Even So Faith, If It Hath Not Works, Is Dead, Being Alone.

[PennEd]

I don't understand why there are so many threads about faith and works on this message board????????? All Christians believe that faith is important and all Christians believe that good works are important. So, let each of us go forth into the world and shine our Christian light on it with faith and good works that emanate from our faith.

If there is ONE issue that cannot be vacillated on, and MUST be defended, it is THE Gospel unto Salvation.

ANY changes or alterations of the Gospel cannot be allowed to stand. Here it is:

THE Gospel unto Salvation:
God wrapped Himself in human flesh in the form of His Son, Jesus the Messiah. Conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin. He suffered, was crucified, and died to pay OUR sin debt. He was raised to life from the grave to prove He had defeated death. If you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that His Father resurrected Him to Life on the 3rd day, you WILL be saved. You will be filled, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who will empower ALL to turn from their sins. The sin of adultery, lying, stealing, homosexuality, gossip, slander, drunkenness, covetousness, etc... And most importantly the sin of DEAD works, or a moral life in an attempt to EARN Salvation. He will also equip you to love like He did and do good works for HIS Glory.


So now maybe you understand why so many of us respond to threads inserting some type of works to gain or maintain Salvation.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Don't the Scriptures say that we (in the flesh) cannot perform "good works"... that our good works are as filthy rags, before Him?
Also, that it is God, in us, who works [gives us the ability] to both will and do of His good pleasure?
And again, he who has the Son (or the Spirit), has life, ergo Saved?

So, it would seem to me that we're saved well before we are doing "good works".

By pulling a line from Scripture to support your viewpoint you have changed the meaning completely. In fact, in Isiah 64, the people are imploring God for His help in living righteously. Read Scripture in it's context to arrive at Biblical truth, don't try and arrive at 'truth as you perceive it' by citing quotes out of context. In fact, in Isiah 64, the people are asking for God's forgiveness for acting wickedly (filthy rags) and for abandoning God. They are asking for God's help to do right according to God's ways. So let's put your quote into context and see what it really means.


As when brushwood is set ablaze, or fire makes the water boil! Then your name would be made known to your enemies and the nations would tremble before you, While you worked awesome deeds we could not hope for,
such as had not been heard of from of old.

No ear has ever heard, no eye ever seen, any God but you working such deeds for those who wait for him.
Would that you might meet us doing right, that we might be mindful of you in our ways! Indeed, you are angry; we have sinned, we have acted wickedly.

We have all become like something unclean, all our just deeds are like polluted rags; We have all withered like leaves,
and our crimes carry us away like the wind. There are none who call upon your name, none who rouse themselves to take hold of you; For you have hidden your face from us and have delivered us up to our crimes.

 

[Runningman]

Your comment comes straight from reformed theology. So you DO know what you believe.

I think you’re imagining something I didn’t say, maybe because I didn’t elaborate on it. If the only tool you have is a hammer you may see every perceived problem as a nail. You can just ask what I meant and if you did you would get a better idea of what I was saying instead of just calling me a Calvinist.

I am not referring to unconditional election or the predestination version from Calvinism. I didn’t say some are chosen to be saved and others aren’t.

All are called to repentance and salvation through Christ. Not everyone heeds the call and God’s methods for reaching people aren’t a cookie cutter. He can reach people in a variety of ways.

Can you quote any verse that supports your comment about God choosing you for salvation?

I never claimed that I was predestined. I had the option to reject it if I had so chose, but rather my faith had reached a stage where I could accept the gospel.

I am only using YOUR OWN WORDS. Isn't that enough to know your testimony? What else is there to go by?

I didn’t use the words of the unconditional election doctrine. Again, we have the inspired word of God in the Bible. If a book works for many people that’s great, but why shouldn’t someone experience the signs, miracles, and wonders the Bible claims? In my testimony I experienced it. I didn’t even know until later it was all Biblical.

So you actually saw an angel?

I didn’t see anything, but the angel was talking and began the discourse with a “Do not fear…” which is often the first words out of their mouth in the Bible. I didn’t even know that until later.

