a new world of perfect love I’d surely like to find out about. If I’m wrong, I’ll likely never know it. If I’m right and have found favor with my Lord, I’ll know perfect joy.
So, I’m learning you’re really an agnostic? I’ll submit that in my opinion every intelligent and thoughtful Christian and Jew and likely every other religious person is often times agnostic. I’ll admit to it myself. My issue, (for which I’m grateful), is my heart keeps drawing me back to Christ. In a sinful, corrupt world guilty of massive injustice and senseless murders and slaughters, I need a solution I can believe in and it sure as hell isn’t human kind, politics, human science or earthly traditions. Thus I’m perfectly willing to set aside my agnostic contradictions I find in biblical scripture and even your unanswerable spiritual human dilemma revealing the human cattle comparable condition. As Christ commanded Satan to “get behind me,”I also follow his example and thereby pray for understanding. I suggest that option for feeling better about this life. It gives me what I consider to be the only hope available in this life for true justice and a new world of perfect love I’d surely like to find out about. If I’m wrong, I’ll likely never know it. If I’m right and have found favor with my Lord, I’ll know perfect joy.