Every “solution” to the problem of evil is itself evil

[FaithWillDo]

The woman caught in adultery wasnt condemned by the people who accused her because of what Jesus said to them. They understood that they were also sinners. Your belief that people have no ability to understand things about our Lord unless they're indwelt by his Spirit isn't true.

Dear Journeyman,
You said:
The woman caught in adultery wasnt condemned by the people who accused her because of what Jesus said to them. They understood that they were also sinners. Your belief that people have no ability to understand things about our Lord unless they're indwelt by his Spirit isn't true.

The story of the woman taken in adultery is an example of Christ's "another tongue". His message is given to us in His spiritual language. The message were are to receive is spiritual and not literal. The message of the story is about when mankind comes out from being under the Law. It is about the Early and Latter Rain. It is about salvation.

I never said that an Early Rain believer has NO ability to understand. They have some but it is in fact, very little. Scripture says that they are near-sighted. But Peter says this spiritual condition is the same as being blind. Here is Christ's teaching on when He gives us "eyes that can see" :

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in "type" by healing a blind man. This "type" is the same "type" which Christ uses with the Old Testament events to teach His spiritual truths.

In verses 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (understanding). This is the same time when an unbeliever is "called out from the world" and becomes a Christian. After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a spiritual symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a “type” of a Called and Chosen believer.

You said:
Otherwise this (verse) is senseless:

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Rom.10:14

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Jn.20:31

These verses are not senseless. Christ has chosen those who are being given understanding in this present age. No one else is given this ability to understand if they have not been chosen. Christ is NOT working to save all mankind in this present age. He is only bringing in the harvest of His First Fruits - those He has chosen.

The truth of scripture is written only for the ones who have been chosen by Christ. He will prepare their hearts to receive it by His spiritual work within them. For all others, truth will remain hidden. He does it this way to teach us to rely on Him for all our needs - to teach us faith. But ultimately, He does it this way because it suits His purpose to do it this way. He doesn't have to explain it to us:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

More verses that teach on this subject:

Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

1 Cor 1:28-29 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Scripture also tells us why the Nation of Israel couldn't see that Christ was their Messiah. It was because Christ did not give them "eyes to see", but ultimately, it was because it suited His own purposes to do so.

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Without the Spirit of God indwelling a person, the truth of God will remain a mystery to them:

1Cor 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

It is for this reason that a person must become a child of God before the truth of scripture will open up to them. It takes the Latter Rain of the Spirit for this to happen.

You said:
Faith in God comes from the ability to understand things, the capacity to learn, which God created all people with.

“I also withheld rain from you,
When there were still three months to the harvest.
I made it rain on one city,
I withheld rain from another city.
One part was rained upon,
And where it did not rain the part withered. So two or three cities wandered to another city to drink water,
But they were not satisfied;
Yet you have not returned to Me,”
Says the LORD. Amos 4:7-8

Amos is teaching that God held back his blessing so people would go to him.

No, God is holding back His blessings to teach them that they need a Savior. In their carnal minded state, they cannot return to Him.

The Israelites were under the Law and approaching Christ by their own works and abilities. The Law was given to them so that they could learn that their own works would save them. Once a person receives this knowledge from Christ, it will lead them to Christ and His salvation of Grace through Faith, the New Covenant. We must rightly divide the Word by the Old Covenant and the New Covenant to understand what it is teaching.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Dear Journeyman,
There was a typo in my last paragraph above. The sentence should read "The Law was given to them so that they could learn that their own works would NOT save them".

Joe

 

[Jeltja]

My understanding of it is that there is no problem of evil. Not that evil doesn't exist (well, it doesn't as an object, it's a category of condemnation by God). The purpose of all creation is to demonstrate God's glory. By both the regenerate and the damned God demonstrates his glory and power. Everyone deserves damnation, and we deserve all the evil that we suffer because of the evil that we do. Only common grace even keeps the world functioning beyond the community of the regenerate. Humans are getting exactly what we deserve, in the measure best suited to Glorify God. If we don't like it or feel it's not fair that's simply an aspect of sin and rebellion, and we should always judge these things according to God's Word, not man's speculation and emotional narcissism.

Doug Wilson, John Piper, John MacArthur all face videos on this subject, and I believe Piper has a book.

 

[Journeyman]

It is only after a person receives the Latter Rain and is converted into a child of God that they will understand. Christ will then no longer be "veiled" to them.

The "rain" of the holy Spirit are the words our Lord spoke,

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Jn.6:63

And Jesus said,

If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead Lk.16:31

The law was given to make us aware that we need Gods' mercy and when our Savior commanded sinners to repent, he wasn't telling them to do something they're incapable of. Yo seem to be teaching "irresistable grace", but the Bible teaches us in many places about the longsuffering of God.....and not because people can't repent,

There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Lk.13:1-3

My sincere friend, Jesus wasn't wasting his breath.

This verse is teaching on WHEN a believer can understand "knowledge". This ability to receive the knowledge of God is given to a chosen believer at the time of the Latter Rain. Only at this time will a chosen believer have their spiritual blindness healed.

Actually, he's telling people that he'll teach knowledge to those weaned off milk. Milk is the basic foundation of repentance and faith toward God, which any human had the ability to understand.

When Paul received the Latter Rain (Baptism of the Holy Spirit), the scales fell from His eyes. This symbolizes the healing of his spiritual blindness. After this happens, he is now weaned from milk and is ready to eat "meat". He is now saved and is converted. He is no longer a child of the Devil but is now a child of God. For this reason, His name is changed from Saul to Paul.

When Paul was blinded, he didn't need the indwelling of the holy Spirit to understand that he better pay attention to what he was told. Please ask any unsaved person if they would listen if that happened to them.

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The "reward" is "life during the ages". This reward is for the Elect, the First Fruits. They will also reign with Christ in the final age.

