Even So Faith, If It Hath Not Works, Is Dead, Being Alone.

[gb9]

Jesus does save someone eternally the moment they believe in Him. Look at Roman's 10, John 3:16, 5:24, 3:36, 10:28, Roman's 5:8.

From this, after salvation being delivered, there will be fruit from the person being indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Now... this doesn't mean they will always now be faithful, or never rebel etc..

If they get into sinful ways, they will be disciplined by Jesus, thru the Holy Spirit quickening and convicting. But.. He isn't going to leave them !

That is not love. That is a conditional, behavioral, tyrannical contract.

Your parents,if they are doing their job, will not leave you when you fail and rebel. They should not disown you. They would correct, and withdraw intimacy .. but not leave.

Gods love is stronger and deeper than this.

what a lot of people think and teach is that we are saved by faith, proven and maintained by good works, and as long as you have faith and keep doing good works and abstaining from sin, God extends grace.

that makes sense, but it is man made teaching ,not what the Bible teaches.

the Bible teaches that we are BY grace THROUGH faith FOR good works.

 

[TMS]

Of course there are false converts.. but works have zip zero nadda to do with initial salvation.

Justification is imparted...
You are ignoring sanctification.

Jesus does all... we do not earn salvation, but we must let Jesus WORK in us.

Jesus doesnt just cover us with His blood, He wants to free us from sin by creating a clean heart in us. To purify, refine, cleanse us. To impute His sacredness in us.

He didn't save us to continue in sin.

Roman 6.....

Rom 6: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Jackson123]

Teaching not to discriminate is just part of our beloved Maker's Perfection. It is there in fron of our faces, yet so many continue in this oppressive mindset. God bless you for th e reminders.

Discrimination is serious crime in Jesus eyes

matt 25
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

I was stranger you invite Me than Jesus put you to heaven otherwise yo go to hell

stranger can mean different race

if you hate different race Jesus will consider you as goat and put you to hell

it is serious crime, capital punishment

 

[Jackson123]

what a lot of people think and teach is that we are saved by faith, proven and maintained by good works, and as long as you have faith and keep doing good works and abstaining from sin, God extends grace.

that makes sense, but it is man made teaching ,not what the Bible teaches.

the Bible teaches that we are BY grace THROUGH faith FOR good works.

If you have faith in the sense to led Jesus to be your King that rule you, than Jesus in you will make you bear .the fruit of the Holy Spirit is love

love manifested in helping the needy

the fruit of the

 

[wattie]

Justification is imparted...
You are ignoring sanctification.

Jesus does all... we do not earn salvation, but we must let Jesus WORK in us.

Jesus doesnt just cover us with His blood, He wants to free us from sin by creating a clean heart in us. To purify, refine, cleanse us. To impute His sacredness in us.

He didn't save us to continue in sin.

Roman 6.....

Rom 6: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes Jesus will correct and quicken a believer who falls into sin. But He isn't going to undo His covering of their sin underlying it all. Eternal salvation is unconditional...only by believing. A life salvaged to God is the daily salvation God wants, but doesn't drop and leave us if we fail.

 

[BroTan]

Jesus does save someone eternally the moment they believe in Him. Look at Roman's 10, John 3:16, 5:24, 3:36, 10:28, Roman's 5:8.

From this, after salvation being delivered, there will be fruit from the person being indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Now... this doesn't mean they will always now be faithful, or never rebel etc..

If they get into sinful ways, they will be disciplined by Jesus, thru the Holy Spirit quickening and convicting. But.. He isn't going to leave them !

That is not love. That is a conditional, behavioral, tyrannical contract.

Your parents,if they are doing their job, will not leave you when you fail and rebel. They should not disown you. They would correct, and withdraw intimacy .. but not leave.

Gods love is stronger and deeper than this.

I agree with all those verses, but the many say that believe in God (Jesus) and refuse to his will. We must realize, that it is the keeping of God’s holy laws that separates the righteous from the unrighteous and the Saints from the Sinners. It's written in (Titus: 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. You must learn (by the word of God) what God expects of you and maintain his expectations to the end, if you expect to be saved. Jesus says in (Matt. 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. You are supposed to glorify your Father in heaven, and let your light shine before men. And how do you do that? By having good works. Sometimes as a Christian you don’t have to say a word, people will see your works.

Let's go into (Ezek. 33:30-32) Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the Lord. (v.31) And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness. (v. 32) And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not. Hopefully the time will come when you realize that you need more than lip service when it comes to serving the Lord. You must learn what thus saith the Lord, and do it!

Paul said in (Gal. 3:11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. This didn’t start in the New Testament, Paul was only quoting scripture, and the just has always lived by their faith. (Habakkuk 2:4) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. The just shall live by his belief (faith), and how do you show the Lord that you believe in him? By your obedience to his word.

