It isn't even about getting saved. It's about His children becoming "Christ-like".
Election and predestination.
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John 6:64 (KJV) But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
That's God talk. We don't seem to understand what it means to be predestined for something because we seem to have the ability to make our own choices.
Good, we make our choices according to our sinful nature?
For a moment I thought you were asking a sincere question.
There are choices according to sinful nature: just the choices people make because their bodies are sinful.
Then there are choices about walking in the spirit.
Even Paul wrote about this for his own sins.
Romans 7:13-25
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Maybe you could show me one verse that man has a free will show one verse that says that. Free will only exist in carnal philosophy of men it has nothing to do with the will of man the Bible says man has self will which is bound and and locked up
By sin
You said: "Again, the words "I will harden Pharoah's heart" means that God will keep the idiot alive so he can continue to harden his own heart."
i would disagree with that on Scriptural Basis that you are adding what is not there and assuming that was God's Thought on the matter.
The Apostle Paul confirms that the LORD did in fact held Pharoah's heart for Judgment and that the LORD would not allow for an escape of His Judgment. This is a Righteous Act for the LORD to do against both Pharoah and Egypt as a nation.
"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up,
that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. "
Because of the severe LACK of internet chat - i am unable to give you MORE on this(weak typing skills) - maybe some day we speak in person or phone.
Would love to get together with you but i assume we are far apart geographically.
PEACE Brother
FreeGrace2 said:
What verse says that God chooses who will believe?
v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
We see that it is those who have listened and learned that come to Him.
So, rather than v.44 teaching that God chooses who will believe, we see that v.45 explains it is those have listened and learned from the Father. This shows that the choice is on those who come to Jesus.
So v.45 teaches the opposite of what Calvinists think v.44 teaches.
What verse says that God chooses who will believe?
The very next verse says clearly who will come to Jesus.
v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
We see that it is those who have listened and learned that come to Him.
So, rather than v.44 teaching that God chooses who will believe, we see that v.45 explains it is those have listened and learned from the Father. This shows that the choice is on those who come to Jesus.
So v.45 teaches the opposite of what Calvinists think v.44 teaches.
FreeGrace2 said:
It isn't even about getting saved. It's about His children becoming "Christ-like".
It's about truth. What the Bible actually says. And the verse does clearly say predestination is about being Christ-like.
Why would you reject that?
It isn't even about getting saved. It's about His children becoming "Christ-like".
It's not about "convictions", since even the highly radicalized Muslims have their convictions.
It's about truth. What the Bible actually says. And the verse does clearly say predestination is about being Christ-like.
Why would you reject that?
FreeGrace2 said:
Well, that's enough to stop right here. That guy wrote a book called "The Sovereignty of God". His chapter on free will was a total farce. I read that book way back which was before I knew how to study the Bible, and I could STILL refute his pathetic arguments against free will.
Hm. Just did.
A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul answered, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."
If Calvinism were correct, Paul's answer would HAVE TO be different. More like, "there is NOTHING you can do. If God chose you, then you will be saved. If God didn't choose you, then you CAN'T be saved.
Now, if you disagree with how I phrased Paul's answer "according to Calvinism", then please explain where I've missed something.
The Bible says in 2 different verses that men "refuse to believe". That PROVES that believing is a choice.
To refuse to do something clearly implies the ability to do that thing. Or prove otherwise, if you can.
Here is another verse that demonstrates free will:
Tituse 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. NIV
"All people" clearly means "everyone". So, by God's grace, salvation is offered to everyone. So much for the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement.
Rom 10:10 says that man believes from the heart. It doesn't say that man believes from God.
Well, that's enough to stop right here. That guy wrote a book called "The Sovereignty of God". His chapter on free will was a total farce. I read that book way back which was before I knew how to study the Bible, and I could STILL refute his pathetic arguments against free will.
Hm. Just did.
Never ask questions that include your "demands" for specific words. I can show verses that demonstrate free will.
A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul answered, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."
If Calvinism were correct, Paul's answer would HAVE TO be different. More like, "there is NOTHING you can do. If God chose you, then you will be saved. If God didn't choose you, then you CAN'T be saved.
Now, if you disagree with how I phrased Paul's answer "according to Calvinism", then please explain where I've missed something.
You obviously do not understand what free will is. When the gospel is presented, all man can do is believe it or not.
