Faith without works..........

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Free will is directly related to works. They have to be if God is going to judge us based on our choices. Salvation is clearly linked to our works. If we have choice but to act as God wills us there would be no need for judgement.
free will lives in the flesh, which is declared by his word, in John 1, also The flesh has no value to God, and neither does your free will, as free will is the law of sin.


Ephesians 2:10

New International Version



10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do


His works and his faith lives in a new heart and are given when your saved.

And are also spoken into your heart in advance during the building of the heart, to transform you from an unbeliever to a believer. And also enables the heart. And also pricks the conscience of the unsaved.

Yep you have a lot to learn
 
This verse you quoted omits "my brothers", which is stated in verse 40. Jesus was referring to the least of his brothers, who he said in another place are those who do his father's will. Just giving to the poor who are living in sin might make you feel righteous, but it's not what he meant.
NET
And the king will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’
ASV
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.
NIV
He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
NASB
He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
ASV
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me
ERB
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.
ISV
Then he will say to them, ‘I tell all of youo with certainty, since you didn’t do it for one of the least important of these, you didn’t do it for me.
 
NET
And the king will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’
ASV
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.
NIV
He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
NASB
He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
ASV
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me
ERB
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.
ISV
Then he will say to them, ‘I tell all of youo with certainty, since you didn’t do it for one of the least important of these, you didn’t do it for me.

Yeah I get that's not stated in verse 45, but Jesus did make it clear who the sheep are in verse 40, ie, his brethren, which is who he's referring to in verse 45. And again, his brethren are those who do his will.
 
Yeah I get that's not stated in verse 45, but Jesus did make it clear who the sheep are in verse 40, ie, his brethren, which is who he's referring to in verse 45. And again, his brethren are those who do his will.

Any reference Jesus made to his "brethren" and "sisters" was about people alive when Jesus was alive not some future "church." If you care to apply the intent then you must love all people not just your brethren.

Jesus took a dim view of this idea of only taking care of your brethren. In Luke 6 Jesus is clear. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
 
Any reference Jesus made to his "brethren" and "sisters" was about people alive when Jesus was alive not some future "church." If you care to apply the intent then you must love all people not just your brethren.

Jesus took a dim view of this idea of only taking care of your brethren. In Luke 6 Jesus is clear. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

We're talking specifically about the parable of the sheep and goats. Not all of humanity is the sheep; only those who do his will are. The goats are sent away because they did evil to his sheep.
 
  • Like
Reactions: biblestudent78
Being "evil to His sheep" is not in evidence. What is in evidence is Jesus speaking to those who minister in his name to all who are included in His "in need" categories. It only after those who chose to serve these people (all the people in these categories) that what you do determines who are sheep and who are goats. Those that relieve their suffering are sheep. Those that refuse are goats.

All humanity has within it those in need of Christ's servants, of the faith in action not just faith in the pews, of those who show compassion and understand what love requires and those that, over and against those, their religious piety, pass them by. Goats to be roasted.
 
Humanity is comprised of goats and former goats. Your thesis is that all the former goats own no love for the current goats because they are still goats???

Being "evil to His sheep" is not in evidence. What is in evidence is Jesus speaking to those who minister in his name to all who are included in His "in need" categories.

In Jesus description of judgement, what you do and who you serve determines who are sheep and who are goats. Those, motivated by love that relieve suffering are sheep. Those that refuse are goats.

All humanity is in need of Christ's servants who demonstrate their faith by their actions not just their pew-bound faith claims. There are those who show compassion and understand what love requires for life's wounded and those that, in their religious piety, pass them by. They are the roasting Goats. The Good Samaritan demonstrates that even those deemed "religiously wrong" can demonstrate what Love of God and what Love of Neighbor means. It demonstrates we should not believe in the "rightness" of our religion if it does not compel loving compassion for those in need. Those clinging to a self-righteous version of their self-serving religion are the villians in Jesus story.

If Jesus took your perspective that Christians only to take care of other Christians (who hold our exact dogmas) then His story would have been about a Jewish Levite wounded on the side of the road and that was saved by a Jewish Priest. The parable teaches the opposite. That Loving God requires us to love our fellow man in ways of sacrificial service and that is the validation of our religion. The objective is to develop lives of compassion motivated service to all in need.

