How long and how hot does the wrath of God burn toward sin?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Eternal torment VS Annihilation
- Thread starter LW97
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God's wrath is as eternal as God Himself. The only punishment suitable for an eternal being is an eternal one. The New Age Christian version of God is a very weak god indeed. He seems to be unable or unwilling to punish eternal sin with eternal consequences. Not the God of the Bible.
It seems you have nothing but your opinion to back up what you believe. I ask you to look at that last verse of the many I gave. The saints sleep in Jesus. It is not their bodies being referred to there.
Jesus died on the cross to remove the penalty of sin from all who believe on Him. The wages of sin is death, a fact stated over and over and over again in the Bible. Please do a word study on hell. It is mistranslated multiple times in the Bible. If you cannot see the point of Jesus' sacrifice simply because unbelievers will be no more in the world to come, I am afraid you have not thought this through very thoroughly. You may as well say you find no value in living by Godly principles. Jesus came that we might have life, and have it more abundantly. Nobody in their right mind wants to die. Rather fear Him Who can destroy both body and soul. That fear is the beginning of wisdom.
Most? I don't believe you have a way of determining this in reality. Many take it as a literal event, and refuse to accept that it is a parable, giving some made up rule (which is nowhere found in the Bible) they proclaim makes it null and void as a parable simply because real people are named in it, and another name is given. I have even been told that none of the other parables gave real life events. I have to shake my head in wonder and amazement that otherwise seemingly sensible people say such ridiculous things while trying to refute what I believe, which is solidly based on Scripture. I have even been told I do not believe what the Bible says because I do not accept what others believe even though what they believe is not even in the Bible! What is in the Bible is that Jesus taught in parables. In fact, we are told that:
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." Matthew 13:34-35
With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything. Mark 4:33-34
The second death lasts forever after. Please stop dishonoring God by calling Him weak.
"Tormented" is a wrong translation for "imprisoned".God’s Memorials
Rev. 14:9-11 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
Some things are preserved in God's memory that is just as good as having them on file or archived digitally. His recall is 100%. Here is a case for something in God's memory:
Mark 9:47, 48 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Come on, a maggot that never dies. What is that?
Be aware that Sheol and Hades simply refers to the grave. Our doctrine of a dwelling place of the dead is inserted into Strong's Concordance as a reference. The reference in Revelation where they are tormented day and night forever, their smoke ascending forever could refer to something captured on film, therefore forever preserved. The reference in Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" I believe is another example of that. It just does not make sense of a maggot that never dies. Anyway, hades is finally tossed into the lake of fire. You can't do that with a dwelling place.
All said, as I stated before all scripture has to fit together, in what we teach, or none of it is valid. Some things were presented in parables with figurative speech. Some things maybe we don't quite understand yet. God will not reveal some things until He is ready for us to know. I feel Lazarus and the rich man is a parable despite the proper names.
When God is finished with purging the universe of evil: all the demons and evil people will be completely destroyed.
Eze. 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." This establishes identity.
Eze. 28:18 "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
Eze. 28:19 "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period.
What about this verse:
Rev. 20:10 “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
The “are” in many translations was added for ease of reading but changed the meaning. Below is the NIV version which renders it correctly. Where they were cast. Again, this is just another memorial preserved for the future.
NIV Rev. 20:10 "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
The jailers were tormenters.
a central issue here is whether existence is the same thing as life.
it seems inconsistent with scripture to say that death is cessation of existence - certainly not physical death, because then there would be no resurrection. and neither what we often call 'spiritual death' because frequently in the NT we are spoken of as having been 'dead' in our sin when Christ called us to life, but we just as certainly weren't 'non-existent' then
so we derive our existence neither from the life of our flesh nor the life of our spirit -- we continue to exist when the body dies, and we continued in existence though our souls/spirits were dead in ignorance and separation from God before we believed and began to know Him.
since to know Him is eternal life, is eternal death to be ignorant of Him?
You are welcome, LW97, and thank you! I have been looking for more to share with you
It puzzles me that people cannot view death as punishment. Obviously
according to them, our court systems have it all wrong and so does God!
Death is the consequence stated for sin from Genesis forward.
People refuse to take Scripture at face value.