 

[wattie]

I agree with all those verses, but the many say that believe in God (Jesus) and refuse to his will. We must realize, that it is the keeping of God’s holy laws that separates the righteous from the unrighteous and the Saints from the Sinners. It's written in (Titus: 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. You must learn (by the word of God) what God expects of you and maintain his expectations to the end, if you expect to be saved. Jesus says in (Matt. 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. You are supposed to glorify your Father in heaven, and let your light shine before men. And how do you do that? By having good works. Sometimes as a Christian you don’t have to say a word, people will see your works.

Let's go into (Ezek. 33:30-32) Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the Lord. (v.31) And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness. (v. 32) And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not. Hopefully the time will come when you realize that you need more than lip service when it comes to serving the Lord. You must learn what thus saith the Lord, and do it!

Paul said in (Gal. 3:11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. This didn’t start in the New Testament, Paul was only quoting scripture, and the just has always lived by their faith. (Habakkuk 2:4) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. The just shall live by his belief (faith), and how do you show the Lord that you believe in him? By your obedience to his word.

Well, if a believer HAS to do good works or is not saved, you are talking a works based conditional contract with no underlying unconditional love.

The verses I mentioned are what takes it away from conditional salvation to a free gift.. not by works.

Are you sure you aren't mixing up the giving of salvation with serving God afterwards?

Of course God wants us to serve Him. But if He can drop and leave us if we fail... that's not counting Jesus' sacrifice for our sin worth anything. Again.. that's a tyrannical contract.

 

[Wansvic]

The scriptures below indicate that believing in Jesus is expressed through obedience. As mentioned in John chapter 8, IF, again it says IF, a person believes in Jesus they will continue in His word and as such Jesus recognizes them as His disciples. Also, those referenced in Matthew 7 believed in Jesus; yet Jesus didn't recognize them as His disciples, for He said I never knew you. And lastly, James 2:19 states you do well to believe the devils do and tremble; clearly they are not gaining entrance into heaven.

"As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:30-34

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Hebrews 5:9

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

 

[PennEd]

Wattie for me is short for my surname Watson

How is it short?

They both have 6 letters!

 

[Ted01]

Don't the Scriptures say that we (in the flesh) cannot perform "good works"... that our good works are as filthy rags, before Him?
Also, that it is God, in us, who works [gives us the ability] to both will and do of His good pleasure?
And again, he who has the Son (or the Spirit), has life, ergo Saved?

So, it would seem to me that we're saved well before we are doing "good works".

 

[wattie]

How is it short?

They both have 6 letters!

Hehe! Too right!

Well.. uh.. then just call it a nickname eh.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Discrimination is serious crime in Jesus eyes

All sin is.

matt 25
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

I was stranger you invite Me than Jesus put you to heaven otherwise yo go to hell

stranger can mean different race

if you hate different race Jesus will consider you as goat and put you to hell

Then you don't believe Jesus when He said that those He gives eternal life to (meaning those who have believed, when they believe, per John 5:24) shall never perish, per John 10:28. Don't you think it is a crime to disbelieve what Jesus taught as well??

it is serious crime, capital punishment

Can you show any verse that plainly says that salvation can be lost?

 

[arthurfleminger]

I don't understand why there are so many threads about faith and works on this message board????????? All Christians believe that faith is important and all Christians believe that good works are important. So, let each of us go forth into the world and shine our Christian light on it with faith and good works that emanate from our faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Faith is a “work” in the sense it requires self-effort.

Maybe for some people, thinking is an effort. But faith is just another word for trust. If someone has to work at trusting someone or something else, then are they really trusting in the first place?

If one wants to believe in the message of the cross, put their faith in it, they’ll probably have to work or be convinced by some miracle or sign.

I didn't need a miracle or sign. My mother was very trustful and consistent in her life. She explained the gospel to me and at 7 yrs old, I put my trust in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross for my salvation. As I grew up, I learned for myself what the Bible says.

That’s how I came to Christianity. Not that I chose God, but God chose me and I agreed.

Sorry, but this is a fallacy of reformed theology. Human beings are free to believe in or trust in whatever they are convinced of. And at some point, you became convinced that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it.

Can you quote any verse that makes clear that election is to salvation? No, you can't.

The gospel is available to everyone. Titus 2:11 makes that clear. 1 Tim 2:3-6 proves that God WANTS everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth.

1 Cor 1:21 plainly says that God is pleased to save those who believe.

iow, God chooses to save those who believe.

When you believed, God saved you. Believe it. The Bible says it. That should settle it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't understand why there are so many threads about faith and works on this message board????????? All Christians believe that faith is important and all Christians believe that good works are important. So, let each of us go forth into the world and shine our Christian light on it with faith and good works that emanate from our faith.

The continuing issue is whether loss of faith results in loss of salvation, which is a heresy, and whether salvation requires "good works" in addition to faith.

The Bible is very clear on these things, but it is obvious that many many people are not clear about the Bible.

 

[Runningman]

Maybe for some people, thinking is an effort. But faith is just another word for trust. If someone has to work at trusting someone or something else, then are they really trusting in the first place?