Those who "suffer loss" is speaking of the rest of mankind who are judged in the Lake of Fire age. The loss they suffer is losing the blessings that the Elect receive. But they will still be saved by fire (judgment).

What changed my life is seeing the love Jesus had (and still has) for sinners while enduring the injustice done to him by sinners. The judgment seat of Christ subjects not only works, but people to fire. Many won't survive it.

While I agree that believers die to their flesh, your belief that believers are the beast who will ultimately be saved is bizarre. The effect of the lof on the unsaved isn't salvation, but complete annihilation.

 

[Journeyman]

Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Here's where the problem lies. Those "In him" means believers,

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? Jas.2:5

James isn't saying all poor people are saved. He means God decided to save people who put their faithin him.[/QUOTE]

 

[FaithWillDo]

The "rain" of the holy Spirit are the words our Lord spoke,

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Jn.6:63

And Jesus said,

If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead Lk.16:31

The law was given to make us aware that we need Gods' mercy and when our Savior commanded sinners to repent, he wasn't telling them to do something they're incapable of. Yo seem to be teaching "irresistable grace", but the Bible teaches us in many places about the longsuffering of God.....and not because people can't repent,

There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Lk.13:1-3

My sincere friend, Jesus wasn't wasting his breath.


Actually, he's telling people that he'll teach knowledge to those weaned off milk. Milk is the basic foundation of repentance and faith toward God, which any human had the ability to understand.


When Paul was blinded, he didn't need the indwelling of the holy Spirit to understand that he better pay attention to what he was told. Please ask any unsaved person if they would listen if that happened to them.


What changed my life is seeing the love Jesus had (and still has) for sinners while enduring the injustice done to him by sinners. The judgment seat of Christ subjects not only works, but people to fire. Many won't survive it.

While I agree that believers die to their flesh, your belief that believers are the beast who will ultimately be saved is bizarre. The effect of the lof on the unsaved isn't salvation, but complete annihilation.

Dear Journeyman,
I have addressed your comments like these several times now with scripture but you will not accept their truth. Repentance and understanding are gifts from God. Christ tells us frequently to do things that we are spiritually incapable of doing. You are making assumptions not based on the truth of God on how He operates within the hearts and minds of mankind. Your understanding of the truth of God should only come from scripture. Pray for Christ to give you understanding.

Christ told the Jews to follow the Law of Moses. Did Christ know that they would not be able to follow it? Of course, He did. Christ tells us to obey the commandants of God. Does He know that we cannot follow them? Of course, He does. We are spiritually marred and subject to vanity. Christ tells us to do good and to love our neighbors but do we do this? No, not in our created spiritual state. Christ tells us to do these things so that after realizing we can't do them, we will turn to Him to empower us. Christ is longsuffering with us so that we will learn to trust God for all our needs. It takes time for us to learn this lesson. We have no "free will" ability or goodness within ourselves to ever be able to please God. Any goodness we might have, comes from Him. We must learn to turn to Christ in "faith" and rely on His works within us for our salvation. This is the lesson we must learn from the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. We must turn to God for all our needs. He is the giver of good gifts and He will give them to us at a time of His own choosing. When He is ready to bless us, He will cause us to see our need, cause us to pray for our need and then satisfy our need.

The reason your understanding and my understanding of scripture is at odds is because we operate under a different paradigm of God. You fit scripture into your world view and of course, I do the same thing. But there are many scriptures whose messages of truth are not hidden by Christ's spiritual language and symbols. You are taking even those easy to understand verses and are forcing them into your paradigm by changing their clear meanings. If you can't find a way to make them fit, you ignore them.

Scripture says that no man can call Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit. That is a foundational teaching of truth. None of your beliefs should ever contradict that truth but many of yours do. Doesn't that bother you? Scripture says that the preparation of our hearts and the answer of our tongue is from the Lord. That is another foundational truth of scripture. None of your beliefs should ever contradict that truth either. When the words of repentance come out of someone's mouth, those words are caused by Christ. He gave them that gift of repentance.

Frequently for me, when Christ is ready to bless me with something, Christ will first make me aware of that need. Then from that knowledge, He will cause me to pray for it. Then in response to my prayer, He will bless me. It is all His work. When I repented of my "works" (belief in the Doctrine of Free Will), He used the same process to cause me to repent.

I used to believe as you do up until I received the Latter Rain in 2005. I was very involved in the church I attended and I believed very much like everyone else in the church. I can look back now and see that I was doing just as you do with scripture. I was making (through mental manipulations) scripture conform to the carnal beliefs I had been taught by others. I never let scripture teach me. I was one of the many blind who was being lead by the blind. It happens to everyone after they are first called out from the world and into the church. Because of that spiritual blindness that we all experience at that time, there are over 2000 denominations/sects of Christianity in the world, all with their own version of the truth. However, NONE of them know the truth.

That time of blindness we all experience is a portion of the longsuffering of Christ which He endures for His Elect. It is the "time, times and half a time" prophesied by Daniel and is the same 3 1/2 years of drought prophesied by Elijah. Once Christ makes one of His Elect "see" the Man of Sin whom they have become, He is then ready to bless them with the Latter Rain and salvation. If you are able to see that your understanding is not what it should be, then pray for understanding. Pray for His gifts. Pray for a love of the truth. He is the only one who can give it to you. You have nothing inside yourself that will help you. Turn to the Lord in faith and He will faithful bless you.

Have you read my conversion testimony? It is in my profile. From it, you can see how Christ operated in my life to bless me with "eyes that can see" and the Latter Rain.

Joe

 

[Journeyman]

Dear Journeyman,
I have addressed your comments like these several times now with scripture but you will not accept their truth. Repentance and understanding are gifts from God. Christ tells us frequently to do things that we are spiritually incapable of doing. You are making assumptions not based on the truth of God on how He operates within the hearts and minds of mankind. Your understanding of the truth of God should only come from scripture. Pray for Christ to give you understanding.

