Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[rogerg]

That land is not here, And it is not now. And israel in Gen 12 15 and 17 was NO PROMISED THAT LAND. nor was it given to them as a gift..

You can post that passage 1000 times, UNTIL you look at and respond to the actual covenant given in Gen 12, 15 and 17 you will continue to fail to grasp the palestinian covenant made between God and Israel as an eternal covenant.

Okay, I didn't want to leave your post hanging out there unanswered. I read (again) the chapters you specified, and my conclusions remain the same - and by the way, I don't know what you meant by a "palestinian covenant"? I do not find it mentioned in the Bible anywhere (please post where it may be found). So, don't say that I didn't read them - I've actually read them many times in the past.
I do fail to grasp the exitance of an eternal covenant with the nation of Israel because there isn't one - not the way you intend it. However, there is one with spiritual Israel: the Israel of God. The reason I posted those verses repeatedly, is so you could see that this world, in its entirety, will be destroyed by God, so it would be impossible for any of its land, covenants (or for anything else for that matter) to be eternal. Notice in the verses I posted that the Jerusalem comes down heaven is the eternal one, not the one of earth.

If, as you claim, earthly Canaan was an eternal possession given to Israel, then my question is: has Israel been in possession of it until now? Remember, for the possession to be eternal, it has to have been Israel's from the giving of it until forever. So, was it? If there were breaks in possession, then it couldn't be eternal. However, we are assured by the Bible, that Canaan was given to Abraham's seed as an eternal possession, but which seed? The fleshly seed? No, instead, these are they who are counted as Abraham's seed and heirs of God's promise, and therefore, eternal.

[Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[2Co 1:20 KJV]
20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

The following verses demonstrate that the nation of Israel's special relationship with God was ended by God because they did not keep His covenant.

[Jos 24:19 KJV]
19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he [is] an holy God; he [is] a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

[Jer 3:8-9 KJV]
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

[1Ki 9:6-7 KJV]
6 [But] if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments [and] my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

[Jos 23:16 KJV]
16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Also, after thinking about it further, I want to correct something I posted yesterday based upon the following verse:

[Zep 2:5 KJV] 5 Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the LORD [is] against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant.

My understanding was, within that context, that it was referring to the physical destruction of Canaan at the end of the world.
However, now I believe the verse to be symbolic, but I won't go into my interpretation at this time.
Nevertheless, my conclusions of the covenants remains unchanged.

 

[kaylagrl]

I noticed you haven't included an explanined or harmonized how the Israel of today fits with God's promises to Abraham, according to
your stated beliefs.

And you find eternal in there, where? And you find eternal in there, where?
And you find eternal in there, where?And you find eternal in there, where?

I find it here...

Psalms 105, “He remembers His covenant forever, the word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac, and confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant.”


And here...

Jer.31 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.


And here...

"Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come...

There are others and they all say the same thing.

I think the problem lies with your lack of understanding of the gospel.
.

Really? So everlasting and forever mean something different to you.

And boy oh boy, talk about a red herring - if you're going to do that you need to be a little more subtle with your approach. I never said that God didn't give certain earthly lands to Abraham - I realize that God made promises to Abraham for those, but there were two kinds of promise made: one for the eternal; one for the temporal.

The verses say everlasting, forever. No herring here.

Not all of God's promises were eternal as witnessed by the conditional covenant He made with Israel,

Nope. The land was given to Abraham and his descendants. Already posted the verses that said the covenant with Abe was unconditional. In fact the land promise was expanded.

which covenant, they failed in, and consequently, were divorced by God. Otherwise, had they been eternal promises, God couldn't have made them as conditional, and they certainly couldn't have been withdrawn: eternal means eternal.; everlasting means everlasting.

Nope, there was no "they" to fail. The covenant was unconditional.

Jer.31 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Literally the sun will stop shining, and the moon won't give light at night along with the stars before Israel ceases to be a nation.

Let me ask you a question. Do you consider yourself a Christian? If so, how then could you believe that anything Abraham
had done could bring forth things spiritual and eternal? Answer: they couldn't have, only Christ's could.

For about the 30th time, God Himself made an unconditional and everlasting covenant with Abraham. Abe didn't do it, God did. Abe was asleep.

God made Abraham the father of many nations, not only one:

[Rom 4:17 KJV] 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

"As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5.No longer will you be called Abram [2] ; your name will be Abraham, [3] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6.I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.

7. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8.The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

All there in black and white. You accept the first part of Scripture but not the last. smh. Seems the issue with understanding the Bible is with you. smh

 

[rogerg]

I find it here...

Psalms 105, “He remembers His covenant forever, the word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac, and confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant.”

Yeah, one part of the covenant for blessing, one part for cursing. Because Israel did not fulfill their part, God cursed them.

"Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come...

The elect - those God saves across all people, races, nationalities, sexes, etc, - are the seed

Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Nope. The land was given to Abraham and his descendants. Already posted the verses that said the covenant with Abe was unconditional. In fact the land promise was expanded.

[1Ki 9:6-7 KJV]
This doesn't sound conditional to you?

6 [But] if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments [and] my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

Nope, there was no "they" to fail. The covenant was unconditional.

Jer.31 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

The eternal covenant wasn't the one given to the nation of Israel.

[Eze 20:23-25 KJV]
23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries;
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

For about the 30th time, God Himself made an unconditional and everlasting covenant with Abraham. Abe didn't do it, God did. Abe was asleep.

For about the 30th time. That wasn't the covenant given to the nation of Israel. The everlasting covenant was regarding salvation.

All there in black and white. You accept the first part of Scripture but not the last. smh. Seems the issue with understanding the Bible is with you. smh

I don't understand what you mean by that? I said there is an everlasting covenant but it is not the one God gave to the nation of Israel. Here it is again:

Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do you accept the New Testament as being part of the Bible? I could be wrong, but I don't recall you ever quoting
from it.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Maybe you are talking about the world that exists today, but the discussion began regarding disagreement of the blessings God intended for Israel.

No God was talking about the world that exists today.

Again, Gen 12, 15 and 17, and lev 26. The passages you refuse to disuss. Is about the land of Israel that was when abrahamn walked on it. That was when Joshua and the children of Isreal took it. That was when Christ walked through it. And is today.

The promise God gave about Canaan was never intended to be realized in the physical world.

If you want to prove this, GO to the text and PROVE IT IN THE TEXT.

Because all you are giving me is your opinion.

Your also ignoring all of the OT prophets who said what has happened will happen literally. And yet something will happen in the future that will happen (literally)

Instead, the promise that God gave was of a spiritual Canaan which promise will continue forever, just as spiritual Jerusalem, and Israel (and others) are of things spiritual and eternal, not physical.

Have you never read the below from scripture? Spiritual Israel -- those elected to salvation from the foundation of the world-- have become the true Israel spiritually speaking. No longer is it the nation of Israel. The first covenant has ended and been done away in Christ. ALL of the eternal promises of blessings from the beginning made by God have been satisfied through Christ's offering, and therefore, pertain to the world to come.

[Heb 8:13 KJV] 13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

[2Co 1:20 - 20 KJV]
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, [even] by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Everything you posted above concerns the part of the promise, "In you shall all ther nations of the world be blessed?

This IS part of the Abrahamic covenant, It began with Christ, and it will end when we all enter the new heavens, the new earth and the new Jerusalem.

It has NOTHING to do with the promise, I will make you a great nation. I give you this land and this land I give you forever..

That is land here today..


I have to break this into two parts as it is too long

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

continued

And when you say that you believe the nation of Israel will repent, what exactly do you mean? How would that be
achieved? Are you saying that every Jew alive would become saved? And even if that could happen, what about the Jews
who lived before then, would they be covered by that too since all would be of the nation of Israel, or wouldn't they count? That perspective just doesn't make sense to me. If it is to be because of the nation of Israel, then it must cover all who were ever the citizens of the nation of Israel past, present future.

Do you really want to know? Will you really listen? Not to me, But to the words of paul and the prophets and moses?

Jer 30:
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, But he shall be saved out of it 8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’ Says the Lord of host ‘That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them. 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the Lord, ‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’

Ez 37:
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Is 59:
“The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” Says the Lord.
21 “As for Me,” says the Lord, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the Lord, “from this time and forevermore.”

Hos 3:
3: Then the Lord said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover[a] and is committing adultery, just like the love of the Lord for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans.”
2 So I bought her for myself for fifteen shekels of silver, and one and one-half homers of barley. 3 And I said to her, “You shall stay with me many days; you shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man—so, too, will I be toward you.” 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They shall fear the Lord and His goodness in the latter days.