Scripture PLAINLY states that the mortal (that applies to every human who has
ever lived) puts on the immortal (that refers only to those who are found in Christ
Jesus) at the end of the age. Nowhere does Scripture state that the soul of man
lives forever, that those who are not found in Christ survive in order to be tortured
ever after. It is a fanciful fabrication straight from the pit of hell. In fact, God prevented
Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of life after they sinned, because He did not
want them to live forever in their state of sin. God does not change.
1 Cor 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
God has said from the beginning, in Genesis, before man sinned, that
DEATH would be the consequence, of sin. I believe what God said
1 Tim 6:15-16 plainly states that only God has immortality, and the rest
of Scriptures make plain that it is by faith alone in Christ alone that one
attains to life ever after. That means that Scripture means what it says:
those not in Christ will pass into the second death, as is explicitly stated.
They shall be utterly destroyed, and pass into the non-being of nothingness.
The dead know nothing. Scripture plainly states that also.
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy.
Luke 19:27 Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king
over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.
God even explicitly says that the idea of burning people never entered
His mind. He sees it as wickedness, and yet people promote it.
One of the most famous, oft' quoted Scriptures states that God so loved
the world that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish... PERISH.
Word number 622 in Strong's concordance.
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing
(the resultant death being viewed as certain).HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy")
– properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent
(absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with
the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106);
cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly
God is love. Thank you, God, for your love for us is so great, that
You made a way for us to live with You forever, through the propitiatory
sacrifice of Your precious Son on the cross out of His great love for us.
The Bible does frequently use the image of eternal fire in order to represent God's anger with sin, which will result in the total destruction of the sinner in the grave. Sodom was punished with "eternal fire" (Jude 7), i.e. it was totally destroyed due to the wickedness of the inhabitants. Today that city is in ruins, submerged beneath the waters of the Dead Sea; in no way is it now on fire, which is necessary if we are to understand 'eternal fire' literally.
Likewise Jerusalem was threatened with the eternal fire of God's anger, due to the sins of Israel: "Then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched" (Jer. 17:27). Jerusalem being the prophesied capital of the future Kingdom (Is. 2:2-4; Ps. 48:2), God did not mean us to read this literally. The great houses of Jerusalem were burnt down with fire (2 Kings 25:9), but that fire did not continue eternally.
Similarly, God punished the land of Idumea with fire that would "not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste...the owl and the raven shall dwell in it...thorns shall come up in her palaces" (Is. 34:9-15). Seeing that animals and plants were to exist in the ruined land of Idumea, the language of eternal fire must refer to God's anger and His total destruction of the place, rather than being taken literally.
The Hebrew and Greek phrases which are translated "for ever" mean strictly, "for the age". Sometimes this refers to literal infinity, for example the age of the kingdom, but not always. Ez. 32:14-15 is an example: "The forts and towers shall be dens for ever...until the spirit be poured upon us". This is one way of understanding the 'eternity' of 'eternal fire'.
Time and again God's anger with the sins of Jerusalem and Israel is likened to fire: "Mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place (Jerusalem)...it shall burn, and shall not be quenched" (Jer. 7:20; other examples include Lam. 4:11 and 2 Kings 22:17).
Fire is also associated with God's judgment of sin, especially at the return of Christ: "For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up" (Mal. 4:1). When stubble, or even a human body, is burnt by fire, it returns to dust.
Malachi 4:3
Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under
the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty.
It should be noted that "hell" is "cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:14). This indicates that hell is not the same as "the lake of fire"; this represents complete destruction. In the symbolic manner of the book of Revelation, we are being told that the grave is to be totally destroyed, because at the end of the Millennium there will be no more death.
Likewise Jerusalem was threatened with the eternal fire of God's anger, due to the sins of Israel: "Then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched" (Jer. 17:27). Jerusalem being the prophesied capital of the future Kingdom (Is. 2:2-4; Ps. 48:2), God did not mean us to read this literally. The great houses of Jerusalem were burnt down with fire (2 Kings 25:9), but that fire did not continue eternally.
Similarly, God punished the land of Idumea with fire that would "not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste...the owl and the raven shall dwell in it...thorns shall come up in her palaces" (Is. 34:9-15). Seeing that animals and plants were to exist in the ruined land of Idumea, the language of eternal fire must refer to God's anger and His total destruction of the place, rather than being taken literally.
The Hebrew and Greek phrases which are translated "for ever" mean strictly, "for the age". Sometimes this refers to literal infinity, for example the age of the kingdom, but not always. Ez. 32:14-15 is an example: "The forts and towers shall be dens for ever...until the spirit be poured upon us". This is one way of understanding the 'eternity' of 'eternal fire'.