Christ told the Jews to follow the Law of Moses. Did Christ know that they would not be able to follow it? Of course, He did. Christ tells us to obey the commandants of God. Does He know that we cannot follow them? Of course, He does. We are spiritually marred and subject to vanity. Christ tells us to do good and to love our neighbors but do we do this? No, not in our created spiritual state. Christ tells us to do these things so that after realizing we can't do them, we will turn to Him to empower us. Christ is longsuffering with us so that we will learn to trust God for all our needs. It takes time for us to learn this lesson. We have no "free will" ability or goodness within ourselves to ever be able to please God. Any goodness we might have, comes from Him. We must learn to turn to Christ in "faith" and rely on His works within us for our salvation. This is the lesson we must learn from the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. We must turn to God for all our needs. He is the giver of good gifts and He will give them to us at a time of His own choosing. When He is ready to bless us, He will cause us to see our need, cause us to pray for our need and then satisfy our need.

The reason your understanding and my understanding of scripture is at odds is because we operate under a different paradigm of God. You fit scripture into your world view and of course, I do the same thing. But there are many scriptures whose messages of truth are not hidden by Christ's spiritual language and symbols. You are taking even those easy to understand verses and are forcing them into your paradigm by changing their clear meanings. If you can't find a way to make them fit, you ignore them.

Scripture says that no man can call Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit. That is a foundational teaching of truth. None of your beliefs should ever contradict that truth but many of yours do. Doesn't that bother you? Scripture says that the preparation of our hearts and the answer of our tongue is from the Lord. That is another foundational truth of scripture. None of your beliefs should ever contradict that truth either. When the words of repentance come out of someone's mouth, those words are caused by Christ. He gave them that gift of repentance.

Frequently for me, when Christ is ready to bless me with something, Christ will first make me aware of that need. Then from that knowledge, He will cause me to pray for it. Then in response to my prayer, He will bless me. It is all His work. When I repented of my "works" (belief in the Doctrine of Free Will), He used the same process to cause me to repent.

I used to believe as you do up until I received the Latter Rain in 2005. I was very involved in the church I attended and I believed very much like everyone else in the church. I can look back now and see that I was doing just as you do with scripture. I was making (through mental manipulations) scripture conform to the carnal beliefs I had been taught by others. I never let scripture teach me. I was one of the many blind who was being lead by the blind. It happens to everyone after they are first called out from the world and into the church. Because of that spiritual blindness that we all experience at that time, there are over 2000 denominations/sects of Christianity in the world, all with their own version of the truth. However, NONE of them know the truth.

That time of blindness we all experience is a portion of the longsuffering of Christ which He endures for His Elect. It is the "time, times and half a time" prophesied by Daniel and is the same 3 1/2 years of drought prophesied by Elijah. Once Christ makes one of His Elect "see" the Man of Sin whom they have become, He is then ready to bless them with the Latter Rain and salvation. If you are able to see that your understanding is not what it should be, then pray for understanding. Pray for His gifts. Pray for a love of the truth. He is the only one who can give it to you. You have nothing inside yourself that will help you. Turn to the Lord in faith and He will faithful bless you.

Have you read my conversion testimony? It is in my profile. From it, you can see how Christ operated in my life to bless me with "eyes that can see" and the Latter Rain.

Joe

FaithWillDo,
The reason we disagree is that when Jesus commanded us to obey the law, he meant in humility, which is why the law was enacted,

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven...Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Mt.5:3, 5

The "poor in spirit" regard themselves as poor even if they're wealthy, knowing what they have really belongs to God. Being meek speaks for itself.

To obey the law without condemnation, that is, knowing we're no better than others is the point,

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine,and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Mt.7:24

Gods' word instructs us to train our children. When you correct your children, they don't look at you like they don't understand what you're saying.

On another note, when Paul said God would have all men to be saved, he meant people regardless of status, the rich and the poor, regardless of ethnicity, Jews and gentiles. He didn't mean every person who has ever lived is going to be saved,

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; buthe that believeth not shall be damned. Mk.16:15-16

 

[Journeyman]

Have you read my conversion testimony? It is in my profile. From it, you can see how Christ operated in my life to bless me with "eyes that can see" and the Latter Rain.

Joe

I just read it and I'm sorry to hear that you believe the gift of tongues is a language nobody on earth can understand, instead of known foreign languages, divinely given, that the Corinthians were misusing so that nobody in the congregation could understand.

I once explained this misunderstanding in a penecostal church and the pastor told me to "get in the river".

 

[FaithWillDo]

I just read it and I'm sorry to hear that you believe the gift of tongues is a language nobody on earth can understand, instead of known foreign languages, divinely given, that the Corinthians were misusing so that nobody in the congregation could understand.

I once explained this misunderstanding in a penecostal church and the pastor told me to "get in the river".

Dear Journeyman,
I agree that "tongues" is a language but it can be any language, even the language of angels. My wife's experience with what we call "tongues" was only associated with her personal prayer and it usually came with many tears. She was grieving in the Spirit which is what Rom 8:26 teaches. What she experienced was not for the edifying of the church so maybe calling it "tongues" is incorrect but we didn't know what else to call it back then.

1Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

A few weeks later, she was given the gift of prophecy in her prayers which we could understand and that gift was used to edify the church.

1Cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Shortly after our conversion though, her gifts of tongues and prophesy both ceased.

I will say this though, it is my opinion that in the Pentecostal church we attended, the "tongues" with which other members spoke during the service was only learned behavior and was not genuine.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

FaithWillDo,
The reason we disagree is that when Jesus commanded us to obey the law, he meant in humility, which is why the law was enacted,

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven...Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Mt.5:3, 5

The "poor in spirit" regard themselves as poor even if they're wealthy, knowing what they have really belongs to God. Being meek speaks for itself.