Zech 8 : (read whole chapter. but here is a snipet) concerning the remnant (see Rom 11)
11 But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as in the former days,’ says the Lord of hosts.
12 ‘For the seed shall be prosperous, The vine shall give its fruit, The ground shall give her increase, And the heavens shall give their dew— I will cause the remnant of this people To possess all these.
13 And it shall come to pass That just as you were a curse among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, So I will save you, and you shall be a blessing. Do not fear, Let your hands be strong.’

14 “For thus says the Lord of hosts:
‘Just as I determined to [i]punish you When your fathers provoked Me to wrath,’ Says the Lord of hosts, ‘And I would not relent,

15 So again in these days I am determined to do good To Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. Do not fear.

20 “Thus says the Lord of hosts:
‘Peoples shall yet come, Inhabitants of many cities; 21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, “Let us continue to go and pray before the Lord, And seek the Lord of hosts. I myself will go also.” 22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations Shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, And to pray before the Lord.’

23 “Thus says the Lord of hosts:
‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the [k]sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” ’ ”

Zech 12:
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of [c]Megiddo. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.

Rom 11:
1 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

so to your questions.

nation of Israel will repent, what exactly do you mean? It means, they will look to the one who their pierced. they will repent of their sins, repent of their fathers sins, And they will accept Jesus as their savior and messiah

How would that be achieved? Look at the prophecies. God will turn the godliness away from Jacob, They wil open their hearts. they will reptn. Just like you and I did (if you did) Salvation is always the same in all ages..

Are you saying that every Jew alive would become saved? I did not say it, All the prophets did and paul did. I trust they know what will happen. since they got it directly from Gods mouth

And even if that could happen, what about the Jews who lived before then, would they be covered by that too since all would be of the nation of Israel, or wouldn't they count? A prety nonsensical question. They would be like all unbelievers, they will be lost. The land promise did not promise salvation to all of Israel. He promised them land. They still had to repent and have the faith of abraham, or they would die lost.

Regarding whether it matters as to whether or not you are a Christian, if you're not, then the conversation would have to
move backwards to a more fundamental level to establish and agree upon basic truths, otherwise, we would talk past each
other. So, are you?

If I was not a christian, I doubt I would be in a christian chat talking about the promises of God concerning Israel. and the gospel of God as to who will be saved or not.

 

[Thewatchman]

Please forgive me, I am confused as to what the creation account has to do with the abrahamic covenanent, more directly, the part where God told abraham,

I will make you a great nation (gen 12)
I will give you this land (gen 15)
I give this land as an eternal gift to you and all your descendants after you forever (gen 17)

and later, in the law of moses, where God made provisions for them enjoying what was given to them, or what would happen if they disobeyed him (lev 26)

as for if I am a Christ. I was adopted as Gods child over 40 years ago, when I cried out to God and asked him to save me.

ps you did not offend me (if thats who you were talking to) I was just did not want to mistake what you were saying I wanted to be clear. To many people assume things, I do not want to be one of those people.

Thank you for responding and wishing to discuss..

God created man in His own image. Meaning, body, soul and spirit.


What this verse doesn't say is that God created wickedness. He did create ALL humans, including the wicked.

God does not cause wickedness.

I am sorry I misunderstood. Lets look at the Abramic covenant.

Yet, in your previous post (3047) you posted this:

from post 3047
was
הָיְתָ֥ה (hā·yə·ṯāh)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1961: 1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out 1a) (Qal) 1a1) ----- 1a1a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass 1a1b) to come about, come to pass 1a2) to come into being, become 1a2a) to arise, appear, come 1a2b) to become 1a2b1) to become 1a2b2) to become like 1a2b3) to be instituted, be established 1a3) to be 1a3a) to exist, be in existence 1a3b) to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time) 1a3c) to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality) 1a3d) to accompany, be with 1b) (Niphal) 1b1) to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about 1b2) to be done, be finished, be gone

The Hebrew word translated "was" in Gen 1:2 was very poorly translated. Using biblehub.com I searched the entire OT for that exact form of hayah. In just under 60% of that exact form of the word, translators used "become OR became". In only 6% of the time, translators used "was".

The only difference between "become" and "became" is tense. Something WILL become something else, or something already became something else.

Looking at all the ways translators rendered key words, v.2 should have been: but, the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.

