Does man have a freewill ?
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If I am already saved. why do I need to believe. I am already saved?
I think your missing the big picture
God calls us to repent and believe. to trust him
I am being told i do not need to do that. That God makes me alive and saves me befor4e I do that
who do I listen to? the word that tells me repent and believe. (the gospel) or the one telling me God saves me and I do not even have to do that
Man naturally can do no spiritual good, because naturally we are evil. Jesus speaking to some men, said Matt 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Being evil we are naturally spiritually corrupt, therefore a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit Matt 7:17-18
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Faith and repentance are good fruit, so a corrupt evil tree/person as we are by nature, cant [inability] bring those things forth. 2
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Being evil we are naturally spiritually corrupt, therefore a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit Matt 7:17-18
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Faith and repentance are good fruit, so a corrupt evil tree/person as we are by nature, cant [inability] bring those things forth. 2
They dont believe Because they are not Christ Sheep for whom He died
Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
See His Sheep are hearing and believing, or they will hear and believe guaranteed Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
See in order to believe you cant be condemned. If you condemned, it means Christ didnt die for you and made you dead to the law. Them He died for are dead to the law by His death Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
The Body of Christ here is His Death, so the law cant condemn one He died for, so they will become married to Christ by Faith and believe in Him.
So if one never believes, its because they were not of the sheep He died for. Understand ?
I said 2 things:
God uses people.
God alone does the drawing.
You can go back and check. And you can see the reasoning I gave. People haven't the power to draw, only God. You obviously can't make the distinction between my 2 statements, but God does. According to Jesus in John 15, we can do nothing apart from Him. According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 3, the one doing the work of God is nothing because it is God who gives the increase. And according to 2 Corinthians 4, God did this purposefully so that the power may seem to be of Him.
This is a more detailed explanation of the position I was attempting to share.
Grace and peace.
1 Corinthians 3 verse 6-7 I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God Who makes things grow.
Oops, I mistakenly put my response to this is in another thread! My apologies for the mix-up... Here it is, in the right place now
I can say these things that affirm what Scripture articulates until I am all but blue in the face and still someone will come along and act like I didn't or claim that I said something else, the common one being, man has no choice, they think I am saying man is a bot... that false accusation has been levelled at me a number of times but I have never said any such thing. It still kind of amazes me how many seem to approach Christianity with a cookie cutter mentality that oozes logical fallacies. Man acts out of his nature and the nature of his natural self is a far cry from good according to Scripture, and yet people refuse to accept that fact, also. He is not such a bad guy they say, LOL. Oh, did you see where I posted that world-wide a person is murdered at a rate close to one per minute? Rapes are even more frequent. What a nice guy that natural man is, NOT. The free willer ascribes to the natural man qualities, characteristics, and abilities only the spiritual man possesses. Funny how people can argue with me about this and then tell me they have no idea what I am even talking about. Jeez Louise! They must just like arguing for the sake of it. And the level of misrepresentation really does get ridiculous also. One guy was so averse to admitting he was wrong he preferred to blaspheme God. Then I am told by another that I blaspheme God when I am posting what Scripture actually says against their fantasy of what they want it to say. Yes, it is quite like the twilight zone in these parts at times.
The free will position is that man does not need anything from God in order to believe, though Scripture explicitly articulates that the natural man can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God... so obviously something has to change so the person can become of aware of God's drawing them, and comprehend the gospel message, because people do not simply choose to believe that which they consider to be foolishness. Understanding is part of coming to believe. Scripture expresses this in a number of ways such as having one's mind opened, their eyes opened, their ears opened. It is stated that it is with the heart that one believes, and a person's heart requires circumcising, because the stony ground of the incurably wicked heart of the natural man is not good ground for bringing forth the fruit of faith.