To obey the law without condemnation, that is, knowing we're no better than others is the point,

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine,and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Mt.7:24

Gods' word instructs us to train our children. When you correct your children, they don't look at you like they don't understand what you're saying.

On another note, when Paul said God would have all men to be saved, he meant people regardless of status, the rich and the poor, regardless of ethnicity, Jews and gentiles. He didn't mean every person who has ever lived is going to be saved,

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; buthe that believeth not shall be damned. Mk.16:15-16

You said,
On another note, when Paul said God would have all men to be saved, he meant people regardless of status, the rich and the poor, regardless of ethnicity, Jews and gentiles. He didn't mean every person who has ever lived is going to be saved,

No, that is clearly not what Paul meant. You force that understanding onto it because of your worldly paradigm.

Look at these verses:

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Who can this leave out? This is praise which can only come from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We can only confess that Jesus is Lord when we have the Holy Spirit and that confession is "to the glory of the Father". How can it give glory to the Father if these people are not saved? After all, the Father's purpose for sending Christ to mankind was to save us. If Christ fails to save even one person, the work that Christ did for mankind would not be giving glory to the Father. Maybe by mankind's standards it would because mankind frequently fails. But with God, failing to save even one person would be a sin and would not give Him glory.

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Christ came to save mankind and restore our relationship with the Father. There will come a day when all things are reconciled to God. Then God will be "all in all" as the verses below say:

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

All who die "in Adam" is the same all who will be made alive "in Christ". When a person is "in Christ", His blood covers them and they are saved. Who could this possibly leave out?

So when we read verses like these below, why do you believe it means anything other than what it clearly says?

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

To say that "all men" is only referring to different status levels of mankind cannot be true. It makes no sense in light of the phrase "to be testified in due time". The salvation of all mankind is a event that can be testified to be true in "due time" because that event can only happen in the future. Clearly, different status levels of mankind being saved could already be seen during the days of the Apostles, prior to Paul's writing this scripture. It would not need to be testified to be true in "due time". Your understanding of this verse is why I said you are fitting scripture into your preconceived beliefs, beliefs that were taught to you by "blind guides".

God is love and love never fails. Why do you believe that Christ is going to fail most of mankind? Is mankind's supposed "free will" too strong for Christ to overcome? Scripture says that Mankind's "will" is no match for God (Dan 4:35). But Early Rain Christians who have been "made worse than before" (Man of Sin) they were called out, believe that mankind's "free will" can overcome God's "will". They sit in God's temple and make themselves out to be more powerful than God:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Joe







Joe

 

[Journeyman]

Dear Journeyman,
I agree that "tongues" is a language but it can be any language, even the language of angels. My wife's experience with what we call "tongues" was only associated with her personal prayer and it usually came with many tears. She was grieving in the Spirit which is what Rom 8:26 teaches. What she experienced was not for the edifying of the church so maybe calling it "tongues" is incorrect but we didn't know what else to call it back then.

1Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

A few weeks later, she was given the gift of prophecy in her prayers which we could understand and that gift was used to edify the church.

1Cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Shortly after our conversion though, her gifts of tongues and prophesy both ceased.

I will say this though, it is my opinion that in the Pentecostal church we attended, the "tongues" with which other members spoke during the service was only learned behavior and was not genuine.

Joe

Speaking in tongues (foreign languages) is equal to prophecy when the tongue is interpreted because the entire congregation will be edified, instead of just the speaker. People are edified when they understand. Angels have the ability to speak any human language. The belief that God endows people with a language nobody on earth can understand is nonsense.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Speaking in tongues (foreign languages) is equal to prophecy when the tongue is interpreted because the entire congregation will be edified, instead of just the speaker. People are edified when they understand. Angels have the ability to speak any human language. The belief that God endows people with a language nobody on earth can understand is nonsense.

Dear journeyman,
Yes, angels seem to be able to speak any human language but Paul says that they have their own language, too. If a person as the gift of interpretation, then I believe that language of angels can be understood.

Again, my wife's experience was not with "tongues" even though that is what I called it. Her gift was the Spirit making intercession for us because she did not know what she should be praying for. Looking back now, I believe the Spirit was praying for us to come out of Satan's deception, along with all the things necessary for us to be converted. At that time, we didn't know we needed to be converted or that we didn't understand the truth of God's Word - but the Spirit knew and was interceding for us. It was very powerful experience with her and she was certain it was from God. Then later, she received the gift of prophecy. Everything she received "words" concerning were confirmed by their fulfillment. The "word" she received concerning "truth" that the Lord was going to give us (the one in my testimony) was baffling to us when she first received it because we believed that we already understood the truth. Here it is again:

"I am. I know your heart. Seek Me and I will be found. Look deep into My Word. The truth is not to be given by man but only revealed by Me. It is for those whose hearts desire it above the treasures of this world. You must give up all and treasure you will receive. I am the truth and the only way. I am the Lord."

We didn't understand what it was referring to when it said that we "must give up all and treasure you will receive". Were we to give up all our processions? What was the treasure? We didn't know. But once we were converted about a year and a half later, we quickly understood what it meant.

Here is a portion of scripture where Christ talks about "giving up all":

Mat 19:16-22 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

This story above is a teaching about letting go of our "works" so that we can follow Christ by faith and receive "treasure in heaven", the true knowledge of God. It is given to us in "type" which is part of Christ's spiritual language He uses to teach.

In the story, the rich young man is a "type" for Called out believers. The man is a Jew and has received the baptism of Moses (type of the Early Rain). He believes He is rich because He was given the Law (great possessions of "works"). But Christ tells Him he must give up those great possessions so that he can follow Him. To follow Christ, the young man must walk by faith alone. But because the young man had not been chosen (no Latter Rain), he could not let go of approaching Christ by works. He turned away just as the 5 foolish virgins turned away.

