Does Oneness theology (Modalism) teach a "sock puppet" view of God's nature?

[just_truth]

In Hypostatic Union is the union of the Divinity and humanity of Christ.
Is the Divinity of the Father included in the union or not?

UnitedWithChrist until now you did not come to answer this question?

 

[just_truth]

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

So, there is an "I" and "me" here, and a "him" here. Two distinct Persons yet they mutually indwell one another.

"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

UnitedWithChrist cannot you see the oneness of the Son and the Father, what the Son does and speaks it is really the Father doing.

 

[just_truth]

.

“I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father." -John 16:25

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

UnitedWithChrist how come the third person(H.S) of Trinity indwells to another two persons, while your doctrine teaches that H.S. is a separate person indwelling to the Believers?

I have no desire to interact with you.

I have already explained my responses in detail, and you reject them.

As I have said, the Oneness view denies the distinct Personhood of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, therefore you have no rational basis for the interpersonal activity which is exhibited in Scripture. You attempt to treat the flesh of Christ and the spirit of God in a similar way as two Persons, yet deny that they are Persons.

This is not coherent, and is essentially the same thing as my analogy. There is one Puppetmaster and three sock puppets which may be donned in order to pretend like the sock puppets are having interpersonal activity, all the time knowing that there is only one Person behind them.

And, I also know all the trashy stuff that Oneness people do, in terms of redefining history to make it appear like the Roman Catholic Church or Constantine created this doctrine. Their view of history is distorted because there was no authoritative Roman Catholic Church until well after the Trinity doctrine was enunciated. In fact one could say that Ignatius referred to the Trinity long before the 400's.

 

[just_truth]

And, I also know all the trashy stuff that Oneness people do, in terms of redefining history to make it appear like the Roman Catholic Church or Constantine created this doctrine. Their view of history is distorted because there was no authoritative Roman Catholic Church until well after the Trinity doctrine was enunciated. In fact one could say that Ignatius referred to the Trinity long before the 400's.

If you review clearly the video upload in youtube, you can see the formulator of early Nicene Creed is not a true Trinitarian just like of today.

The historical evidence indicates that the Oneness Modalistic Monarchians allied together with the Semi-Trinitarians to formulate the early 325 Nicene Creed to counter the Arian threat which denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. This explains why the Modalists and the Semi-Trinitarians were able to sign the early Nicene Creed while the Arians could not. If the Semi-Trinitarians of the early fourth century were true Trinitarians then they would not have formulated a Creed which supports Oneness Modalism. Therefore the Semi-Trinitarians who allied themselves with the Modalists against Arianism to formulate the 325 Nicene Creed could not have been true Trinitarians. Athanasius, Alexander of Alexandria, and other Semi-Trinitarians of the early fourth-century were not true Trinitarians as the Trinitarian doctrine was not yet fully developed. Any casual reader will notice that the early Nicene Creed does not use the words, “Trinity,” or “Three Persons,” nor does it clearly spell out the Trinitarian doctrine like other Creeds which came later. Therefore the early fourth-century Nicene Creed was not a true Trinitarian Creed as it was a compromised Creed that strongly favored Oneness Modalistic Monarchianism (“Sabellianism”).

See the video again...

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

If you review clearly the video upload in youtube, you can see the formulator of early Nicene Creed is not a true Trinitarian just like of today.

The historical evidence indicates that the Oneness Modalistic Monarchians allied together with the Semi-Trinitarians to formulate the early 325 Nicene Creed to counter the Arian threat which denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. This explains why the Modalists and the Semi-Trinitarians were able to sign the early Nicene Creed while the Arians could not. If the Semi-Trinitarians of the early fourth century were true Trinitarians then they would not have formulated a Creed which supports Oneness Modalism. Therefore the Semi-Trinitarians who allied themselves with the Modalists against Arianism to formulate the 325 Nicene Creed could not have been true Trinitarians. Athanasius, Alexander of Alexandria, and other Semi-Trinitarians of the early fourth-century were not true Trinitarians as the Trinitarian doctrine was not yet fully developed. Any casual reader will notice that the early Nicene Creed does not use the words, “Trinity,” or “Three Persons,” nor does it clearly spell out the Trinitarian doctrine like other Creeds which came later. Therefore the early fourth-century Nicene Creed was not a true Trinitarian Creed as it was a compromised Creed that strongly favored Oneness Modalistic Monarchianism (“Sabellianism”).