from Revelation 3 verse 17-18 ~ You say, ‘I need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Your blinded by your pride
IF I AM A NON BELIEVER. I AM IN A CONDEMNED STATE
which means UNTIL I CHANGE FROM A NON BELIEVER TO A BELIEVER. I WILL REMAIN IN THAT CONDEMNED STATE
it DOES NOT MATTER WHY I DO NOT BELIEVE
IT MATTERS, THAT AT THAT MOMENT I AM IN A STATE OF UNBELIEF. AND AS THAT IS A FACT. I AM STILL IN A CONDEMNED STATE
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
2 Tim 2: 25
God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
Romans 8:5-8
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 Cor 2:14-16
14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Look man I can go on and on and on with this because I'm not pushing a "dark theology", I'm simply repeating scripture that you very openly reject. It's Gods word that teaches what you call "dark" and reject while claiming yourself a Christian and seeming to imply others that believe this are not. It's you that seems completely blind to the 2 different and VERY distinct natures that a man can have. It's you that seems ignorant of spiritual truths unveiled when we are born again. If you think we aren't ALL born broken haters of God unable to please Him, then I have to conclude you don't know the difference in being born of the flesh and being reborn of the Spirit. Anyone who has been born again in truth KNOWS the difference and will testify of it, yet you openly reject it and call it "Dark."
So you said "God does not gift or "grant" us repentance", yet the bible says "God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth", Acts 11:18 ""When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
Acts 5:31 31God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
So who should I listen to? You or Gods word? I know who I trust more. You completely contradict scripture to make your point. Is that not a red flag to you?
Do you think that hearing the word of God caused a change in you? If so, did this change result in and new relationship with God himself?
I am dumbfounded I have to do this again.
I did for the umpteenth time, and you said as I quoted above,. GOD DOES NOT USE PEOPLE
I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE REASONING YOU GAVE
I CARE THAT YOU SAID ONE THINGS, THEN SAID ANOTHER.. THEN ACCUSE ME OF FALSLY ACCUSING YOU OF SAYING THE VERY THING YOU SAID
we can not get to this conversation until you confess you did say God does not use people. then admit you falsly accused me for saying you did not say it when you did.
until then. we are stuck.. We can;t move on until you admit you made a mistake or at the most mispoke.
Paul planted
1 Corinthians 3 verse 6-7 I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God Who makes things grow.
Apollos watered. God made it grow
God USED Paul and Apollos to draw to himself. But God did the work of making the seed grow.
@Cameron143 said God does not use people to draw. You just proved him wrong..
Good thing you are not trying to convince anyone of the validity of your p.o.v.
It's impossible for a human being to ever think or try to believe they are capable of saving themselves to a Salvation condition from sinful to redeemed. In man's attempt to reach the Heavens we've barely made it to the moon. So man is limited in a multitude of ways. But more so limited in his attempt to change from corruptible to incorruptible.
For discussion purposes only, Acts 17 shows us that God made us with a inherited trait to seek after Him the best way man could. We also read that man himself doesn't seek after God. But that doesn't define whether or not we have free will. That just reveals man doesn't do what man is capable of doing.
As far as being Saved and coming to God, God manifests Himself, He draws us, He will allow circumstances to bring us into the knowledge of Him, He will send people our way, there's multiple ways that God will make Himself known to us. And from however we cross that path the purpose is to lead us to seek Him.
This results in two possible outcomes. One is rejection and the other is finding a way to hear the Gospel. And generally speaking, once we hear the Gospel preached our ears are opened and our hearts are pricked by the Holy Spirit. From that moment forward we submit to God. We yield ourselves to God. We lay down our will and take the Will of God to be our own.
So NO, humanity is not able to save themselves. Humanity is only able to respond. But that response is 100% genuinely our own.
Hebrews shows us that some have been filled with the Holy Spirit and still abandoned ship to the point there is [no more] Repentance for them.
You only highlighted part of my statement. The entire statement was: God does not use people to draw others to Himself. He does the drawing. Again, you purposely left off part of the statement. This is either ignorance on your part, or deliberate. I'm not sure. But I have explained my position in detail that people are powerless to draw people to God. At any rate, have a blessed day.