I will believe the Bible. There are many testimonies that are not in alignment with the Bible. I'm NOT saying your isn't, but I never build a doctrine from the testimonies of others.

Agreed.

You have a specific "reach out" example. But God has already reached out to everyone. I wonder why you would be so special that He HAD TO do something special for you?

I don’t think I’m special and I feel unworthy. I guess from God’s perspective He just thinks we’re all special and loves the people of the world.

That is all that is needed.

They didn’t have the Bible in the early church. If that’s all that was needed then why doesn’t the Bible say that?

I haven't found any verse where God chooses who to save based on His choosing.

Me too.

 

[Polar]

Justification is imparted...
You are ignoring sanctification.

Jesus does all... we do not earn salvation, but we must let Jesus WORK in us.

I am often taken aback by the amount of people in this forum that confuse sanctification with salvation

Yes, Jesus does all of it!

People need to read Galatians and think about what they believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Your comment comes straight from reformed theology. So you DO know what you believe.

I think you’re imagining something I didn’t say

You may wish that. But my comment was directly about YOUR claim that "God chose you", in reference to being saved.

maybe because I didn’t elaborate on it. If the only tool you have is a hammer you may see every perceived problem as a nail.

On these forums, all I have is the WORD of other posters. So I go with that. If you just aren't communicating as clearly as you should be, don't blame me for my comments.

You can just ask what I meant and if you did you would get a better idea of what I was saying instead of just calling me a Calvinist.

Your claim was directly from the Calvinist play book. I didn't need to ask you because what you posted was quite clear.

I am not referring to unconditional election or the predestination version from Calvinism. I didn’t say some are chosen to be saved and others aren’t.

You said YOU were chosen. Don't you remember or keep track of what you post?

I never claimed that I was predestined. I had the option to reject it if I had so chose, but rather my faith had reached a stage where I could accept the gospel.

I never claimed that you did either. So, what's your point?

I didn’t use the words of the unconditional election doctrine.

You said "God chose me" in the context of being saved, and you ended with "and I accepted". Which sounded like you believed the gospel after God chose you. That is strictly Calvinism. 5 point, no less.

I didn’t see anything, but the angel was talking and began the discourse with a “Do not fear…” which is often the first words out of their mouth in the Bible. I didn’t even know that until later.

Where do you see anything in the Bible about angels teaching after the canon was finished?

They didn’t have the Bible in the early church.

The early church had the apostles who were specially trained to "teach them (believers) ALL that I (Christ) have commanded YOU (the 11 plus others added as apostles). John, the final apostle to die, wrote between 85-96 AD.

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
Your comment comes straight from reformed theology. So you DO know what you believe.

My wish is you wouldn’t have seen what I said from a hammer looking for a nail. You’re chasing ghosts at this point after I just plainly told you the truth.

You may wish that. But my comment was directly about YOUR claim that "God chose you", in reference to being saved.

Yes God chose me and He wills everyone to come to repentance and believe the gospel of Christ.

On these forums, all I have is the WORD of other posters. So I go with that. If you just aren't communicating as clearly as you should be, don't blame me for my comments.

I blame you for being non-understanding after you were provided clarification.

Your claim was directly from the Calvinist play book. I didn't need to ask you because what you posted was quite clear.

please quote the Calvinist playbook you’re referring to. Ironically, you’re the only one who seems to know about it.

You said "God chose me" in the context of being saved, and you ended with "and I accepted". Which sounded like you believed the gospel after God chose you. That is strictly Calvinism. 5 point, no less.

Everyone God chooses is a Calvinist? When Jesus chose His disciples were they reformed, then? It seems you have no idea what the U in TULIP means.

Where do you see anything in the Bible about angels teaching after the canon was finished?

Where does the Bible say the canon was finished?

The early church had the apostles who were specially trained to "teach them (believers) ALL that I (Christ) have commanded YOU (the 11 plus others added as apostles). John, the final apostle to die, wrote between 85-96 AD.

and yet Paul and John still said angels preach the gospel. Looks like you should start studying there because it’s a good study.