The Bible says in 2 different verses that men "refuse to believe". That PROVES that believing is a choice.
To refuse to do something clearly implies the ability to do that thing. Or prove otherwise, if you can.
Here is another verse that demonstrates free will:
Tituse 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. NIV
"All people" clearly means "everyone". So, by God's grace, salvation is offered to everyone. So much for the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement.
Rom 10:10 says that man believes from the heart. It doesn't say that man believes from God.
Those devoid of God’s Spirit walk according to their lusts.
Walking in the Spirit is only for those with the Spirit.
Sorry you think I have added anything. I have pointed out the FACT that for the first 5 plagues, Pharoah actually DID harden his own heart. And I showed WHY God kept him alive.
How can you not think that by keeping him alive longer, that he won't continue to harden his own heart? There is no reason to think that after 5 plagues, he would have changed and given in, but God intervened to keep hardening his heart. That really doesn't make sense.
No, Paul quoted from Exodus 9, which I quoted 2 verses from Ex 9 that show WHY God had kept him alive.
It would be absolutely an UN-righteous act if God acted to make Pharoah turn against Him. What an evil set-up.
OK, let's see what the OT says about "mercy" and who receives God's mercy.
Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
Red words are free will actions that the wicked and unrighteous might DO.
Blue words are what God DOES for those who DO forsake their ways and turn to the Lord. Note the sequence here.
2 Cor 3-
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
v.14 shows that the veil is taken away "only IN Christ". That means they are already believers. Eph 1:13
v.16 is a clear sequence: turn to the Lord and the veil of blindness is removed.
All this proves that man is free to choose to believe, free to act to forsake their ways.
Hopefully my comments will give you something to chew on.
"FreeGrace2,[
]FreeGrace2 said:
Well, that's enough to stop right here. That guy wrote a book called "The Sovereignty of God". His chapter on free will was a total farce. I read that book way back which was before I knew how to study the Bible, and I could STILL refute his pathetic arguments against free will.]
You have already showed you lack any credibility by failing to step up and answer anything by AW.PINK
You cannot do it.
[Hm. Just did.]
No you did not even attempt to answer any part of any of the links, because you are not equipped to do so. Do not be discouraged as no one on here can refute anything he taught.
{Never ask questions that include your "demands" for specific words. I can show verses that demonstrate free will.]
FREE WILL does not exist except in the carnal minds of ungodly carnal philosophers
[A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul answered, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."
If Calvinism were correct, Paul's answer would HAVE TO be different. More like, "there is NOTHING you can do. If God chose you, then you will be saved. If God didn't choose you, then you CAN'T be saved.]
The Apostles were Calvinists so the response will be the same. Believers believe, that is what they do
[Now, if you disagree with how I phrased Paul's answer "according to Calvinism", then please explain where I've missed something.]
No, not at all.
[You obviously do not understand what free will is. When the gospel is presented, all man can do is believe it or not.]
Because the bible mentions the word choose, does not mean the will is free.
In heaven no one will be free to sin
[The Bible says in 2 different verses that men "refuse to believe". That PROVES that believing is a choice.]
That they refuse shows they are depraved and unable to obey , not that they are "free"
[To refuse to do something clearly implies the ability to do that thing. Or prove otherwise, if you can.]
1 cor 2:14, romans 8:7, and many other verses show men do not have the ability.
These verses say...THEY CANNOT.....you suggest they can
[Here is another verse that demonstrates free will:
Tituse 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. NIV
"All people" clearly means "everyone". So, by God's grace, salvation is offered to everyone. So much for the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement.]
The free offer of the gospel is offered to all who get to hear it. The doctrine of particular redemption is just fine, intact and on track to save every elect person Jesus died for. Jesus died a Covenant death and seeks and saves every elect sheep given to him by the Father.
[Rom 10:10 says that man believes from the heart. It doesn't say that man believes from God.]
Where does the "new heart" come from?
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Thanks for these questions. Others might also be confused as you are and benefit from looking up the verses
]FreeGrace2 said:
Well, that's enough to stop right here. That guy wrote a book called "The Sovereignty of God". His chapter on free will was a total farce. I read that book way back which was before I knew how to study the Bible, and I could STILL refute his pathetic arguments against free will.]
You have already showed you lack any credibility by failing to step up and answer anything by AW.PINK
You cannot do it.