See the video again...

The person who created this is a Oneness Pentecostal.

He is slightly biased

You know, one mistake I made regarding the Armstrongite cult was trusting them to convey accurate historical information.

 

[just_truth]

Is the "sock puppet" analogy of Oneness theology a fair representation?

... I call Oneness Pentecostalism "sock-puppet theology". In their view, God is only one Person, but he dons different sock-puppets to interact with mankind. There is one puppeteer, God (YHVH), but the three Persons are simply three different sock-puppets that fit on his hand. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not distinct Persons...

... And, what are the implications of such a theology? What kind of problems are presented in the life, atonement, and intercession of Jesus, if there is no distinction between the Persons? Can an adherent of Oneness theology understand Scripture at any meaningful level with such a view of God?

It is really the Trinity theology that got a representation of a sock puppet.
Look at your Trinity illustration in a triangle, you put the deity at the center which is unknown, where the three persons got/shared their powers. That puts the unknown deity playing the three roles as the father, son and spirit.

But in the Bible, the Father is the Monad as the Supreme being. The Oneness teaching recognized the Father is the source of deity fully given to the Son, as the Spirit of God(Father) fully dwelt in Jesus. But the Trinitarians put the Father as only a sock puppet played by an unknown deity.

 

[biker]

It would appear that if the Oneness Theology is a SOCK PUPPET THEORY, that Christ Himself, agrees with it 100%


Mark 12:
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Here we have the Scribe, who spends his entire life rewriting/copying scripture/knows the meaning to Elohim/Let us make man in our image/etc...claiming that GOD is ONE PERSON by denoting that GOD is a HE. The Next verse (33) the Scribe again calls God a HIM (
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength).

We know there is no confusion here, the Scribe calls God 1 person by denoting He/Him.


That now leaves us with what does Jesus do?
If the Trinity is 3 PERSONS, Jesus should correct the Scribe.
So what is Jesus' answer to the Scribe?

Jesus' answer:

34 And Jesus, perceiving him, that he answered wisely, said to him, "Not far are you from the kingdom of God. And no one dared to inquire of Him any longer."
WHOH! Jesus "does not" correct the Scribe by explaining there is a Trinity of 3 Persons.
Instead, Jesus confirms to the Scribe that God is ONLY ONE PERSON by the Scripture explaining: (34 And Jesus, perceiving him, that he answered wisely).




And we know Jesus was not afraid to confront and correct Scribes or Pharisees because Jesus once told them they were VIPERS and full of DEAD BONES!

So, if Jesus confirms that God is only 1 person to the Scribe before ALL who were there listening in this view from Mark Chapter 12.

How is it man can disregard Mark 12 and call Jesus a liar to claim GOD is 3 Persons?

 

[biker]

It would appear that if the Oneness Theology is a SOCK PUPPET THEORY, that Christ Himself, agrees with it 100%


Mark 12:
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Here we have the Scribe, who spends his entire life rewriting/copying scripture/knows the meaning to Elohim/Let us make man in our image/etc...claiming that GOD is ONE PERSON by denoting that GOD is a HE. The Next verse (33) the Scribe again calls God a HIM (
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength).

We know there is no confusion here, the Scribe calls God 1 person by denoting He/Him.


That now leaves us with what does Jesus do?
If the Trinity is 3 PERSONS, Jesus should correct the Scribe.
So what is Jesus' answer to the Scribe?

Jesus' answer:

34 And Jesus, perceiving him, that he answered wisely, said to him, "Not far are you from the kingdom of God. And no one dared to inquire of Him any longer."
WHOH! Jesus "does not" correct the Scribe by explaining there is a Trinity of 3 Persons.
Instead, Jesus confirms to the Scribe that God is ONLY ONE PERSON by the Scripture explaining: (34 And Jesus, perceiving him, that he answered wisely).




And we know Jesus was not afraid to confront and correct Scribes or Pharisees because Jesus once told them they were VIPERS and full of DEAD BONES!

So, if Jesus confirms that God is only 1 person to the Scribe before ALL who were there listening in this view from Mark Chapter 12.

How is it man can disregard Mark 12 and call Jesus a liar to claim GOD is 3 Persons?

