Faith without works issue .

[Live4Him]

And just remember then the next time you quote ' there s neither Jew nor Greek ' when a ' difference comes up ..Seeing as it looks like you keep moving the goal posts.

What goal posts have I allegedly moved?

The real issue is your ignorance.

"Neither Jew nor Greek" doesn't mean that nobody is a Jew or a Greek.

Instead, it simply means that IN CHRIST one's natural heritage means nothing.

Seriously, how did you ever become so brainwashed?

I honestly cannot imagine that you came to your present belief system without somebody brainwashing you into the same.

i say that because you seemingly have no understanding as to what scriptures actually mean.

Anyhow, I need to head out for a while, so somebody else can refute your never-ending nonsense while I'm gone.

 

[throughfaith]

In other words, you won't admit that what you said was wrong.

No surprise here.

Paul was talking about what he now considers ' dung ' . compared to his identity in Christ .James is writing to who again ?

 

[throughfaith]

What goal posts have I allegedly moved?

The real issue is your ignorance.

"Neither Jew nor Greek" doesn't mean that nobody is a Jew or a Greek.

Instead, it simply means that IN CHRIST one's natural heritage means nothing.

Seriously, how did you ever become so brainwashed?

I honestly cannot imagine that you came to your present belief system without somebody brainwashing you into the same.

i say that because you seemingly have no understanding as to what scriptures actually mean.

Anyhow, I need to head out for a while, so somebody else can refute your never-ending nonsense while I'm gone.

As yet you've not said anything new . Just another Avatar parroting another Avatar .

 

[crossnote]

When he did it there was no one there ,and of course it was written down much later. I believe he was justified by God . Before God in what he did.

Here is when Abraham was first justified...

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
(Gen 15:6)

It really isn't rocket science.

JUSTIFY
OT Words
sadaq [tsadaq, 6663]
tsadaq occurs around forty times and means "justify," "declare righteous," as well as related nuances in a variety of contexts.

 

[breno785au]

When we talk about works accompanying faith or proving faith, I've always wondered what kind of works we are talking about.

 

[throughfaith]

Here is when Abraham was first justified...

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
(Gen 15:6)

It really isn't rocket science.

JUSTIFY
OT Words
sadaq [tsadaq, 6663]
tsadaq occurs around forty times and means "justify," "declare righteous," as well as related nuances in a variety of contexts.

So are you saying
Abraham was justified when he had righteousness imputed to him?

 

[throughfaith]

Here is when Abraham was first justified...

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
(Gen 15:6)

It really isn't rocket science.

JUSTIFY
OT Words
sadaq [tsadaq, 6663]
tsadaq occurs around forty times and means "justify," "declare righteous," as well as related nuances in a variety of contexts.

///Here is when Abraham was first justified...

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
(Gen 15:6)/// Different words .. Its imputed .

 

[throughfaith]

What goal posts have I allegedly moved?

The real issue is your ignorance.

"Neither Jew nor Greek" doesn't mean that nobody is a Jew or a Greek.

Instead, it simply means that IN CHRIST one's natural heritage means nothing.

Seriously, how did you ever become so brainwashed?

I honestly cannot imagine that you came to your present belief system without somebody brainwashing you into the same.

i say that because you seemingly have no understanding as to what scriptures actually mean.

Anyhow, I need to head out for a while, so somebody else can refute your never-ending nonsense while I'm gone.

If ones natural heritage means nothing in christ then why is James writing to the 12 tribes ? if these are just Christians really ?

 

[Guojing]

When we talk about works accompanying faith or proving faith, I've always wondered what kind of works we are talking about.

Hebrews 11 have various examples of work that you seek.

 

[breno785au]

Hebrews 11 have various examples of work that you seek.

So in summary of reading Hebrews 11 the works that accompany faith is trusting God and His promises?

 

[Guojing]

So in summary of reading Hebrews 11 the works that accompany faith is trusting God and His promises?

As James would say "faith without works is dead", without those works, their faith would not have saved them.

For example the case with Abel, if he did not offer the correct sacrifice, his faith would not have saved him. That was why God told Cain after that incident in Genesis 4:6-7

6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Notice carefully that God did not tell Cain he should have "believed well"?

