Essential Christian Doctrines

[TruthDefender]

I understand very well what you wrote TruthDefender

Adam caused man's fall.

God did not make the Edenic Covenant with Eve.
God made this Covenant with Adam.

Also, Paul explains this in


Romans 5:12
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—


Romans 5:19
19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Ok, my bad. Apologies.

 

[TruthDefender]

And that's the point. Eve didn't represent mankind; Adam did. That's why God held Adam accountable.

Ok, my bad. Apologies.

 

[Cameron143]

Ok, my bad. Apologies.

No problem. We're all learning.

 

[TruthDefender]

No problem. We're all learning.

I guess I should’ve known that!

 

[Toknow]

@GWH

Good Morning,
As promised,,,I'm here.
You said I did not reply to your post no 316 last evening.

Actually, I did respond to it many times since we've had an ongoing conversation,,
for instance just one post would be my no. 220

But it seems to me that you'd like me to reply directly to your post no. 316 which might have been when I just got here.
It's about WHY did Adam disobey...or HOW was he able to disobey.

OK.
I'll do that now.
No problem.

 

[Toknow]

We are given the ability to think/reason and enough information to be able to figure out this very important point that is a stumbling-block to belief in the NT God for some people: reconciling God’s power and love with the fact of evil and its consequence. A person—even a theist—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist.

OK GWH this is the post in question.

To begin, I do NOT find theodicy to be a problem.
Also, this post was for TruthDefender, not for me, but happy to respond.

People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27). God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.

Agreed.

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options

that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (Luke 11:11-13, cf. Gen. 3:24, Rev. 22:1-2).

Agreed.

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him

as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (Gen. 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1John 3:8) and humanity (Rom. 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. The first people to choose the evil option were named Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:6). The first sin was ignoring GW.

Agreed.
Except that instead of saying that Adam IGNORED God's word (instruction to him)
I'd say that Adam chose to DISOBEY God....
or Adam chose satan over God...his very creator.
or Adam chose evil over good.

I do like my second choice the best.
ADAM CHOSE SATAN OVER GOD...his very creator.

Evil people grieve God and punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma/reaping the just consequence for sins

, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules.

Agreed.

I would just add that Karma works right now too.
Our deeds do seem to come back to us.
We reap what we sow...to make it biblical.

I believe you said this....just to clarify.

The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14).

Agreed.

That was easy.
What have I ever said that made you think I woud NOT agree?
We're in the same ball park...and on the same page.

 

[Toknow]

@GWH

Too late to edit !
The post in question is no. 214 NOT 316.

 

[GWH]

OK GWH this is the post in question.

To begin, I do NOT find theodicy to be a problem.
Also, this post was for TruthDefender, not for me, but happy to respond.




Agreed.


Agreed.


Agreed.
Except that instead of saying that Adam IGNORED God's word (instruction to him)
I'd say that Adam chose to DISOBEY God....
or Adam chose satan over God...his very creator.
or Adam chose evil over good.

I do like my second choice the best.
ADAM CHOSE SATAN OVER GOD...his very creator.


Agreed.

I would just add that Karma works right now too.
Our deeds do seem to come back to us.
We reap what we sow...to make it biblical.

I believe you said this....just to clarify.


Agreed.

That was easy.
What have I ever said that made you think I woud NOT agree?
We're in the same ball park...and on the same page.

Too easy! Hallelujah!
No need to go back and find the disconnect.
All's well that ends well.
Wish everyone would agree.
Would agreement make CC boring?
Will heaven be boring?

 

[Toknow]

Too easy! Hallelujah!
No need to go back and find the disconnect.
All's well that ends well.
Wish everyone would agree.
Would agreement make CC boring?
Will heaven be boring?

Gosh GWH
I do hope that when we get to heaven...
we will all agree!
And it will not be boring!

 

[Toknow]

Okay. BTW, I loved touring Italy with my newlywed in 1973, and we were able to revisit Venice in 2007.
So much beauty and history, both religious and political!

When did you like Venice better?
I was there last year with my granddaughte and I was horrified.

 

[GWH]

When did you like Venice better?
I was there last year with my granddaughte and I was horrified.

I asked whether heaven would be boring because we will all agree in order to encourage those on CC
who are tempted to be divisive not to view doctrinal ping pong as fun.

I understand that the increase of atheist Marxists and Islamists in Europe is ruining the experience,
so I feel blessed that I was able to tour it while stationed there in 1973 plus a quick trip to Venice in 2007.
What did you experience there last year that was horrible? Is it horrible all over Italy?

 

[Toknow]

I asked whether heaven would be boring because we will all agree in order to encourage those on CC
who are tempted to be divisive not to view doctrinal ping pong as fun.

I understand that the increase of atheist Marxists and Islamists in Europe is ruining the experience,
so I feel blessed that I was able to tour it while stationed there in 1973 plus a quick trip to Venice in 2007.
What did you experience there last year that was horrible? Is it horrible all over Italy?

Muslims who refuse to intergrate is problematic, but this is not about that.