 

[Ted01]

By pulling a line from Scripture to support your viewpoint you have changed the meaning completely. In fact, in Isiah 64, the people are imploring God for His help in living righteously. Read Scripture in it's context to arrive at Biblical truth, don't try and arrive at 'truth as you perceive it' by citing quotes out of context. In fact, in Isiah 64, the people are asking for God's forgiveness for acting wickedly (filthy rags) and for abandoning God. They are asking for God's help to do right according to God's ways. So let's put your quote into context and see what it really means.


As when brushwood is set ablaze, or fire makes the water boil! Then your name would be made known to your enemies and the nations would tremble before you, While you worked awesome deeds we could not hope for,
such as had not been heard of from of old.

No ear has ever heard, no eye ever seen, any God but you working such deeds for those who wait for him.
Would that you might meet us doing right, that we might be mindful of you in our ways! Indeed, you are angry; we have sinned, we have acted wickedly.

We have all become like something unclean, all our just deeds are like polluted rags; We have all withered like leaves,
and our crimes carry us away like the wind. There are none who call upon your name, none who rouse themselves to take hold of you; For you have hidden your face from us and have delivered us up to our crimes.

While I appreciate your point of view, I respectfully disagree.

Particularly where you state that the "filthy rags" in Scripture is referring to wicked works... it's clearing talking about attempts at keeping the Law &/or doing "good works" in the flesh. [Though further reading of your correction(?) rather gets muddled. IDK, I'm rather unclear as what else you're trying to articulate].

Regardless, Paul reiterates this point in Romans (6?) and illuminates Isa. 64:6 for us... putting it in context. Therefore, when Scripture contextualizes Scripture, I prefer to go with that rather than someone else's opinion. Hope that makes sense?

Don't mean to be harsh Brother, just straight-forward.
Peace to you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Your comment comes straight from reformed theology. So you DO know what you believe.

My wish is you wouldn’t have seen what I said from a hammer looking for a nail.

I see what posters post.

You’re chasing ghosts at this point after I just plainly told you the truth.

And I told you the truth.

Yes God chose me

What did He choose you FOR? And on what basis did He choose you?

and He wills everyone to come to repentance and believe the gospel of Christ.

But not will.

I blame you for being non-understanding after you were provided clarification.

You are free to blame anyone for anything. I deal with what posters post. Be careful what you post.

please quote the Calvinist playbook you’re referring to.

Are you familiar with figures of speech? Calvinist doctrine doesn't come from the Bible. It comes from the teachings of Calvin, and those who learned it.

Ironically, you’re the only one who seems to know about it.

I'm sure my use of "playbook" is understood by most believers.

Anyone who would take that word literally the way I used it may have cognitive issues.

Everyone God chooses is a Calvinist?

No, everyone who SAYS they were chosen by God for salvation speaks "Calvinistically".

When Jesus chose His disciples were they reformed, then?

No, Jesus chose His disciples for SERVICE. As God does for ALL He chooses.

Election is to service. Every time. However, you are free to refute that if you can find ANY verse that plainly says that election is to salvation. Feel free.

It seems you have no idea what the U in TULIP means.

Rather, I have EVERY idea what it means.

The "U" stands for unconditional election to salvation. What that actually means is that God chooses to save people for NO apparent reason other than His own purposes. Which NO verse says.

And, IF God chose for salvation apart from ANY condition, then all the verses that say that salvation is by faith or believing are WRONG and should have said salvation is by election and believing is the result of being elected.

Where does the Bible say the canon was finished?

Revelation.

and yet Paul and John still said angels preach the gospel.

During the Tribulation. Ch 14

Looks like you should start studying there because it’s a good study.

I agree it's a good study, and I have been studying seriously for over 2 decades.