Once Christ converted my wife and me, we were able to start receiving the truth in His Word. This verse applied:

Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

After understanding these verses, we then understood the "word" my wife received earlier and its later fulfillment. We soon understood this verse as well:

Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Everyone, after receiving the Early Rain, will eat from this leavened loaf. When we eat from it, we become deceived by Satan. This happens without our knowledge because the leaven is "hidden" in the loaf which we believe to be the truth of Christ. But because it is leavened, it actually teaches us the ways of Satan. His way to approach God is through "works" and that is why the churches of the world created the Doctrine of Free Will. Additionally, notice that the entire loaf is leavened, so all the truth within it has become false. I don't know of any doctrine of orthodox Christianity that is true. Some doctrines have a few elements of truth mixed into them but many of them contain no truth at all. For this reason, an Early Rain believer "must give up all" or they will not be able to receive the true bread from heaven (treasure of God).

Joe

 

[Journeyman]

You said,
On another note, when Paul said God would have all men to be saved, he meant people regardless of status, the rich and the poor, regardless of ethnicity, Jews and gentiles. He didn't mean every person who has ever lived is going to be saved,

No, that is clearly not what Paul meant. You force that understanding onto it because of your worldly paradigm.

Praying for people and being a good example isn't a worldly model. They're acceptable to God, because God desires, not decrees that all men would be saved. That's what Paul is telling Timothy.

Look at these verses:

I will look at them. I won't ignore them, as you have just ignored the passage I cited where our Lord said whoever will not believe the gospel will be damned.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Who can this leave out? This is praise which can only come from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We can only confess that Jesus is Lord when we have the Holy Spirit and that confession is "to the glory of the Father". How can it give glory to the Father if these people are not saved? After all, the Father's purpose for sending Christ to mankind was to save us. If Christ fails to save even one person, the work that Christ did for mankind would not be giving glory to the Father. Maybe by mankind's standards it would because mankind frequently fails. But with God, failing to save even one person would be a sin and would not give Him glory.

Firstly, some will confess Jesus as Lord and then hear him say he never knew them (Mt.7:22-23). Secondly, having loved sinners who abused him, his love never failing even to the point of death, so that men might see the injustice, the sin which was committed against God, does not mean Jesus failed the unrepentant.

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Please read Acts 3:19.

Christ came to save mankind and restore our relationship with the Father. There will come a day when all things are reconciled to God. Then God will be "all in all" as the verses below say:

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

All who die "in Adam" is the same all who will be made alive "in Christ". When a person is "in Christ", His blood covers them and they are saved. Who could this possibly leave out?

In 1Cor.15 Paul is teaching that Jesus is God. "All things put under him" has a dual meaning. God put all things on earth under Adam. It's manifest that everything not only on earth but heaven is under Jesus (Adams Creator).

Being "subdued" or in "subjection" does not mean "less than" or "beneath" in this passage, because the context is THE RESURRECTION. Paul is teaching that when when all things are subdued by the resurrection of Christ, all will see him as he truly is, as God, who redeemed us to himself, by himself....that God may be all in all.

So when we read verses like these below, why do you believe it means anything other than what it clearly says?

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

To say that "all men" is only referring to different status levels of mankind cannot be true. It makes no sense in light of the phrase "to be testified in due time". The salvation of all mankind is a event that can be testified to be true in "due time" because that event can only happen in the future. Clearly, different status levels of mankind being saved could already be seen during the days of the Apostles, prior to Paul's writing this scripture. It would not need to be testified to be true in "due time". Your understanding of this verse is why I said you are fitting scripture into your preconceived beliefs, beliefs that were taught to you by "blind guides".

What's being testified to "in due time" is the Mediator the prophets foretold.

God is love and love never fails. Why do you believe that Christ is going to fail most of mankind? Is mankind's supposed "free will" too strong for Christ to overcome? Scripture says that Mankind's "will" is no match for God (Dan 4:35). But Early Rain Christians who have been "made worse than before" (Man of Sin) they were called out, believe that mankind's "free will" can overcome God's "will". They sit in God's temple and make themselves out to be more powerful than God:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Joe

God decreeing from the beginning the salvation of all believers isn't God failing. The Sons' ministry so that people would have faith isn't Christ failing. God decreeing that unbelievers would be destroyed isn't God failing.

And Joe,
you better take a long look at 2Tim.2:8, because the appearing of our King isn't going to bring salvation to the man of sin.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Praying for people and being a good example isn't a worldly model. They're acceptable to God, because God desires, not decrees that all men would be saved. That's what Paul is telling Timothy.

Dear Journeyman,
You said:
They're acceptable to God, because God desires, not decrees that all men would be saved. That's what Paul is telling Timothy.

I have heard this twist to 1Tim 2:3-6 many times. There are two serious errors with it. Firstly, when "will have" is translated as "desires" (which it shouldn't be), how is Christ's desire to save all mankind going to be testified to be true at some future date? A desire can be testified to be true in the present. Secondly, if you do translate it as "desires", it makes no difference on the outcome because God always accomplishes all that He desires:

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Your understanding requires that you bring God down to the level of mankind who does not always accomplish their desires. 1Tim 2:3-6 clearly says that Christ is going to be the Savior of mankind. You are trying to twist its meaning to make it conform to your world view.

You said:
I will look at them. I won't ignore them, as you have just ignored the passage I cited where our Lord said whoever will not believe the gospel will be damned.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Yes, whoever does not obey the Gospel in this age will be damned. Those who are "damned" is speaking of those who go to judgment without having been saved first. But from their judgment, they too, will be saved.

The penalty of sin is death and all mankind has sinned so all mankind must die. The Elect experience the "first death" in this age but because they are converted before they are judged, they are not "damned". For those who die in their sins in this age, they will be resurrected to judgment BEFORE they are converted. They are "damned" and thrown into Christ's Lake of Fire, where they will experience the "second death". But from that death, they too will be "born again".