Venice has become run down.
How this is possible with the money coming in from tourism is a mystery to me.

I found it to be dirtier than I remembered.
Maybe we romanticize the past....??

The buildings are run down except in the very touristy areas.
The food was bad.
The best food we had was a little neighborhood bars...which means that
tourist are being scalped.
I can't afford the 5 star restrns so I'm not speaking about those. They're probably still good.

Just a general malaise.

Seems like this is more prevalent in the cities.
The countryside is still beautiful...the people nice and friendly.
I live in No Tuscany...a mountainous region and very beautiful if you like the mountains.
So tuscany, which is where tourists go, is also beatufiful, clean and the food good.

You can judge a place by the food.
If you get good food it means they pride themselves on it and care for themselves AND tourist.

 

[Toknow]

Ok, my bad. Apologies.

The problem is not that you disagreed.
The problem is your tone.
It's difficult to speak to someone that is insulting right off the bat.

 

[GWH]

Muslims who refuse to intergrate is problematic, but this is not about that.

Venice has become run down.
How this is possible with the money coming in from tourism is a mystery to me.

I found it to be dirtier than I remembered.
Maybe we romanticize the past....??

The buildings are run down except in the very touristy areas.
The food was bad.
The best food we had was a little neighborhood bars...which means that
tourist are being scalped.
I can't afford the 5 star restrns so I'm not speaking about those. They're probably still good.

Just a general malaise.

Seems like this is more prevalent in the cities.
The countryside is still beautiful...the people nice and friendly.
I live in No Tuscany...a mountainous region and very beautiful if you like the mountains.
So tuscany, which is where tourists go, is also beatufiful, clean and the food good.

You can judge a place by the food.
If you get good food it means they pride themselves on it and care for themselves AND tourist.

We entered Italy via the Brenner Pass, drove on winding roads through the Dolomite Mountains to Assissi andVenice,
then to Rome and a day trip to Naples and Pompey, then to Florence and Pisa on the way back to Augsburg Germany.
The second trip to Venice was driving from Bosnia through Croatia in 2006 before it became bad.
Frankly, I remember driving and walking but not eating--no pictures of food!

 

[Toknow]

We entered Italy via the Brenner Pass, drove on winding roads through the Dolomite Mountains to Assissi andVenice,
then to Rome and a day trip to Naples and Pompey, then to Florence and Pisa on the way back to Augsburg Germany.
The second trip to Venice was driving from Bosnia through Croatia in 2006 before it became bad.
Frankly, I remember driving and walking but not eating--no pictures of food!

I wish I could say the same!
I love food!

Sometimes we go down to Montereggione because there are a couple of really good restrnts there, and it's not too far.
I love your first trip....Wonderful. Love the Dolomites. The Naples area is gorgeous too. Sorrento, Capri, Amalfi.
Not familiar with Bosnia, but Croatia is really nice too. Incredible how it recovered from the war. It might be better NOW, actually.

Yeah. Keep away from too much food !!

 

[GWH]

I wish I could say the same!
I love food!

Sometimes we go down to Montereggione because there are a couple of really good restrnts there, and it's not too far.
I love your first trip....Wonderful. Love the Dolomites. The Naples area is gorgeous too. Sorrento, Capri, Amalfi.
Not familiar with Bosnia, but Croatia is really nice too. Incredible how it recovered from the war. It might be better NOW, actually.

Yeah. Keep away from too much food !!

Now watching the Olympics opening ceremony. How close is that to where you live?

 

[Toknow]

Now watching the Olympics opening ceremony. How close is that to where you live?

Good morning GWH
Cortina D'Ampezzo is about 5 hours north and east of me.
It's a really beautiful area, as you know. Very nice town. Caters to the rich, like St. Moritz or Davos in Switzerland.
And the Dolomite mountains are very unique and different from other ranges.
There's stuff going on in Milano too -but I don't understand what..maybe ice-skating and the such where mountains are not needed.

 

[GWH]

Good morning GWH
Cortina D'Ampezzo is about 5 hours north and east of me.
It's a really beautiful area, as you know. Very nice town. Caters to the rich, like St. Moritz or Davos in Switzerland.
And the Dolomite mountains are very unique and different from other ranges.
There's stuff going on in Milano too -but I don't understand what..maybe ice-skating and the such where mountains are not needed.

Howdy from Texas. I guess you must be near Genoa.
Well, off to watch more Olympics on the DVR while the wife sleeps in...
HAND!

 

[Toknow]

Howdy from Texas. I guess you must be near Genoa.
Well, off to watch more Olympics on the DVR while the wife sleeps in...
HAND!

No. I'll tell you where I live --- no problem.
I live an hour north of Pisa in the hills around the town of Lucca.
My daughter and her family were here before for lunch. She lives in the next town over.
We were watching that jumping sport....it's unbelievable!

 

[Toknow]

ESSENTIAL CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE

IOW,,,,what beliefs are necessary for a person to have to be defined as belonging to the Christian Religion?

Nothing to do with salvation economy.
Anyone could be saved according to Paul.

But what must one believe in order to be part of the Christian Religion?