Faith and works?

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Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,504
3,308
113
Frankston, Victoria
christianlife.au
#1
James tells us that faith without works is dead. Jesus did not save us so that we could live as if nothing happened after we were saved. Works do not save us, but they are the outward expression of an inward event.

Those who have read some of my previous posts know that I do not see slavish obedience to the Law or self effort to save us. Not at all. Jesus saves as we put our trust and confidence in Him. However, to be born again is to undergo a transformation that changes the very core of our being, the spirit. That transformation on the inside needs to become the motivation for our whole lives

This is a process. Some advance quickly, some are very slow. Fundamentally, it depends on our willingness to change. Not everyone wants to change. Some see their fallen and defeated state more clearly than others. Some seek to hold onto their personality because they fear what might happen if they let go. It's messy. However, Jesus has set Himself the task of changing us from glory to glory and that He will do, one way or another.

So what have works got to do with it? Everything. That is God's plan for us. It should be our way of life.

"For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life." Ephesians 2:10

God works in us so that we can work for the Kingdom of God. God initiates, inspires and empowers us, yet He rewards us for simply obeying His calling! And there is great joy in obedience in this life as well.

If you plant an apple tree, sooner or later you expect to have a crop of apples. They may not be the finest of apples, but they are better than a barren tree. If you have no crop, there is something wrong with the tree. It is effectively dead.It is of no use to anyone.

If nothing changes in our lives, then we must question our born again experience. Just weeks after I was born again, I met a man that I had a dispute with once. He swindled me in a card game. My bad, I should not have been gambling. He saw a change in me that I did not. He said that I was the happiest man that he'd ever met. That's what Jesus in us is even to unbelievers. I had no words except that he could be as happy if he accepted Christ.

"Good works" is not a burden we must bear to pay for our salvation. The yoke Jesus offers is easy and His burden is light. He never asks us to something without giving us the enabling to do that work. Even if it costs us in time or money, we will be rewarded one way or another. When we pray, "Your will be done", God says to us that He wants His will to be performed through us. That is abundant life in experience.
 
Nov 1, 2024
1,671
531
113
#2
The whole faith/works argument is built on a false premise, ie that the work Paul was talking about in his writings refers to any kind of self effort on our part, which is maligned as a work of the flesh. But this is error because Paul was referring specifically to the works of the law of Moses and nothing else. That old covenant economy still existed in his time, but it does not exist today, nor will it ever exist again.

Therefore, since there is no longer law, there is no longer works of law. The only works that remain are works of faith and works of unbelief. Not believing and doing what Jesus and the apostles said/wrote is unbelief that produces works of the flesh. Believing and doing their words produces works of faith and the spirit.

Christians can and do try to justify themselves by vainly following men's traditions and/or tiny parts of the law, but those are works of unbelief. This includes those who have had a spell cast on their minds that they are totally unable to do God's works, and therefore believe grace is a licence to do nothing and God must do his works through them like they're sock puppets or something,

Works is simply an inescapable reality of life that defines who we are and what we believe

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God, but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:15-16
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 2 Timothy 2:12-13
Then they said to him, What may we do that we may work the works of GOD? Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of GOD, that you believe into the one whom he sent. John 6:28-29
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has strength in anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6

.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
5,261
2,271
113
47
#3
Therefore, since there is no longer law, there is no longer works of law. The only works that remain are works of faith and works of unbelief. Not believing and doing what Jesus and the apostles said/wrote is unbelief that produces works of the flesh. Believing and doing their words produces works of faith and the spirit.
Thank you for explaining this more clearly.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,900
30,890
113
#4
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure;
but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God, but in works they
deny him
, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:15-16

Titus 1:15-16 To the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure. Indeed, both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16They profess to know God, but by their actions they deny Him. They are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed.
:)
 
Oct 24, 2012
16,869
609
113
#5
James tells us that faith without works is dead. Jesus did not save us so that we could live as if nothing happened after we were saved. Works do not save us, but they are the outward expression of an inward event.

Those who have read some of my previous posts know that I do not see slavish obedience to the Law or self effort to save us. Not at all. Jesus saves as we put our trust and confidence in Him. However, to be born again is to undergo a transformation that changes the very core of our being, the spirit. That transformation on the inside needs to become the motivation for our whole lives

This is a process. Some advance quickly, some are very slow. Fundamentally, it depends on our willingness to change. Not everyone wants to change. Some see their fallen and defeated state more clearly than others. Some seek to hold onto their personality because they fear what might happen if they let go. It's messy. However, Jesus has set Himself the task of changing us from glory to glory and that He will do, one way or another.