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The "Day" it is speaking of is the Day of the Lord when Christ judges mankind. The Elect experience the Day of the Lord early because they are First Fruits. But since they are converted prior to their judgment, they are not damned. Everyone else will go to judgment "unsaved" and are damned because of it. However, Christ will save them through their judgment (fire) but they will suffer loss (the loss of "life during the ages").

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Christ's judgment is not like mankind's judgment. Christ judges us because He loves us and from His judgment we will learn righteousness and be saved. Mankind's judgment is cruel and unloving and does not redeem us.

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

You said:
Firstly, some will confess Jesus as Lord and then hear him say he never knew them (Mt.7:22-23). Secondly, having loved sinners who abused him, his love never failing even to the point of death, so that men might see the injustice, the sin which was committed against God, does not mean Jesus failed the unrepentant.

Those who call Jesus Lord but remain unsaved are approaching Him by their own "works" (Doctrine of Free Will). These are the Early Rain believers who were not chosen. They are "many". After they are resurrected to judgment, Christ will say to them that He never knew them. But from their judgment, they will be taught righteousness and be saved.

Jesus will give the gift of repentance to all mankind so that they will be saved. The Elect receive the gift first in this age, all others will receive it in the final age.

You said:
Please read Acts 3:19.

Acts 3:17-21 'And now, brethren, I have known that through ignorance ye did it, as also your rulers; and God, what things before He had declared through the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ should suffer, He did thus fulfil; reform ye, therefore, and turn back, for your sins being blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

This scripture is speaking of the Nation of Israel crucifying Christ because of their ignorance of the truth which was caused by God and which the prophets foretold. Paul is now telling them to "reform" and have their sins blotted out by accepting Christ. He ends His statement by saying that the prophets foretold of a day when all things will be restored to God.

What is your point? All mankind will be restored to God as I said. Who do you think it is leaving out?

You said:
In 1Cor.15 Paul is teaching that Jesus is God. "All things put under him" has a dual meaning. God put all things on earth under Adam. It's manifest that everything not only on earth but heaven is under Jesus (Adams Creator).

Being "subdued" or in "subjection" does not mean "less than" or "beneath" in this passage, because the context is THE RESURRECTION. Paul is teaching that when when all things are subdued by the resurrection of Christ, all will see him as he truly is, as God, who redeemed us to himself, by himself....that God may be all in all.

Yes, Jesus is God but He is not the supreme God. The Father is of highest authority and is "of" whom are all things.

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Eph 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Jesus is mankind's God, Creator, Savior and Lord. But He is of lower authority than His God and Father. What you said above makes no sense. Christ was sent by His God and Father to save mankind. In the verse, Christ has accomplished this mission and is delivering up the Kingdom of Heaven to His Father so that God the Father will be "all in all".

You said:
What's being testified to "in due time" is the Mediator the prophets foretold.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

So now the thing that is to be "testified to" is that Jesus is the Christ which the prophets foretold and it will be done in the future. That makes no sense at all. That truth is part of the Gospel of Christ which is already being proclaimed. What the verses are saying is that Christ will save all mankind and will have them come unto the knowledge of the truth because He gave Himself as a ransom for all. When Christ's work is finished, the statement will then be testified to be true because the salvation of mankind has been accomplished.

You said:
God decreeing from the beginning the salvation of all believers isn't God failing. The Sons' ministry so that people would have faith isn't Christ failing. God decreeing that unbelievers would be destroyed isn't God failing.

Your Doctrine of Free Will does not relieve God of not accomplishing the word that went out from His mouth. Mankind's "will" is nothing for God to overcome. Your belief in "free will" is causing you to have an incorrect knowledge of the power and nature of God.
You keep bringing God down to the level of mankind.

Continued on the next post...

 

[FaithWillDo]

Praying for people and being a good example isn't a worldly model. They're acceptable to God, because God desires, not decrees that all men would be saved. That's what Paul is telling Timothy.

Continued from the previous post

Journeyman said:
And Joe,
you better take a long look at 2Tim.2:8, because the appearing of our King isn't going to bring salvation to the man of sin.

The Man of Sin will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ appearing at the time of the Latter Rain for each chosen believer. It is a spiritual destruction. We all become the Man of Sin when we are made into a worse creature than before we were called out from the world. But from that destruction, we are "born again" and made into a child of God.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Mankind was spiritually marred and subject to vanity when Christ first made us (Adam). Christ then came into the world to make us into "another vessel" that seemed good for the potter to make. As I have said before, the purpose for this creation is God reproducing Himself. He is making new children. In the end, all mankind will be made into a new vessel, one that will be called a child of God.

Here is how the Man of Sin is made:

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation

Unclean (evil) spirits represent Satan's false truth. Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more (represents the spirit of anti-Christ) since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number EIGHT spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first". Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition the Man of Sin.

After the new believer devolves into a Man of Sin, their deadly head wound that came from the sword of Christ at the time of the Early Rain is healed. The blow by the Sword of Christ was intended to slay their carnal nature (Old man) but because of their spiritual blindness and Satan’s deceptions, the wound is healed and their Old Man continues to live.

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

As a result, they are still represented by the Seven-Headed Beast of Revelation. In case you are unaware, the Seven Headed Beast is a symbol for mankind in our spiritually flawed and carnally minded condition. After our deadly head wound is healed, we have truly "fallen away" and become a Man of Sin who follows the ways of Satan instead of Christ. We are trying to serve two masters. This is the one and only sin (works) that leads to our spiritual death (1John 5:16). From this death, we cannot be renewed by repentance (Heb 6:4-6). It is for this reason that Christ must come to us a second time if we are going to be saved in this age.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Christ “appeared” the first time in the flesh and took away the sins of the world on the cross. When He comes to an unbeliever with the Early Rain, He does not “appear” to them but remains hidden from their understanding. The Early Rain event is not an “appearance”, it is a visitation. When Christ comes to a Called Out believer with the Latter Rain, He “appears” to them at this time. When He comes, He fully heals their spiritual blindness and the Light of His appearing will destroy the Man of Sin whom they have become.