This is how:

The WORD is begat (not the Hebrew begat where a man and woman have a child)(there were no women and men when the WORD was begat). That takes us to the SECOND MEANING/DEFINITION of begat, for a PURPOSE. So, the WORD was begat for a PURPOSE. Therefore, there is no Daddy and Junior because the PURPOSE of the WORD is Creation, to Die for Sins, to secure our Resurrection, and eventually be JUDGE.

So that means the WORD is still both INTERNAL and EXTERNAL of God like this explanation:

God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.

In other words, the reason Jesus is the EXPRESS IMAGE to God, or the VISIBLE IMAGE to the INVISIBLE GOD, is because the WORD is not a biological offspring, but still a working part of God used for a Purpose. Therefore, they are the SAME GOD but just different parts of the SAME GOD! The same with God's WISDOM (Holy Spirit). Its PURPOSE to be begat by God was to confirm Christ and to indwell us and GIFT us the Power of God. We can see this by reading the Bible how the Spirit led them what to write.

So the Scribe is correct, ONE PERSON of God. And Jesus confirms it in Mark 12!

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

It is really the Trinity theology that got a representation of a sock puppet.
Look at your Trinity illustration in a triangle, you put the deity at the center which is unknown, where the three persons got/shared their powers. That puts the unknown deity playing the three roles as the father, son and spirit.

But in the Bible, the Father is the Monad as the Supreme being. The Oneness teaching recognized the Father is the source of deity fully given to the Son, as the Spirit of God(Father) fully dwelt in Jesus. But the Trinitarians put the Father as only a sock puppet played by an unknown deity.

You don't understand the Trinity. We believe that there are three distinct Persons within the Triune God. They share essence, not personality.

The fact that you use "roles" is hilarious because that is what Modalism teaches. They teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are manifestations of the same Person.

But, I have much more serious issues to contempate and I am not entertained by your futile attempt to defend the heresy of Modalism. The USA is facing very serious issues regarding rioting and arguing with someone over the nature of God doesn't interest me at the moment. This is a very disturbing time for our country.

 

[biker]

You don't understand the Trinity. We believe that there are three distinct Persons within the Triune God. They share essence, not personality.

The fact that you use "roles" is hilarious because that is what Modalism teaches. They teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are manifestations of the same Person.

But, I have much more serious issues to contempate and I am not entertained by your futile attempt to defend the heresy of Modalism. The USA is facing very serious issues regarding rioting and arguing with someone over the nature of God doesn't interest me at the moment. This is a very disturbing time for our country.

Does it REALLY MATTER what YOU and OTHERS believe if Mark 12 is the TRUTH?

Jesus confirmed the Scribe claiming God is One Person. Do YOU think you are more credible and wiser than the WORD made flesh?

 

[biker]

Even the Greek translates that the Scribe is calling God 1 person/being:

32 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ γραμματεύς, Καλῶς, διδάσκαλε, ἐπ' ἀληθείας εἶπες ὅτι εἷς ἐστιν καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν ἄλλος πλὴν αὐτοῦ:

33 καὶ τὸ ἀγαπᾶν αὐτὸν ἐξ ὅλης τῆς καρδίας καὶ ἐξ ὅλης τῆς συνέσεως καὶ ἐξ ὅλης τῆς ἰσχύος καὶ τὸ ἀγαπᾶν τὸν πλησίον ὡς ἑαυτὸν περισσότερόν ἐστιν πάντων τῶν ὁλοκαυτωμάτων καὶ θυσιῶν.
^
And Jesus confirms this by calling the Scribe WISE.

If Jesus calls the Scribe WISE for claiming God is one person, what would Jesus call YOU for claiming God is 3 persons?

 

[biker]

I still Believe God is Triune, but Mark 12 opened my eyes to the Truth that God is not triune in persons.

 

[just_truth]

I have always looked at Oneness theology as being made up by people without a solid understanding of Greek and Hebrew, and a weak attempt to try and answer the questions of who God is. They start with the Shema in Deuteronomy 6, and then continue down a blind ally that is meaningless. I don't say this to insult people, but rather to gently show these people how lost they are. Like the video on page 1 of this thread, I also take Trinitarian belief to be salvic. Which means that Oneness is wrong, and the person is not saved.