You are right. There was an entire earth age that lasted a long time be it millions of years or longer maybe shorter. The one thing that is for sure the earth is a lot older than 6,000 years old according to Gods word.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Okay, I didn't want to leave your post hanging out there unanswered. I read (again) the chapters you specified, and my conclusions remain the same - and by the way, I don't know what you meant by a "palestinian covenant"? I do not find it mentioned in the Bible anywhere (please post where it may be found). So, don't say that I didn't read them - I've actually read them many times in the past.
I do fail to grasp the exitance of an eternal covenant with the nation of Israel because there isn't one - not the way you intend it. However, there is one with spiritual Israel: the Israel of God. The reason I posted those verses repeatedly, is so you could see that this world, in its entirety, will be destroyed by God, so it would be impossible for any of its land, covenants (or for anything else for that matter) to be eternal. Notice in the verses I posted that the Jerusalem comes down heaven is the eternal one, not the one of earth.

If, as you claim, earthly Canaan was an eternal possession given to Israel, then my question is: has Israel been in possession of it until now? Remember, for the possession to be eternal, it has to have been Israel's from the giving of it until forever. So, was it? If there were breaks in possession, then it couldn't be eternal. However, we are assured by the Bible, that Canaan was given to Abraham's seed as an eternal possession, but which seed? The fleshly seed? No, instead, these are they who are counted as Abraham's seed and heirs of God's promise, and therefore, eternal.

[Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[2Co 1:20 KJV]
20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

The following verses demonstrate that the nation of Israel's special relationship with God was ended by God because they did not keep His covenant.

[Jos 24:19 KJV]
19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he [is] an holy God; he [is] a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

[Jer 3:8-9 KJV]
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

[1Ki 9:6-7 KJV]
6 [But] if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments [and] my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

[Jos 23:16 KJV]
16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Also, after thinking about it further, I want to correct something I posted yesterday based upon the following verse:

[Zep 2:5 KJV] 5 Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the LORD [is] against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant.

My understanding was, within that context, that it was referring to the physical destruction of Canaan at the end of the world.
However, now I believe the verse to be symbolic, but I won't go into my interpretation at this time.
Nevertheless, my conclusions of the covenants remains unchanged.

You still have not answered my questions about Gen 12, 15 17 and Lev 26. You keep beating around the bush

You will not find the word abrahamic covenant either..

God Gave israel all the land of Palestine (gen 15) he made a covanent between himself and one seed of Abraham

That is the Palestinian covenant.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I am sorry I misunderstood. Lets look at the Abramic covenant.

You are right. There was an entire earth age that lasted a long time be it millions of years or longer maybe shorter. The one thing that is for sure the earth is a lot older than 6,000 years old according to Gods word.

At most the earth is 10, 000 just fyi

 

[FreeGrace2]

At most the earth is 10, 000 just fyi

During a Sunday evening elective at my church, where the preponderant view is young earth, the video series was from Ken Hamm, director of Creation Research.

The leader of the class, who is a YEC himself, said that carbon 14 dating is accurate out to 10,000 to 15,000 years. I didn't have the heart to point out that since carbon 14 dating shows the earth's dirt to be in the millions or billions of years old, he just refuted his own view.

If carbon 14 dating is accurate out to 15,000 years, and the earth was only 6-10,000 years old, the vast majority of soil samples would prove a young earth.

But, proper understanding of Gen 1:2 shows an indeterminant span of time between v.1 and v.2. We just don't know how old it is.

What we should absolutely know is that the earth was created WAY before Adam was created; not just 6 days.

 

[kaylagrl]

Yeah, one part of the covenant for blessing, one part for cursing. Because Israel did not fulfill their part, God cursed them.

Ok, so EG and I are using the Bible for our evidence. And we are using all the Word, not just parts that agree with our POV.

There was no blessing and cursing in the Abrahamic Covenant. There was no "fulfilling their part" . It was unconditional and you have been shown in Scripture.

The elect - those God saves across all people, races, nationalities, sexes, etc, - are the seed

Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

But not the land promise to Israel.

this doesn't sound conditional to you?

You can take every single verse in the Bible out of context, the covenant God made with Abraham was unconditional and eternal. It's written in the Word. Opinion doesn't matter. The land promise that God made to Abe was unconditional. To say anything different is either lie, or totally ignore what the Bible says.

The eternal covenant wasn't the one given to the nation of Israel.

But the Bible says it was.

For about the 30th time. That wasn't the covenant given to the nation of Israel. The everlasting covenant was regarding salvation.