 

[FreeGrace2]

arthurfleminger said:
By pulling a line from Scripture to support your viewpoint you have changed the meaning completely. In fact, in Isiah 64, the people are imploring God for His help in living righteously. Read Scripture in it's context to arrive at Biblical truth, don't try and arrive at 'truth as you perceive it' by citing quotes out of context. In fact, in Isiah 64, the people are asking for God's forgiveness for acting wickedly (filthy rags) and for abandoning God. They are asking for God's help to do right according to God's ways. So let's put your quote into context and see what it really means.

While I appreciate your point of view, I respectfully disagree.

Particularly where you state that the "filthy rags" in Scripture is referring to wicked works... it's clearing talking about attempts at keeping the Law &/or doing "good works" in the flesh.

Guys, to be clear, the Hebrew in Isa 64:6 and "filthy rags" is literally "used menstrual rags". Slightly different. It doesn't refer to works at all, but that any good works that a human being can do stinks to high heaven.

God isn't impressed with man's morality. That's the point.

 

[Ted01]

arthurfleminger said:
By pulling a line from Scripture to support your viewpoint you have changed the meaning completely. In fact, in Isiah 64, the people are imploring God for His help in living righteously. Read Scripture in it's context to arrive at Biblical truth, don't try and arrive at 'truth as you perceive it' by citing quotes out of context. In fact, in Isiah 64, the people are asking for God's forgiveness for acting wickedly (filthy rags) and for abandoning God. They are asking for God's help to do right according to God's ways. So let's put your quote into context and see what it really means.

Guys, to be clear, the Hebrew in Isa 64:6 and "filthy rags" is literally "used menstrual rags". Slightly different. It doesn't refer to works at all, but that any good works that a human being can do stinks to high heaven.

God isn't impressed with man's morality. That's the point.

How could you possibly not see what's there in the text?

(ESV) Isa. 64:
6 We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

It's clearly talking about "righteous deeds/good works"! How could anyone deny that?
And it's righteous deeds not wicked deeds, as mentioned earlier.

Also, while I am aware that there's the probability that it is referring to menstrual clothes... I don't really think that's relevant.

You both have me rather confused... please feel free to elaborate.

In Christ, Grace and Peace.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How could you possibly not see what's there in the text?

I did.

(ESV) Isa. 64:
6 We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Exactly! Our deeds are very stinky to God. "polluted garment" in the Hebrew is literally "used menstral rags".

It's clearly talking about "righteous deeds/good works"! How could anyone deny that?

I didn't deny that. The focus was on "filthy rags". I just clarified what that literally means in the Hebrew.

And it's righteous deeds not wicked deeds, as mentioned earlier.

I made that clear in my explanation.

Also, while I am aware that there's the probability that it is referring to menstrual clothes... I don't really think that's relevant.

Oh, it's very relevant. It is HOW God views (smells) "all our righteousnesses".

You both have me rather confused... please feel free to elaborate.
The verse equates "all our righteousnesses" with "used menstral rags".

Do used menstral rags smell BAD? Yes, they do. That's how God views the best our human works do.

 

[Ted01]

I did.


Exactly! Our deeds are very stinky to God. "polluted garment" in the Hebrew is literally "used menstral rags".


I didn't deny that. The focus was on "filthy rags". I just clarified what that literally means in the Hebrew.


I made that clear in my explanation.


Oh, it's very relevant. It is HOW God views (smells) "all our righteousnesses".

Thank you for your clarification Brother! I think that I understand you better now.

I'm sorry that I got hung up on your sentence:

"Guys, to be clear, the Hebrew in Isa 64:6 and "filthy rags" is literally "used menstrual rags". Slightly different. It doesn't refer to works at all, but that any good works that a human being can do stinks to high heaven."

It seemed to me a contradictory statement where you say that it has nothing to do with works, and then after the "but" you say that it does have to do with works...

My bad, I apologize.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thank you for your clarification Brother! I think that I understand you better now.

I'm sorry that I got hung up on your sentence:

"Guys, to be clear, the Hebrew in Isa 64:6 and "filthy rags" is literally "used menstrual rags". Slightly different. It doesn't refer to works at all, but that any good works that a human being can do stinks to high heaven."