Joe

 

[Journeyman]

Dear journeyman,
Yes, angels seem to be able to speak any human language but Paul says that they have their own language, too. If a person as the gift of interpretation, then I believe that language of angels can be understood.

I believe people took Pauls' statement that "no man understands him" and jumped off the cliff with it.

Again, my wife's experience was not with "tongues" even though that is what I called it. Her gift was the Spirit making intercession for us because she did not know what she should be praying for. Looking back now, I believe the Spirit was praying for us to come out of Satan's deception, along with all the things necessary for us to be converted. At that time, we didn't know we needed to be converted or that we didn't understand the truth of God's Word - but the Spirit knew and was interceding for us. It was very powerful experience with her and she was certain it was from God. Then later, she received the gift of prophecy. Everything she received "words" concerning were confirmed by their fulfillment. The "word" she received concerning "truth" that the Lord was going to give us (the one in my testimony) was baffling to us when she first received it because we believed that we already understood the truth. Here it is again:

"I am. I know your heart. Seek Me and I will be found. Look deep into My Word. The truth is not to be given by man but only revealed by Me. It is for those whose hearts desire it above the treasures of this world. You must give up all and treasure you will receive. I am the truth and the only way. I am the Lord."

We didn't understand what it was referring to when it said that we "must give up all and treasure you will receive". Were we to give up all our processions? What was the treasure? We didn't know. But once we were converted about a year and a half later, we quickly understood what it meant.

Here is a portion of scripture where Christ talks about "giving up all":

Mat 19:16-22 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

This story above is a teaching about letting go of our "works" so that we can follow Christ by faith and receive "treasure in heaven", the true knowledge of God. It is given to us in "type" which is part of Christ's spiritual language He uses to teach.

In the story, the rich young man is a "type" for Called out believers. The man is a Jew and has received the baptism of Moses (type of the Early Rain). He believes He is rich because He was given the Law (great possessions of "works"). But Christ tells Him he must give up those great possessions so that he can follow Him. To follow Christ, the young man must walk by faith alone. But because the young man had not been chosen (no Latter Rain), he could not let go of approaching Christ by works. He turned away just as the 5 foolish virgins turned away.

Once Christ converted my wife and me, we were able to start receiving the truth in His Word. This verse applied:

Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

What's odd is, your theology says there's nothing people can do to find the knowledge of God, but then cite a passage of scripture where God tells people what they can do to find his knowledge.

And the rich mans' problem wasn't doung works for Gods' glory. His problem was that he loved wealth more than God,

And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! Mk.10:23

After understanding these verses, we then understood the "word" my wife received earlier and its later fulfillment. We soon understood this verse as well:

Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Everyone, after receiving the Early Rain, will eat from this leavened loaf. When we eat from it, we become deceived by Satan. This happens without our knowledge because the leaven is "hidden" in the loaf which we believe to be the truth of Christ. But because it is leavened, it actually teaches us the ways of Satan. His way to approach God is through "works" and that is why the churches of the world created the Doctrine of Free Will. Additionally, notice that the entire loaf is leavened, so all the truth within it has become false. I don't know of any doctrine of orthodox Christianity that is true. Some doctrines have a few elements of truth mixed into them but many of them contain no truth at all. For this reason, an Early Rain believer "must give up all" or they will not be able to receive the true bread from heaven (treasure of God).

Joe

The "rain" of the Spirit is the teachings of Christ. People who receive them, whether early (the OT) or latter (the NT) aren't deceived.

 

[Journeyman]

I have heard this twist to 1Tim 2:3-6 many times. There are two serious errors with it. Firstly, when "will have" is translated as "desires" (which it shouldn't be), how is Christ's desire to save all mankind going to be testified to be true at some future date? A desire can be testified to be true in the present.

Paul is speaking of the gospel, presently being testified to for all people until the end of this world, foretold by the prophets

for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. vs.7

Secondly, if you do translate it as "desires", it makes no difference on the outcome because God always accomplishes all that He desires:

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Your understanding requires that you bring God down to the level of mankind who does not always accomplish their desires. 1Tim 2:3-6 clearly says that Christ is going to be the Savior of mankind. You are trying to twist its meaning to make it conform to your world view.

Your problem is that you think the only reason Jesus came into this world was to save everyone,, but he came as a witness. In fact, The Witness for judgment,

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 2Tim.1:9

You're not listening.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I believe people took Pauls' statement that "no man understands him" and jumped off the cliff with it.


What's odd is, your theology says there's nothing people can do to find the knowledge of God, but then cite a passage of scripture where God tells people what they can do to find his knowledge.

And the rich mans' problem wasn't doung works for Gods' glory. His problem was that he loved wealth more than God,

And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! Mk.10:23


The "rain" of the Spirit is the teachings of Christ. People who receive them, whether early (the OT) or latter (the NT) aren't deceived.

Dear Journeyman,
You said:
What's odd is, your theology says there's nothing people can do to find the knowledge of God, but then cite a passage of scripture where God tells people what they can do to find his knowledge.

And the rich mans' problem wasn't doung works for Gods' glory. His problem was that he loved wealth more than God,

And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! Mk.10:23

To understand scripture, a believer must be given "eyes that can see". This is a gift from Christ. When a believer has this gift, they understand that scripture is teaching on spiritual things (my words are spirit) and not physical things.

The Old Covenant is based on man's works and is physical & outward. But the New Covenant is solely Christ's work and is spiritual & inward. The believers who are without spiritual understanding usually apply Christ's teachings as being literal and outward as you are doing with Christ's teaching on the rich man. The called believers who Christ is calling "rich" are those who believe that they are rich in the spiritual sense but Christ says that are in fact, poor. These people are the Jews and nowadays are also the Called out Christians.