But the Bible says it was. You've been given Scripture to prove this.

I don't understand what you mean by that? I said there is an everlasting covenant but it is not the one God gave to the nation of Israel. Here it is again:

Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do you accept the New Testament as being part of the Bible? I could be wrong, but I don't recall you ever quoting
from it.

Did the Abrahamic Covenant happen in the NT? The covenant we are talking was given to Abe, the land that is Israel, the nation.

 

[rogerg]

Ok, so EG and I are using the Bible for our evidence. And we are using all the Word, not just parts that agree with our POV.

Are you a Christian, or are you other?

 

[kaylagrl]

Are you a Christian, or are you other?

Why are you asking everyone that? Stop denying what the Word says! You're trying to deflect because you can't understand Scripture. I've made it 100% clear what the Words says. If anyone ought to be asking who is Christian it should be us asking you! You have a fundamental misunderstanding on this subject. Admit that and either ask questions or go study it you get it right. I'm not giving you opinions or my words. I'm giving you the Word, don't you recognize it?! If you do, what are you asking if I'm Christian?!

 

[rogerg]

Why are you asking everyone that?

Because it makes no sense for me discuss salvation or things related to it with you ( or anyone else) if you don't believe in Christ as the only Saviour, does it?
Why? Is there a reason that you don't want anyone to know what your beliefs are based upon?

 

[kaylagrl]

Because it makes no sense for me discuss salvation or things related to it with you ( or anyone else) if you don't believe in Christ as the only Saviour, does it?
Why? Is there a reason that you don't want anyone to know what your beliefs are based upon?[/QUOTE]


Bro, I have given Scripture for every single thing I posted. Why are you acting like it's not the Bible but some other belief?

 

[Live4Him2]

DISCLAIMER:

I haven't read any of 154 pages of posts on this thread.

That said, I'll just make some very brief comments about Biblical "election".

For starters, Christ is God's "elect" or "chosen".

In relation to the same, we read:

Isaiah chapter 42

[1] Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
[2] He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
[3] A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
[4] He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Here, "mine elect" or God's elect is Jesus Christ.

This is not my own private interpretation, but rather what is plainly revealed to us in the New Testament.

In relation to this, we read:

Matthew chapter 12

[14] Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
[15] But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
[16] And charged them that they should not make him known:
[17] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
[18] Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
[19] He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
[20] A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
[21] And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

Whereas Jesus Christ is called "mine elect" (Isaiah 42:1) or God's elect in the Old Testament, he is the one "whom I have chosen" or God's chosen in the New Testament. They both mean one and the same thing.

With such being the case, those who truly belong to Christ (the CONDITION) are similarly God's "elect" or those who are "chosen in him" (Eph. 1:4), with the "him" being Jesus Christ.

It's really that simple.

 

[rogerg]

If you want to prove this, GO to the text and PROVE IT IN THE TEXT.

This is the only point of your post that I'm going to respond to because we've already been though all of this before.

Here is the proof!
We can know that the Canaan associated to the eternal promise of God cannot be of this world because this world is to be destroyed and with none of it to remain. Read the below. Could it be any clearer?

[2Pe 3:10, 12 KJV]
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ...
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

[2Pe 3:13 KJV]
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[Rev 21:1 KJV]
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[rogerg]

Bro-ette - simple question: do you believe in Christ as sole Saviour? What are you afraid of by answering? If we're going to discuss these things with you and others, we should know that

 

[kaylagrl]

Bro-ette - simple question: do you believe in Christ as sole Saviour? What are you afraid of by answering? If we're going to discuss these things with you and others, we should know that

Why would I, EG and others quote the Word, call you brother, and be here on Christian chat? If you can't accept what the Bible says, you take that up with God. But you trying to throw shade on believers here because they point out where you are wrong, that is very un- Christ like. Maybe take that log out of your eye before you continue. smh

 

[rogerg]

With such being the case, those who truly belong to Christ (the CONDITION) are similarly God's "elect" or those who are "chosen in him" (Eph. 1:4), with the "him" being Jesus Christ.

Just to be clear, if you would, I'm not quite sure how you perceive "chosen in him"? Would "chosen BY him" be an
equivalent to it?

 

[kaylagrl]

This is the only point of your post that I'm going to respond to

Right, you don't want to talk about the whole Word, just part of the Word. Then ask others if they are Christians. Wow.