When we exclude those "whose sins are not forgiven" from our loving service, it might be a good idea to remember that Jesus told us clearly, If do not forgive the sins of others, neither will your sins be forgiven. Strangely, Jesus is telling us that we must love the unlovable first before there is any hope for them. In my opinion, too many religious folks are focused only the souls of others. In so doing they are denying the every human being is created in the image of God and we must respect the whole person, love the whole person and serve the whole person if we expect God to do the same for us. We pretend that our souls are all that counts, but spend our lives praying to God for His loving healing, His loving reconciliation of our families and country and His loving protection none of which have anything to do with our "souls." Our assumption is that God loves the saved but the rest of humanity not so much.

If your theory that Sheep only serve Sheep is correct, then we have to bring out our fine toothed comb to determine which of those claiming to be Christians are and are not sheep. i.e. my sect, my congregation, my denomination and my religious dogmas. Those whose Christianity I reject are all goats in sheep's clothing..

Matthew 25 is either all about theology or it has nothing to do with theology. That is Jesus challenge.
 
Humanity is comprised of goats and former goats. Your thesis is that all the former goats own no love for the current goats because they are still goats???

This is incorrect. Jesus came to find and save his lost sheep, not lost goats that belong to satan. They were his sheep before the foundation of the world. Jesus said it would be better for someone to hang a milestone around their neck and drown in the depth of the sea than to offend one of his sheep. He didn't say that about the rest of the world. The remainder of your argument hangs on this false premise, so I will just ignore it.
 
I disagree, and perhaps this is the crux of our different views on this matter. We were lost sheep because God foreknew us. Those not foreknown are the goats.
I disagree, and perhaps this is the crux of our different views on this matter. We were lost sheep because God foreknew us. Those not foreknown are the goats.

Agreed. I do no believe in predestination. Thus I do not believe all goats born goats will roast in hell because God chose not to chose them and the Blood of Christ is powerless to save them.
 
free will lives in the flesh, which is declared by his word, in John 1, also The flesh has no value to God, and neither does your free will, as free will is the law of sin.


Ephesians 2:10

New International Version



10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do


His works and his faith lives in a new heart and are given when your saved.

And are also spoken into your heart in advance during the building of the heart, to transform you from an unbeliever to a believer. And also enables the heart. And also pricks the conscience of the unsaved.

Yep you have a lot to learn

Its amazing how much some people have to it for to convince themselves errors are correct. Revelation 20:12. Ignorance will be no excuse for you.
 
Its amazing how much some people have to it for to convince themselves errors are correct. Revelation 20:12. Ignorance will be no excuse for you.
eere it's not me who's ignorant, and who are you to decide my salvation ?

Free will lives in the flesh.
John 1
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 
I appreciate you perspective. In my opinion, Paul's wrestling with formerly Jewish Christians about the nature of the Gospel has given those who prefer a totally passive religion a foundation. People equate Paul's council to Jewish Christians about the fact that their Law is not going to connect them the the saving grace of Jesus. We have made all definitions of faith as passive. Sit and believe. There is no repentance because you are already "saved" by our faith claim. There is no need for baptism as it is just a Jewish tradition that was discarded by faith alone. Being born again is just an ambiguous term for attending church regularly.

This passive faith enables a retreat from participation in the work of God in the world. Our job is just to believe. God's job is to do what we want. We pray for others, but not with others. We pray for the healing of others, but provide no healing. We pray for the poor, but prove them no money. We pray for the widows and orphans in hopes of whoever is caring for them will do a good job. We praise the power of God but depend on our political party more. We become highly selective in filtering our bibles. Jesus commands for obedience we convert to just believe. Jesus says if you persevere to the end of your life, you will be saved. We say you get instantaneous salvation when you buy into a pulpit prayer. Paul says faith without love is just noise, but we preach saving faith by agreement with our church's dogmas. The kind of faith we practice creates churches where all the people are of the same race, same educational level, same income level, same dress, same financial priorities, same politics and same social standing.

I agree with you that a holistic perspective of the New Testament demonstrates that faith is love in action. Jesus's actions were motivated by love. Love without action is neither love or faith. Repentance lies at the center of an honest heart. Humility lies at the center of repentance. Paul, when on trial for his life - spoiler alert - he loses, explained his entire message was to preach what he had experienced and to call all to repentance and to produce "the works of repentance." Ever since Martin Luther, repentance, baptism and being born again are replaced by "faith." If what you do in life and who you are in life and who you serve in life is not the will of Jesus our Christ, then at least you have the comfort of your "faith."

The least known and least preached chapter in the New Testament is Matthew 25.
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the king will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?’ Then he will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.’ And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Spot on
 
eere it's not me who's ignorant, and who are you to decide my salvation ?

Free will lives in the flesh.
John 1
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I'm not deciding your salvation so no need to get so dramatic. If you are not free to act then you are not acting out of love.