I think Paul was actually quoting Ezekiel 18:4 c - "the soul that sinneth, it shall die".
Does Hell Exist?
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I think Paul was actually quoting Ezekiel 18:4 c - "the soul that sinneth, it shall die".
I believe that life is a gift. To remain dead forever is obviously an everlasting
punishment. Even the oldest Bible book attests to the fact that the wicked
return to the grave following the day of wrath (otherwise known as judgment).
Job 21:30-32 (KJV)
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to
the day of wrath. Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what
he hath done? Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
Scripture PLAINLY states that the mortal (that applies to every human who has
ever lived) puts on the immortal (that refers only to those who are found in Christ
Jesus) at the end of the age. Nowhere does Scripture state that the soul of man
lives forever, that those who are not found in Christ survive in order to be tortured
ever after. It is a fanciful fabrication straight from the pit of hell. In fact, God prevented
Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of life after they sinned, because He did not
want them to live forever in their state of sin. God does not change.
1 Cor 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality,
then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
God has said from the beginning, in Genesis, before man sinned, that
DEATH would be the consequence, of sin. I believe what God said
1 Tim 6:15-16 plainly states that only God has immortality, and the rest
of Scriptures make plain that it is by faith alone in Christ alone that one
attains to life ever after. That means that Scripture means what it says:
those not in Christ will pass into the second death, as is explicitly stated.
They shall be utterly destroyed, and pass into the non-being of nothingness.
The dead know nothing. Scripture plainly states that also.
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy.
Luke 19:27 Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king
over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.
God even explicitly says that the idea of burning people never entered
His mind. He sees it as wickedness, and yet people promote it.
One of the most famous, oft' quoted Scriptures states that God so loved
the world that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish... PERISH.
Word number 622 in Strong's concordance.
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing
(the resultant death being viewed as certain).HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy")
– properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly
God is love. Thank you, God, for your love for us is so great, that
You made a way for us to live with You forever, through the propitiatory
sacrifice of Your precious Son on the cross out of His great love for us.
Our God is a Consuming Fire
punishment. Even the oldest Bible book attests to the fact that the wicked
return to the grave following the day of wrath (otherwise known as judgment).
Job 21:30-32 (KJV)
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to
the day of wrath. Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what
he hath done? Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
Scripture PLAINLY states that the mortal (that applies to every human who has
ever lived) puts on the immortal (that refers only to those who are found in Christ
Jesus) at the end of the age. Nowhere does Scripture state that the soul of man
lives forever, that those who are not found in Christ survive in order to be tortured
ever after. It is a fanciful fabrication straight from the pit of hell. In fact, God prevented
Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of life after they sinned, because He did not
want them to live forever in their state of sin. God does not change.
1 Cor 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality,
then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
God has said from the beginning, in Genesis, before man sinned, that
DEATH would be the consequence, of sin. I believe what God said
1 Tim 6:15-16 plainly states that only God has immortality, and the rest
of Scriptures make plain that it is by faith alone in Christ alone that one
attains to life ever after. That means that Scripture means what it says:
those not in Christ will pass into the second death, as is explicitly stated.
They shall be utterly destroyed, and pass into the non-being of nothingness.
The dead know nothing. Scripture plainly states that also.
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy.
Luke 19:27 Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king
over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.
God even explicitly says that the idea of burning people never entered
His mind. He sees it as wickedness, and yet people promote it.
One of the most famous, oft' quoted Scriptures states that God so loved
the world that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish... PERISH.
Word number 622 in Strong's concordance.
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing
(the resultant death being viewed as certain).HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy")
– properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly
God is love. Thank you, God, for your love for us is so great, that
You made a way for us to live with You forever, through the propitiatory
sacrifice of Your precious Son on the cross out of His great love for us.
Our God is a Consuming Fire
There was no place found in Heaven for him "but they were not strong enough and did not prevail, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. ". "Out of my presence, cursed as you are, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels " So hell was made for the devil and his angels it was not made for man. Not that man those that knowingly reject Jesus Christ won't end up there but I don't believe anyone is (Forgive me Father) burning now to then be taken out to be judged (great white throne) to be tossed back in.
“ hell “is a temporary holding place until this day when this creation comes to an end
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 5:28-29
Jesus is talking about this day
“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;
and the books were opened:
and another book was opened, which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”( the second death )
Revelation 20:11-15
If you look at the book of revelation you see that death and Hell in earth are a result of the forth seal being opened , based upon man’s breaking of the first covenant of mankind In The beginning ( adams covenant )
“And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
Revelation 6:7-8 KJV
then in the end of the book after you see the chaos created by sin and death and all the evils of hell working upon earth through the middle part you see that hell and death who came riding into the earth as a conqueror over mankind in revelation 6 now you see the kings return at the end and what happens to sin and death and he’ll and how everyone is held accountable by the things written in the books to every word and deed they did
But there’s another book introduced and opened at judgement it is the lambs book of life and everyone not written on this book is cast into the fore as hell and death themselves are cast into an inferno of fire and eternal death that happens after the resurrection of the dead
Yes hell exists you reference Lazarus and the rich man look closely that’s occurring to the dead men in tbe story while the living still are on earth living thier lives when we die our spirit leaves our body and goes to God for judgement if we belong to him the Christ the author of life , or we wait in hades and purgatory there is a spiritual prison where the wicked and unbelieving wait until they are raised back up for judgement this day we are reading about
to answer your question scripture isn’t ambiguous hell does exist but , hell isn’t the final destination after that day of jedgement when many are saved by the book of life (the gospel offering eternal life to believers ) but the others not in this book and all of creation the earth is already ablaze because of the prior events now hell ends death have given up thier dead in then (like the rich man in the story ) and everyone is judged by thier own deeds based upon what’s in the other books and are cast into the fire but then immediately John sees the true and glorious hope of all Christian’s
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:1-8 KJV
There is one death of the body and then the spirit is raised up to be judged if we aren’t born in Christ through the gospel if we follow him by the spirit in truth we don’t have to worry about any of that because when we die we are going to him that day to be judged by his life giving word that offers repentance and forgiveness and the things he taught and said to believe and do in the gospel
they are the living not the dead
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
Malachi 4 is always quoted as an annihilationism proof text.