So what have works got to do with it? Everything. That is God's plan for us. It should be our way of life.

"For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life." Ephesians 2:10

God works in us so that we can work for the Kingdom of God. God initiates, inspires and empowers us, yet He rewards us for simply obeying His calling! And there is great joy in obedience in this life as well.

If you plant an apple tree, sooner or later you expect to have a crop of apples. They may not be the finest of apples, but they are better than a barren tree. If you have no crop, there is something wrong with the tree. It is effectively dead.It is of no use to anyone.

If nothing changes in our lives, then we must question our born again experience. Just weeks after I was born again, I met a man that I had a dispute with once. He swindled me in a card game. My bad, I should not have been gambling. He saw a change in me that I did not. He said that I was the happiest man that he'd ever met. That's what Jesus in us is even to unbelievers. I had no words except that he could be as happy if he accepted Christ.

"Good works" is not a burden we must bear to pay for our salvation. The yoke Jesus offers is easy and His burden is light. He never asks us to something without giving us the enabling to do that work. Even if it costs us in time or money, we will be rewarded one way or another. When we pray, "Your will be done", God says to us that He wants His will to be performed through us. That is abundant life in experience.
I call the born again new life
The Exchanged life, my life for God's risen Sons life to stand in Thanksgiving and praise from God given to us all to love all over the few, which I only did love, not all at first, which was no different that the heathen, so I asked God from within to be born again in his love and mercy, been growing up ever since. Once when I saw Hebrews 5:12-6:3 I ask God to permit to let me see humbly, and God is and has done that and will for anyone else too, thank you
Not that I am perfect at it, rather God is and did it once at that cross for us all to get reconciled as if never once ever sinned, Amazing Col 1, then seeing chapter 2 floors me to this day in his grace amazing to me anyways
Love your post brother
 

JMH

Active member
Nov 30, 2024
175
53
28
#6
Thank you for explaining this more clearly.
How wrong that is to say that there is no law anymore brother..

Matthew 5:17-18
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [a]jot or one [b]tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled"
 
Oct 24, 2012
16,869
609
113
#7
How wrong that is to say that there is no law anymore brother..

Matthew 5:17-18
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [a]jot or one [b]tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled"
yes, the Law today is in place for those not in belief yet to the risen Son Jesus for them
Once anyone believes between God and them personally, and then depending on how God sees you or me or anyone else, God then either frees those person(s) or not!
Since it is God that knows who are who and what is what, seeing the motive of each and every person. Those that just want to know God and not want to harm others, God reveals the truth to them in love and mercy that has overcome this world of death for me at least.
So yes the Law is still in place for the Law breakers, and if whoever it be, under Law is a Law Breaker, especially if trying to do the Law that no other flesh can do but Son that did it first for us to be new in his risen Life to us to just love in the same mercy and truth given us in being willing to die right now, daily at least this I see as the key that opens the door and get given that white robe.
God loves us all y'all time to respond you think? I hope so for us all to finally have the new earth and Heaven come in place Rev. 22
 
Nov 1, 2024
1,671
531
113
#8
The dispensation of the law has vanished. Now everyone is under the law of Christ and will be judged by his words, not Moses' words

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48
 
Oct 24, 2012
16,869
609
113
#9
The dispensation of the law has vanished. Now everyone is under the law of Christ and will be judged by his words, not Moses' words

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48
We are upholding the Law in love and Mercy to all, at least that be the new Law I see and am in process learning g this truth from God over me and any other person, yet listening to all, taking all to my Father in risen son to hear truth over errors, and see to remain harmless as a dove once aware of whatever made aware of as in Matthew 10P:16-20 tells me of
Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,270
1,167
113
New Zealand
#10
The thing is, when James was writing about this, he was writing about how a person's faith can be used to profit others.

That's the context .

Not about losing salvation if a believer isn't working.

Not about how someone gets saved.

Its about using your faith for the profit of others.

If someone does not use their faith like this..they still have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

faith (helping others..being faithful to God) without works, is dead (unused, unfruitful, dormant) ...

Not gone..or never had it.