Time and again God's anger with the sins of Jerusalem and Israel is likened to fire: "Mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place (Jerusalem)...it shall burn, and shall not be quenched" (Jer. 7:20; other examples include Lam. 4:11 and 2 Kings 22:17).
Fire is also associated with God's judgment of sin, especially at the return of Christ: "For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up" (Mal. 4:1). When stubble, or even a human body, is burnt by fire, it returns to dust.
Malachi 4:3
Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under
the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty.
It should be noted that "hell" is "cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:14). This indicates that hell is not the same as "the lake of fire"; this represents complete destruction. In the symbolic manner of the book of Revelation, we are being told that the grave is to be totally destroyed, because at the end of the Millennium there will be no more death.
Those scriptures must be read while also taking into account the clear meaning of the verse i quoted in Rev 20.. destruction can be seen as never ending destruction a process of destruction that never ends.. Being burn't without being burn't up..
The lost perish and are no more. They go to their death. Hell is the grave.
Here are quite a few verses that affirm that the wages of sin is death.
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad
that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul;
but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the Greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which
means to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish, make void.
Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those
in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all"
(not tortured). And it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29)
"destroyed them" (not tortured).
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So a person either receives eternal life, or they perish. Nothing about eternal torment there.
John 5:24, Jesus said
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him,
for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption
(phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
^^ phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish. The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction,
but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved
for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed
Psalm 37:28b
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
the dead know nothing
Following the resurrection and judgement of all is when the mortal put on the
immortal, not before. Then too shall the corruptible put on the incorruptible.
See 1 Corinthians 15:54~ Death will be swallowed up in victory.
Jesus Christ has already overcome death.
Here are quite a few verses that affirm that the wages of sin is death.
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad
that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul;
but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the Greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which
means to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish, make void.
Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those
in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all"
(not tortured). And it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29)
"destroyed them" (not tortured).
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So a person either receives eternal life, or they perish. Nothing about eternal torment there.
John 5:24, Jesus said
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him,
for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption
(phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
^^ phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish. The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction,
but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved
for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed
Psalm 37:28b
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
the dead know nothing
Following the resurrection and judgement of all is when the mortal put on the
immortal, not before. Then too shall the corruptible put on the incorruptible.
See 1 Corinthians 15:54~ Death will be swallowed up in victory.
Jesus Christ has already overcome death.
Before the first sin of Adam and Eve, what was the promised consequence?
God said that it was death: "thou shalt surely die." God didn't tell them that
they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in
hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God
to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to
prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever in their state of sin.
Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul
said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient
toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
If you are not alive you cannot be tormented!
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us: the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death.
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.
Ezekiel 18:4
The soul who sins will die.
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.
Too many promote the lie of Satan at the heart of the fall of all creation
God said that it was death: "thou shalt surely die." God didn't tell them that
they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in
hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God
to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to
prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever in their state of sin.
Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul
said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient
toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
If you are not alive you cannot be tormented!
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us: the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death.
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.
Ezekiel 18:4
The soul who sins will die.
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.
Too many promote the lie of Satan at the heart of the fall of all creation
Sleep is simply A METAPHOR for death. There are no souls sleeping six feet under the earth. So take it to the next level and see who is in Heaven and who is in Sheol/Hades. You could start with the death of Stephen and clear your mind from the false doctrine of Soul Sleep. And don't forget that "the be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord".
Another false doctrine since "perish" and "destroy" DO NOT mean annihilation is Scripture.
REVELATION 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
You can deny it all you like, but according to Scripture, those currently present with the Lord SLEEP. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1 Thess 4:14. PS~ I would call it a euphemism.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance word #622: ἀπόλλυμι
destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully (reflexively, to
perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") –
properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction,
i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction"
(L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
You want to say dead people are alive. That is your prerogative.
That is not what 1 Thessalonians 4:14 King James Version says.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so
them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Hmmm.... I guess the witch at Endor and King Saul were somehow able to wake Samuel out of his "soulsleep"!
1 Samuel 28:3 Now Samuel was DEAD, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.
11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 SAMUEL SAID TO SAUL, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing ME UP?”
1 Samuel 28:3 Now Samuel was DEAD, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.
11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 SAMUEL SAID TO SAUL, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing ME UP?”