However where all these proof texts fall short is that these verses describe these people being burnt up, which is what will happen yes. It already happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, but do you think thats it for those people? Of course not, because after the resurrection they will be sent into the lake of fire. Also currently they are in torment, as we see from the parable of the rich man and lazarus
Where is this quote from? Book of Enoch? NIce stuff! I Gotta read that book
It should return to the God who gave it? I assume thats how it goes for all mortals
F
FollowingtheWay
Guest
Cs Lewis has a great allegorical view in his writing called “the great divorce “ - its a view of Souls on a ride bound to hell that get to stop briefly and view heaven before they continue their journey to hell and their destruction. I personally think Lewis got the idea from this scripture . There must be some sort of ability to see souls in a distance across some kind of uncrossable chasm from Paradise to Hades.
“The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’”
Luke 16:22-26 ESV
“The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’”
Luke 16:22-26 ESV
The problem with this question is "if Hell exists (...)". The Bible itself says it exists, and that the wicked will be punished there for eternity. That is the truth. More details than that it is terrible down there, is good enough for me.
You say "The Bible itself says" So why not present the words/scriptures/verses that IT says?
.
Empirical evidence can be defined as information gathered directly or
indirectly through observation or experimentation that may be used to
confirm or disconfirm a scientific theory or to help justify, or establish as
reasonable, a person’s belief in a given proposition.
Well; I have thus far in my 79 years of experience in this life never once
seen for myself the slightest empirical evidence solidly proving the
existence of an afterlife; yet I am inclined to expect one.
Faith is believin' somethin' that ain't so.
Mark Twain
_
Empirical evidence can be defined as information gathered directly or
indirectly through observation or experimentation that may be used to
confirm or disconfirm a scientific theory or to help justify, or establish as
reasonable, a person’s belief in a given proposition.
Well; I have thus far in my 79 years of experience in this life never once
seen for myself the slightest empirical evidence solidly proving the
existence of an afterlife; yet I am inclined to expect one.
Faith is believin' somethin' that ain't so.
Mark Twain
_
My pleasure. There are many. Here is a few:
- Job 26:6 - “Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.”
- Matthew 23:33 - “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of Hell?
- Luke 10:15 - “And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to Hell.”
- Psalms 86:13 - “For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest Hell.”
- Isaiah 14:15 - “Yet thou shalt be brought down to Hell, to the sides of the pit.”
- Psalms 9:17 - “The wicked shall be turned into Hell, and all the nations that forget God.”
- Acts 2:31 - “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in Hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.”
- Proverbs 27:20 - “Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.”
- Revelation 1:18 - “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of Hell and of death.”
- 2 Peter 2:4 - “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”
- Matthew 16:18 - “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”
- Luke 16:23 - “And in Hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”
- Revelation 20:14 - “And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”
- Psalms 139:8 - “If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in Hell, behold, thou art there.”
- Job 11:8 - “It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than Hell; what canst thou know?”
- Psalms 55:15 - “Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into Hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.”
- Matthew 23:15 - “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of Hell than yourselves.”
- Mark 9:43 - “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:”
- Mark 9:45 - “And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:”
- Luke 12:5 - “But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into Hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.”
- Matthew 11:23 - “And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to Hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.”
- Deuteronomy 32:22 - “For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest Hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.”
- James 3:6 - “And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Hell.”
- Ezekiel 31:17 - “They also went down into Hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.”
.
Your proofs are what's sometimes called circular reasoning. In other words;
a holy book's teachings are inadmissible as evidence that it's teachings are
true. It's sort of like releasing a defendant on trial for robbery based upon
his saying he didn't do it. In other words: the Bible saying there's a Hell is
proof enough for folks who trust the Bible, but the Bible's testimony would
never hold up in its own defense were it hauled into court.
_
Your proofs are what's sometimes called circular reasoning. In other words;
a holy book's teachings are inadmissible as evidence that it's teachings are
true. It's sort of like releasing a defendant on trial for robbery based upon
his saying he didn't do it. In other words: the Bible saying there's a Hell is
proof enough for folks who trust the Bible, but the Bible's testimony would
never hold up in its own defense were it hauled into court.
_
Good point - if The Bible was one book, written by one Person. But - it is not. The word "biblia" means "books", and The Bible is a collection of a lot of different types of books and scriptures.
Still - if someone doubts The Bible is God's word, then they would (of course) rather listen to words from (for example) recent scientists. These listeners should rather call themselves science-believers, and not Bible-believers.