Look at examples in James 2 he uses. It's not about salvation of the soul.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
5,261
2,271
113
47
#14
Looks like so far only GIdeon and ChristRoseFromtheDead have done a great job explaining what "works" means.
Because just like the word "saved" it's very confusing.

Some say, the law and some say don't even write anything.
You never know.
 
Nov 1, 2024
1,671
531
113
#15
Looks like so far only GIdeon and ChristRoseFromtheDead have done a great job explaining what "works" means.
Because just like the word "saved" it's very confusing.

Some say, the law and some say don't even write anything.
You never know.
I wish there had been an interesting discussion. That's how we sharpen each other
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,814
635
113
#16
Christ said what ever you ask in prayer believe you receive it and you shall have it. Ooh that really upsets some believers. What is faith? its GOD calling those things that be not as though they were. Faith is the substance of things hoped for its the evidence of things not seen. The work is not something you see and do its taking GOD at His word..its knowing its done. Every one of Gods promises never have to ask for them. He already spoke it. So if He already spoke it... all you have to do is know its yours. The joy of the lord is your strength. You are strong in the lord in the power of His might. God has not given you the spirit of fear but of power and love and a sound mind. Goes on and on. Its all HIM. He told you.. you have not because you ask not or you ask wrong. Wrong is ..ooh I need a new car! New House.. new wife hello! Sorry playing. No.. that will never happen. Father I need a way to work a car would really help thank you for it.. I receive it in Jesus name. Then out of no where someone says.. hey I have this old car.. not new but runs great .. I see you have no way to work" on and on and on. Faith with out works is dead.

IT delight your self in the lord and He will give you the desire of your heart. Comment your way to Him trust Him and HE will do it. Hello that's a promise.. you just take Him at His word not what some believer tells you....no no what that really means. Its wise to ask others if you don't know but you pray you seek you ask Him knowing as its written if you know He hears you then you know you have the petitions you asked for. If you doubt.. well let not that man think he will get anything from God.

Pfft.. this is not about getting. Its about faith.. taking God at His word.. you then stand on what He said even though you can not see it feel it you know its done! Its not based on how sinless you are.. that can get in the way hinder but you are righteous in His eyes because you believe in trust in hello faith Jesus Christ what He did. Faith with out works is dead. Forgive me if I have offended.. I know where I am
 
May 13, 2024
17
13
3
#17
yes, the Law today is in place for those not in belief yet to the risen Son Jesus for them
Once anyone believes between God and them personally, and then depending on how God sees you or me or anyone else, God then either frees those person(s) or not!
Since it is God that knows who are who and what is what, seeing the motive of each and every person. Those that just want to know God and not want to harm others, God reveals the truth to them in love and mercy that has overcome this world of death for me at least.
So yes the Law is still in place for the Law breakers, and if whoever it be, under Law is a Law Breaker, especially if trying to do the Law that no other flesh can do but Son that did it first for us to be new in his risen Life to us to just love in the same mercy and truth given us in being willing to die right now, daily at least this I see as the key that opens the door and get given that white robe.
God loves us all y'all time to respond you think? I hope so for us all to finally have the new earth and Heaven come in place Rev. 22
Believers simply belong to a different law this much is made plain by St. Paul: "Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be JOINED TO ANOTHER, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God" (Rom. 7:4).
 
May 13, 2024
17
13
3
#18
The sort of faith that Paul refers to is a formed faith (fides formata), one that is completed by loving works: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any power, but only faith working through love" (Gal. 5:6; cf. Jam. 2:22).
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,811
5,978
113
#19
The sort of faith that Paul refers to is a formed faith (fides formata), one that is completed by loving works: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any power, but only faith working through love" (Gal. 5:6; cf. Jam. 2:22).
Indeed and so part of the doctrine needs to be along these lines

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

coming of course upon the foundation of repentance

“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but I shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26:20, 22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
Oct 24, 2012
16,869
609
113
#20
The thing is, when James was writing about this, he was writing about how a person's faith can be used to profit others.

That's the context .

Not about losing salvation if a believer isn't working.

Not about how someone gets saved.

Its about using your faith for the profit of others.

If someone does not use their faith like this..they still have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

faith (helping others..being faithful to God) without works, is dead (unused, unfruitful, dormant) ...

Not gone..or never had it.

Look at examples in James 2 he uses. It's not about salvation of the soul.
God has revealed you the Love and mercy to all, not just you yourself, thank you