In the verses below, Christ is speaking of these believers:

Rev 3:17 So -- because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit thee out of my mouth; because thou sayest -- I am rich, and have grown rich, and have need of nothing, and hast not known that thou art the wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked,

To be "cold" is to be an unbeliever and to be "hot" is to be a converted believer. But the believers who are "lukewarm" are the believers who have been made "worse than before". They are spiritually blind and deceived and their spiritual condition has been made into a Man of Sin. These are the ones who believe they are spiritually rich and are in need of nothing. But Christ says that they are "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked". And for this reason, He will vomit them out of His mouth. In other words, He will say to them that He never knew them.

Here is the story of the rich young man again but this time, try to receive the words of Christ as being spiritual rather than literal.

Mat 19:16-22 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

When Christ is speaking to the young rich man in Mat 19:16-22, Christ tells the man to sell all his "riches" and give the proceeds to the poor. However, Christ is speaking about the man's spiritual riches of this WORLD. These "riches" teach the man that salvation can come through his own "works" (following the Law of Moses). However, the man's riches are false riches because in truth, the man has no ability to keep the Law perfectly. The man is actually spiritually poor because his beliefs are "of this world" and are false.

When Christ answers the young man's question of what he needs to do to inherit life in the ages, Christ tells him to sell his "riches" and give the proceeds to the spiritually poor. However, the man can only understand Christ's words in a carnal and literal way because the man is spiritually blind. The man believes that Christ is telling him to give up all his physical riches. So when the man hears what Christ says, the man goes away sorrowful because he is not willing to give up his earthly riches. But Christ is actually telling the man to give up his worldly spiritual riches (his beliefs in his own "works") so that He can receive "treasure in heaven", the true knowledge of God. If the man would give up his worldly spiritual riches and receive the true spiritual riches of God, He would then be empowered to follow Christ and be made perfect through the New Covenant. The New Covenant is Christ's "works" and is spiritual and inward.

But the man cannot give up his "riches" because Christ has not given him "eyes that can see" (spiritual understanding). To receive those "eyes", the man must be "chosen" by Christ and receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

You said:
The "rain" of the Spirit is the teachings of Christ. People who receive them, whether early (the OT) or latter (the NT) aren't deceived.

Your understanding is not correct.

To understand the meaning of a spiritual term used in scripture, Paul says to "compare spiritual with spiritual". In other words, we are to look within scripture to see how the term is used elsewhere and then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, its true meaning can be discerned.

Water in scripture is the spiritual term used for the Holy Spirit. It can be referred to as "rain" and even "spit". Look at these verses:

Acts 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

Mar 1:8 I indeed did baptize you with water, but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.'

Mar 9:41 for whoever may give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because ye are Christ's, verily I say to you, he may not lose his reward;

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing -- let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting -- let him come; and he who is willing -- let him take the water of life freely.

When Elijah withheld the rain for 3 1/2 years, it was to teach us a spiritual truth that Christ would later fulfill in this age. James included Elijah's prophesy in his teaching on the Early and Latter Rain because it teaches about them:

James 5:17-18 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

The 3 1/2 years is a spiritual term. It is the same as Daniel's time, times and half a time. It is also the same as 3 1/2 days, 1260 days and 42 months. I have mentioned this before in one of my earlier posts. The time of Elijah's drought represents the time between the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit. This time of drought is the time when we "fall away" and are made spiritually worse than before (Man of Sin). Then James says that Elijah prayed again and the heaven gave rain. This "rain" is the Latter Rain when a believer will bring "forth her fruit". This is when a believer is saved.

You understanding of the Early and Latter Rain is not correct.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Paul is speaking of the gospel, presently being testified to for all people until the end of this world, foretold by the prophets

for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. vs.7

Your problem is that you think the only reason Jesus came into this world was to save everyone,, but he came as a witness. In fact, The Witness for judgment,

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 2Tim.1:9

You're not listening.

Dear Journeyman,
You said:
Your problem is that you think the only reason Jesus came into this world was to save everyone,, but he came as a witness. In fact, The Witness for judgment.

Here is what Christ came to do:

Mat 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

As I have said before, "fire" is the spiritual term for Christ's judgment. Christ came to baptize all mankind with the Holy Spirit AND He came to judge all mankind with fire.

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire.

1Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

We cannot be saved without both the Holy Spirit and judgment. Judgment purifies us. For that reason, Christ is anxious to start His judgment upon mankind. Then from His judgment, we will learn righteousness and be redeemed.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Isa 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

You quoted:
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 2Tim.1:9

Here is the verse again when properly translated:

2Thess 1:9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

This verse is speaking of those in the final age who experience judgment in the Lake of Fire. Their judgment is only for the age:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

The "destruction" they experience in the final age is part of the conversion process and is spiritual. Our spiritual condition we have from birth must be destroyed and replaced with a new spiritual condition.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The Elect experience this destruction in this age (first death) but all others will experience it in the final age (second death).

All mankind will be converted from the old vessel, into a new vessel. This is the spiritual work of Christ and it happens because of the "will" of God. Man has no say in the matter.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Joe

 

[Journeyman]

The Old Covenant is based on man's works and is physical & outward.

No it isn't, but that's what it becomes to people who don't examine their own heart by it.

The believers who are without spiritual understanding usually apply Christ's teachings as being literal and outward as you are doing with Christ's teaching on the rich man.

I'm sure theologians have taken Pauls' teachings on works and bastardized them.

Your understanding is not correct.

To understand the meaning of a spiritual term used in scripture, Paul says to "compare spiritual with spiritual". In other words, we are to look within scripture to see how the term is used elsewhere and then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, its true meaning can be discerned.

Hopefully, people will come to understand that the Word and Spirit are One.[/QUOTE]