[Hm. Just did.]
No you did not even attempt to answer any part of any of the links, because you are not equipped to do so. Do not be discouraged as no one on here can refute anything he taught.
{Never ask questions that include your "demands" for specific words. I can show verses that demonstrate free will.]
FREE WILL does not exist except in the carnal minds of ungodly carnal philosophers
[A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul answered, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."
If Calvinism were correct, Paul's answer would HAVE TO be different. More like, "there is NOTHING you can do. If God chose you, then you will be saved. If God didn't choose you, then you CAN'T be saved.]
The Apostles were Calvinists so the response will be the same. Believers believe, that is what they do
[Now, if you disagree with how I phrased Paul's answer "according to Calvinism", then please explain where I've missed something.]
No, not at all.
[You obviously do not understand what free will is. When the gospel is presented, all man can do is believe it or not.]
Because the bible mentions the word choose, does not mean the will is free.
In heaven no one will be free to sin
[The Bible says in 2 different verses that men "refuse to believe". That PROVES that believing is a choice.]
That they refuse shows they are depraved and unable to obey , not that they are "free"
[To refuse to do something clearly implies the ability to do that thing. Or prove otherwise, if you can.]
1 cor 2:14, romans 8:7, and many other verses show men do not have the ability.
These verses say...THEY CANNOT.....you suggest they can
[Here is another verse that demonstrates free will:
Tituse 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. NIV
"All people" clearly means "everyone". So, by God's grace, salvation is offered to everyone. So much for the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement.]
The free offer of the gospel is offered to all who get to hear it. The doctrine of particular redemption is just fine, intact and on track to save every elect person Jesus died for. Jesus died a Covenant death and seeks and saves every elect sheep given to him by the Father.
[Rom 10:10 says that man believes from the heart. It doesn't say that man believes from God.]
Where does the "new heart" come from?
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Thanks for these questions. Others might also be confused as you are and benefit from looking up the verses
Find a scripture that says as you claim 'God was NOT hardening Pharoah's heart but it was his own free will hardening his heart.'
The scripture MUST be specific to Pharoah - no other scripture can apply.
What in the world? Please figure out how to format a post. Looks like your comments but you've made mine look like yours.
[A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul answered, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."
Your answer was appalling.
"The Apostles were Calvinists so the response will be the same. Believers believe, that is what they do"
So the apostles were Calvinists huh? Even though he wouldn't be born for a out 1500 years AFTER Jesus' resurrection? Yeah, sure.
I gave the "proper Calvinist" answer and you failed to explain anything.
Then, I asked this:
[Now, if you disagree with how I phrased Paul's answer "according to Calvinism", then please explain where I've missed something.]
So, what was your response?
Are you kidding me? What does that even mean? Can't you explain where I've missed something?
"no, not at all" isn't even an answer.
[You obviously do not understand what free will is. When the gospel is presented, all man can do is believe it or not.]
Do you really think this is a rational or reasonable comment. If people can CHOOSE, then that choice IS FREE. Whether you are able to grasp that or not.
I said:
[The Bible says in 2 different verses that men "refuse to believe". That PROVES that believing is a choice.]
You responded with:
"That they refuse shows they are depraved and unable to obey , not that they are "free""
No, it shows that they made a choice. That you can make this claim demonstrates that you have chosen (free will) to close your eyes to reality.
[To refuse to do something clearly implies the ability to do that thing. Or prove otherwise, if you can.]
Please quote these verses so I can see the translation you are citing. Then I can see whether the verses actually say that men don't have the ability.
I said this:
"Tituse 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. NIV
"All people" clearly means "everyone". So, by God's grace, salvation is offered to everyone. So much for the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement.]
The free offer of the gospel is offered to all who get to hear it. The doctrine of particular redemption is just fine, intact and on track to save every elect person Jesus died for. Jesus died a Covenant death and seeks and saves every elect sheep given to him by the Father.
[Rom 10:10 says that man believes from the heart. It doesn't say that man believes from God.]"
And your response:
"Where does the "new heart" come from?
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
So, your reponse to Rom 10:10 is about a "new heart" from the OT. Again, you are failing to directly respond to my comments.
The passage above describes a regenerated person. That's what a "new heart" is about. What the passage DOES NOT SAY is anything about God causing men to believe, as Calvinism claims.