I didn't need a miracle or sign. My mother was very trustful and consistent in her life. She explained the gospel to me and at 7 yrs old, I put my trust in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross for my salvation. As I grew up, I learned for myself what the Bible says.


Sorry, but this is a fallacy of reformed theology. Human beings are free to believe in or trust in whatever they are convinced of. And at some point, you became convinced that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it.

Can you quote any verse that makes clear that election is to salvation? No, you can't.

The gospel is available to everyone. Titus 2:11 makes that clear. 1 Tim 2:3-6 proves that God WANTS everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth.

1 Cor 1:21 plainly says that God is pleased to save those who believe.

iow, God chooses to save those who believe.

When you believed, God saved you. Believe it. The Bible says it. That should settle it.

I don’t believe in reformed (Calvinist) theology and I’m informed enough about it to know if I did.

I believe in the Bible and my experiences that are confirmed by the Bible. If you actually knew my testimony about how I became a Christian, you wouldn’t be erroneously trying to put me in a theological box.

I had been reading the Bible for about a year or so, praying, etc. One quiet night in my bedroom an angel of God came and preached the gospel to me and asked me to serve the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I agreed and received God’s blessing and prayed together with His messenger.

Believe it. God does reach out to people. If that hadn’t have happened I wouldn’t have the extremely great faith I do and maybe I would have kept looking elsewhere? I don’t know. My faith is further confirmed by the spiritual gifts I have. Glory to God.

If all you needed was the Bible then that’s great. The Bible is the word of God and it confirms our faith and should confirm our experiences.

Galatians 1:8
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[JaumeJ]

All sin is.


Then you don't believe Jesus when He said that those He gives eternal life to (meaning those who have believed, when they believe, per John 5:24) shall never perish, per John 10:28. Don't you think it is a crime to disbelieve what Jesus taught as well??


Can you show any verse that plainly says that salvation can be lost?

Apparently there are sins more grave than other, for Jesus Yeshua has taught thaqt he who has trespassed even the least of the laws is guilty of having trespassed dthem all. Yes, the punishment may amount to the same for all however when one may seem more grave than another, from His lips, this may be so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don’t believe in reformed (Calvinist) theology and I’m informed enough about it to know if I did.

Your comment comes straight from reformed theology. So you DO know what you believe.

I believe in the Bible and my experiences that are confirmed by the Bible.

Can you quote any verse that supports your comment about God choosing you for salvation?

If you actually knew my testimony about how I became a Christian, you wouldn’t be erroneously trying to put me in a theological box.

I am only using YOUR OWN WORDS. Isn't that enough to know your testimony? What else is there to go by?

I had been reading the Bible for about a year or so, praying, etc. One quiet night in my bedroom an angel of God came and preached the gospel to me and asked me to serve the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I agreed and received God’s blessing and prayed together with His messenger.

So you actually saw an angel?

Believe it.

I will believe the Bible. There are many testimonies that are not in alignment with the Bible. I'm NOT saying your isn't, but I never build a doctrine from the testimonies of others.

God does reach out to people. If that hadn’t have happened I wouldn’t have the extremely great faith I do and maybe I would have kept looking elsewhere? I don’t know. My faith is further confirmed by the spiritual gifts I have. Glory to God.

You have a specific "reach out" example. But God has already reached out to everyone. I wonder why you would be so special that He HAD TO do something special for you?

Rom 1:19-21
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom 2:14, 15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

1 Tim 2:3-6
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

If all you needed was the Bible then that’s great.

That is all that is needed.

The Bible is the word of God and it confirms our faith and should confirm our experiences.

I haven't found any verse where God chooses who to save based on His choosing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Apparently there are sins more grave than other, for Jesus Yeshua has taught thaqt he who has trespassed even the least of the laws is guilty of having trespassed dthem all. Yes, the punishment may amount to the same for all however when one may seem more grave than another, from His lips, this may be so.

Actually, those who will be cast into the LOF will not have the "same level" of torment. Jesus taught that it will be "more tolerable" or "more bearable" for some than others.

He even went further. He said it would be more tolerable for the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrha than some of the current cities in Jesus' time!

And everyone know how totally EVIL the citizens of S & G were.

 

[Adstar]

I don't understand why there are so many threads about faith and works on this message board????????? All Christians believe that faith is important and all Christians believe that good works are important. So, let each of us go forth into the world and shine our Christian light on it with faith and good works that emanate from our faith.

Because some preach that doing good works secures for us our salvation in partnership with Faith in the atonement of Jesus.... These work salvation believers are believed to be false preachers and unsaved by those who believe that salvation is 100% by the Atonement of the LORD Jesus..

So this topic division has salvational importance..

Good works are important.. But as far as salvation is concerned all our good works have absolutely no bearing on either gaining or maintaining our salvation.. Our salvation is secured by two things..

Believing the LORD Jesus..
AND
Trusting that the Atonement He secured by his death on the cross paid the penalty for all our sins so that we are deemed righteous on the day of judgement and acceptable to enter into Gods eternal kingdom..