It seemed to me a contradictory statement where you say that it has nothing to do with works, and then after the "but" you say that it does have to do with works...

My bad, I apologize.

No problem, and no need to apologize. It was my sentence that wasn't as clear as it could have been.

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
Your comment comes straight from reformed theology. So you DO know what you believe.

I see what posters post.


And I told you the truth.


What did He choose you FOR? And on what basis did He choose you?


But not will.


You are free to blame anyone for anything. I deal with what posters post. Be careful what you post.


Are you familiar with figures of speech? Calvinist doctrine doesn't come from the Bible. It comes from the teachings of Calvin, and those who learned it.


I'm sure my use of "playbook" is understood by most believers.

Anyone who would take that word literally the way I used it may have cognitive issues.


No, everyone who SAYS they were chosen by God for salvation speaks "Calvinistically".


No, Jesus chose His disciples for SERVICE. As God does for ALL He chooses.

Election is to service. Every time. However, you are free to refute that if you can find ANY verse that plainly says that election is to salvation. Feel free.


Rather, I have EVERY idea what it means.

The "U" stands for unconditional election to salvation. What that actually means is that God chooses to save people for NO apparent reason other than His own purposes. Which NO verse says.

And, IF God chose for salvation apart from ANY condition, then all the verses that say that salvation is by faith or believing are WRONG and should have said salvation is by election and believing is the result of being elected.


Revelation.


During the Tribulation. Ch 14


I agree it's a good study, and I have been studying seriously for over 2 decades.

Okay so what’s your question or point exactly?

 

[Jackson123]

Matt 25 indicate salvation also mean save from selfishness and Jesus in the heart of the saved help him to be loving person by helping the poor

only believe Jesus as God but do not believe His teaching, will dangerous
Jesus will send you to hell as goat

 

[Magenta]

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭

the gospel is foreordained from the beginning that we walk therein. It’s what makes a Christian

Ephesians 2:10
Thank you for the inspiration

The image was not showing up earlier so I waited to post it, and it has changed sine then

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay so what’s your question or point exactly?

Exactly what my initial post said. You weren't chosen for salvation.

God saved you because you believed in His Son for salvation. 1 Cor 1:21

 

[FreeGrace2]

Matt 25 indicate salvation also mean save from selfishness and Jesus in the heart of the saved help him to be loving person by helping the poor

only believe Jesus as God but do not believe His teaching, will dangerous
Jesus will send you to hell as goat

I think you just condemned yourself by your own disbeliefs. I showed you what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; that they shall never perish.

Yet, here you are, claiming all kinds of things will get you loss of salvation.

Since you DON'T believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life, why don't you think He will send YOU to hell, according to your own claim?

 

[Grandpa]

Discrimination is serious crime in Jesus eyes

matt 25
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

I was stranger you invite Me than Jesus put you to heaven otherwise yo go to hell

stranger can mean different race

if you hate different race Jesus will consider you as goat and put you to hell

it is serious crime, capital punishment

Discrimination isn't a crime at all. The term is mis-understood. Discrimination is akin to discernment. You discriminate between hot and cold. You discriminate between good and evil.

Racism, hating a person because of the color of their skin, is the crime in the eyes of God.

Which is what I think you REALLY meant when you said discrimination.

 

[Grandpa]

Faith without works doesn't exist. There is no such thing as faith without works.

Faith causes action.

You have faith you will be paid and so you go to work. If you didn't have that faith you wouldn't go.



Faith in Christ causes you to do the things that the bible says the Lord has commanded. Since you can do NOTHING without the Lord Jesus, this will cause you to call on the Lord for His Help. This is what leads to Salvation.

Once you work out your Salvation with fear and trembling, which means to understand what Salvation is and where it came from, it becomes ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that Salvation comes from God and everyone who has obtained it has been led there by God Himself.

Once a person understands this they will know that ALL BLESSINGS come from God and NONE from works. Perhaps the works ARE the blessing...