Demanding specific wording to Your satisfaction doesn't work. Neither you or I get to make the rules as to what the Bible MUST SAY in order to convince you of something. God gave you a mind that has the ability to discern and understand and connect the dots.
Rom 9 is a quote directly from Exodus 9 and both are about Pharoah. I don't understand your point here.
Your BUSTED by your own words = "Demanding specific wording to Your satisfaction doesn't work."
GOTCHA
Your 'adding words' to God's means your argument falls flat and would be thrown out in any court - especially before the LORD.
FreeGrace2 said:
Demanding specific wording to Your satisfaction doesn't work. Neither you or I get to make the rules as to what the Bible MUST SAY in order to convince you of something. God gave you a mind that has the ability to discern and understand and connect the dots.
Rom 9 is a quote directly from Exodus 9 and both are about Pharoah. I don't understand your point here.
However, the Bible is clear enough with major doctrines and principles for anyone to get what was written.
For example, in a discussion about whether eternal security is a biblical teaching, and John 10:28 is provided:
" I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand".
These words are from Jesus Himself. He identifies Himself as the Giver of eternal life and the RESULT of being given eternal life: the recipient shall never perish.
Now, did Jesus use the word "recipient"? No. But His words "I GIVE THEM" clearly shows that there ARE recipients.
Now, Arminians will argue that this verse doesn't teach eternal security, IN SPITE of the clear words. They demand rather stupid wordings such as "even if you kill your mother and father, you will still have eternal life" or some other idiot wording.
You claimed in post #195-
Find a scripture that says as you claim 'God was NOT hardening Pharoah's heart but it was his own free will hardening his heart.'
The scripture MUST be specific to Pharoah - no other scripture can apply.
Red sentence shows that you are asking for a specific statement. I proved that Pharoah hardened his own heart in the first 5 plagues. Why do you ignore that?
Blue sentence is irrelevant becuase both the Romans 9 and Exodus 9 verses MENTIONS Pharoah SPECIFICALLY.
So I don't have any idea what you think is a problem here.
As far as your "gotcha" comment and claiming I am "adding words" to God's Word, please show me which words I am "adding".
Thanks.
Demanding specific wording to Your satisfaction doesn't work. Neither you or I get to make the rules as to what the Bible MUST SAY in order to convince you of something. God gave you a mind that has the ability to discern and understand and connect the dots.
Rom 9 is a quote directly from Exodus 9 and both are about Pharoah. I don't understand your point here.
I have no idea what you are thinking here. My point was clear; neither of us get to require "specific wording" to convince us of something.
However, the Bible is clear enough with major doctrines and principles for anyone to get what was written.
For example, in a discussion about whether eternal security is a biblical teaching, and John 10:28 is provided:
" I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand".
These words are from Jesus Himself. He identifies Himself as the Giver of eternal life and the RESULT of being given eternal life: the recipient shall never perish.
Now, did Jesus use the word "recipient"? No. But His words "I GIVE THEM" clearly shows that there ARE recipients.
Now, Arminians will argue that this verse doesn't teach eternal security, IN SPITE of the clear words. They demand rather stupid wordings such as "even if you kill your mother and father, you will still have eternal life" or some other idiot wording.
You claimed in post #195-
Find a scripture that says as you claim 'God was NOT hardening Pharoah's heart but it was his own free will hardening his heart.'
The scripture MUST be specific to Pharoah - no other scripture can apply.
Red sentence shows that you are asking for a specific statement. I proved that Pharoah hardened his own heart in the first 5 plagues. Why do you ignore that?
Blue sentence is irrelevant becuase both the Romans 9 and Exodus 9 verses MENTIONS Pharoah SPECIFICALLY.
So I don't have any idea what you think is a problem here.
As far as your "gotcha" comment and claiming I am "adding words" to God's Word, please show me which words I am "adding".
Thanks.
You have added your words to FOUR WITNESSES who TESTIFY against you words = LORD & Moses = Exodus 7:1-3-4
"But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I will multiply My signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,
Pharaoh will not listen to you."
AND to WITNESSES = Holy Spirit and Apostle Paul = Romans 9:14-18
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Your argument is VOID for you seek to override the Word of God found in the OT and NT.
There are MORE Witnesses in the Scripture as well who Testify to this.