But rather, he told Cain to do well, which in the context of Genesis 4 and Hebrews 11, is to offer the same sacrifice as Abel did.

If Cain were to do that, God would have accepted him, just as Abel was accepted.

 

[breno785au]

As James would say "faith without works is dead", without those works, their faith would not have saved them.

For example the case with Abel, if he did not offer the correct sacrifice, his faith would not have saved him. That was why God told Cain after that incident in Genesis 4:6-7

6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Notice carefully that God did not tell Cain he should have "believed well"?

But rather, he told Cain to do well, which in the context of Genesis 4 and Hebrews 11, is to offer the same sacrifice as Abel did.

If Cain were to do that, God would have accepted him, just as Abel was accepted.

And here we are back to my question. What these works are. I'm talking, practical examples in everyday life.
I see much discussion and debate and faith and works, yet I can't recall much about what these works actually are, so essentially, we don't even know what we are talking about.

 

[Guojing]

And here we are back to my question. What these works are. I'm talking, practical examples in everyday life.
I see much discussion and debate and faith and works, yet I can't recall much about what these works actually are, so essentially, we don't even know what we are talking about.

For us, unlike all the OT saints described in Hebrews 11, our righteousness comes from Christ's work on the cross.

So you are correct, no works are involved for our righteousness on our part (Romans 4:5), we just need to believe by faith that Christ has done all the works required.

That is why David calls us blessed in Romans 4.

 

[crossnote]

So are you saying
Abraham was justified when he had righteousness imputed to him?

///Here is when Abraham was first justified...

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
(Gen 15:6)/// Different words .. Its imputed .

Perhaps you need to look up the definition of 'justify' yourself, (i already gave you a definition) to declare righteous.
Impute=counted as righteous. I think you are trying to pick a fight when there is none.
I'd suggest you build your theology of Justification from Romans chapters 1 through 4 rather than James 2:14-26. Just a suggestion.

 

[crossnote]

And here we are back to my question. What these works are. I'm talking, practical examples in everyday life.
I see much discussion and debate and faith and works, yet I can't recall much about what these works actually are, so essentially, we don't even know what we are talking about.

It doesn't much matter what the works are if the works are not grounded in faith from a justified person.

 

[breno785au]

For us, unlike all the OT saints described in Hebrews 11, our righteousness comes from Christ's work on the cross.

So you are correct, no works are involved for our righteousness on our part (Romans 4:5), we just need to believe by faith that Christ has done all the works required.

That is why David calls us blessed in Romans 4.

Thanks for all your replies, I've learned something today!
Rather than trying to find a census, I'll just mention my thoughts so far
These works so far I think are:
Trusting God at His word and promises (what I learned today)
Forgiveness
Loving people with the love that Christ has for us
Loving your enemies

What else is there that people can add?

 

[breno785au]

It doesn't much matter what the works are if the works are not grounded in faith from a justified person.

Let's assume I'm talking about a person who is grounded in faith...

 

[Live4Him]

For us, unlike all the OT saints described in Hebrews 11, our righteousness comes from Christ's work on the cross.

Just so that I can better understand what you, Guojing (I don't need anybody else answering for you), actually believe, can you please elaborate on your use of the word "us" in what I quoted?

Does this "us" mean New Testament Christians, believing Gentiles, something else...?

Please be as specific in your response as you can be so I don't somehow miscomprehend what you're saying.

For example, if your "us" refers to New Testament Christians, then does that pertain to both believing Israelites/Jews and Gentiles alike.

In other words, please tell me specifically what you believe a Gentile needs to do TODAY to be saved, and specifically what an Israelite or Jew needs to do TODAY to be saved.

Thank you.

 

[tourist]

Faith without works, is like a car without engine...

Both faith and the engine need fuel to perform.

 

[davidsheep88]

I love it how people try to use an act Abraham did decades after God declaired him righteous as the means of his salvation.

I am suprised God had to wait so long before abraham offered his son to know if his faith was justified or not.

I guess thank God he did not die in between those times, he would have been lost forever,

Faith itself is A work we must be in Jesus Christ efforts not our own.