We have been friends for 40 years with a man that we met in a regular Pentecostal Church. They believed in the Trinity. Many years later, he was trying to trip me up on the Trinity, and prove there was only one God. I hadn't been to seminary, at that time, yet, but I had studied the Trinity. I spent a lot of time arguing this with him, using Scripture to back myself up. He was dead stuck on Oneness, and went on to write a whole commentary in the Bible from a Oneness perspective. Except he had poor grammar, and the worst spelling. I tried to help him with his English, but gave up, overwhelmed by the English mistakes. I have literally never seen anyone with such a poor understanding of English. Yet, he published that commentary, and set himself up as a teacher and preacher, and many followed him. It's beyond my understanding why anyone would follow someone not just with bad writing skills, but also with a total disregard for theology. So, yes, it is important how and what you write. But if a Oneness Pentecostal had perfect English, but held onto bad theology, we still need to walk away from terrible theology.

 

[just_truth]

You don't understand the Trinity. We believe that there are three distinct Persons within the Triune God. They share essence, not personality.

The fact that you use "roles" is hilarious because that is what Modalism teaches. They teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are manifestations of the same Person.

But, I have much more serious issues to contempate and I am not entertained by your futile attempt to defend the heresy of Modalism. The USA is facing very serious issues regarding rioting and arguing with someone over the nature of God doesn't interest me at the moment. This is a very disturbing time for our country.

Why you always tell a Triune God? While the scriptures only tell One God or Holy One.

Oneness did not teach that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are manifestations of same Person, but what we teach the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are manifestations of one God.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Does it REALLY MATTER what YOU and OTHERS believe if Mark 12 is the TRUTH?

Jesus confirmed the Scribe claiming God is One Person. Do YOU think you are more credible and wiser than the WORD made flesh?

I've already made my point.

There is interpersonal activity between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exhibited in Scripture.

I really don't care what individuals who hold doctrines that have been identified for centuries as heresies think.

As I have said, I have better uses of my time at the moment than to address heretics, including praying for our nation in the light of domestic terrorism. I don't feel like it's a good use of time to be arguing with heretics, when there is a much greater need. We are commanded to pray for our leaders in Scripture, and this is certainly a better use of my time at the moment.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Why you always tell a Triune God? While the scriptures only tell One God or Holy One.

Oneness did not teach that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are manifestations of same Person, but what we teach the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are manifestations of one God.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you hold that God is one Person, therefore your issue with my wording is meaningless. You believe there is one Person only within the Godhead.

As I have said, I have better things to do right now than argue with people who hold heretical views. We should be praying for our nation before God and asking for his intervention with regards to the rioting and the great threat that our nation is under. I realize you are Filipino so you probably don't care about these issues, but I do.

 

[biker]

I've already made my point.

There is interpersonal activity between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exhibited in Scripture.

I really don't care what individuals who hold doctrines that have been identified for centuries as heresies think.

As I have said, I have better uses of my time at the moment than to address heretics, including praying for our nation in the light of domestic terrorism. I don't feel like it's a good use of time to be arguing with heretics, when there is a much greater need. We are commanded to pray for our leaders in Scripture, and this is certainly a better use of my time at the moment.

You do realize the WORD is not really the Son?
The WORD is from the Beginning.
The WORD was still the WORD made flesh as Jesus.
Your answer depicts that you are not aware that the WORD is before our idea of Jesus.

 

[biker]

As I have said, I have better uses of my time at the moment than to address heretics, including praying for our nation in the light of domestic terrorism. I don't feel like it's a good use of time to be arguing with heretics, when there is a much greater need. We are commanded to pray for our leaders in Scripture, and this is certainly a better use of my time at the moment.

Let me ask this since it appears you are seriously out of your league here.
The BIBLE, you know, the Absolute Word of God, in the Book of Mark Chapter 12 has JESUS, you know the WORD, Who is GOD, confirms that a Scribe claims God is One Person.

So I ask, show me where Jesus Proves God is 3 Persons?

If Jesus proves that God is 1 Person, then surely you have Scripture where Jesus proves God is 3 Persons?

Show me that verse.

If you cannot show me that verse, WHO is the Heretic?

Because as of right this moment, YOU are calling JESUS a HERETIC for confirming God is 1 Person. Are you telling me what Jesus confirms in Mark 12 makes Him (GOD) a HERETIC?

 

[Reformyourself]

I love sock puppets. I’m going to make one tomorrow