Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[rogerg]

I support what you are stating, I found another scripture in the Old Testament which further supports that the LORD our God harden's the heart of wicked men for HIS PURPOSES!

thank you - I'm glad that you found and understand those verses.

 

[rogerg]

ou are missing the First plagues 1-5...where Pharoah hardened his own heart first those five times.


God moved within Pharaoh so that Pharaoh would do what God wanted him to do.

[Rom 9:17-18 KJV]
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[1ofthem]

That's exactly my point- no you can't. In order to have true faith, you have to have been first born again at which time are you
indwelt by the Holy Spirt and given His fruit, one of which, is faith.

No, you can't be born again until you repent and have faith in Jesus.

There is no way to the Father but through the Son. The Father and the Holy Ghost through the Word... draw us to the Son, but we must first repent and have faith in Him before we can be saved.

 

[fredoheaven]

No our faith is a gift given through the fruit of the Holy Spirit as a result of becoming born again. Remember,
Christ is the Savior, we are not


[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

This is about for the saved, the fruit of the Spirit. What has been digging into is the root. The verse totally good for the beleivers.

Yes, but it is by Christ's faith that we are saved, not our faith. Please read closely:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Christ was perfectly faithful and successful to the Father in all that He was given by the Father to accomplish. Christ
is the Savior, we are not.

'Even we have believed in Jesus Christ...

 

[1ofthem]

Looks like you are going to have to research the scriptures on this then. If you want make it harmonize. You will need to understand foreknowledge, it seems, in my opinion anyway.

 

[rogerg]

No, you can't be born again until you repent and have faith in Jesus.

There is no way to the Father but through the Son. The Father and the Holy Ghost through the Word... draw us to the Son, but we must first repent and have faith in Him before we can be saved.

You said it yourself: it is through (by) the Son. This means that the Son must save, we can't do it-- He alone is the Savior.. What do you think the term Savior means? Please explain your understanding of it

Did you observe the verses I previously posted -- the heart being deceitfully wicked?

 

[rogerg]

'Even we have believed in Jesus Christ...

Definitely NO. I know some translations interpret it that way, but looking at the Greek, it is "of", not "in" in that part of the verse.
Besides, it would make no sense for it to say "by faith in Christ we believe in Christ". That interpretation
would be completely illogical and therefore, not possible. It is because Christ was faithful that we are given faith as a gift

 

[fredoheaven]

Definitely NO. I know some translations interpret it that way, but looking at the Greek, it is "of", not "in" in that part of the verse.
Besides, it would make no sense for it to say "by faith in Christ we have believe in Christ". That interpretation
would be completely illogical and therefore, not possible

But why look at the Greek, you have an English citation and when the verse itself says that, it would not comply to your system, now you wanted to turn to the Greek. Let the greek be Greek and English to be English. It is completely possible. Jesus says you need to believe in him.

John 14:1 | View whole chapter | See verse in contextLet not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

 

[1ofthem]

Looks like you are going to have to research the scriptures on this then. If you want make it harmonize. You will need to understand foreknowledge, it seems, in my opinion anyway.

@rogerg I can't quote your post for some reason. So here, I'll try it this way so it doesn't get confusing on who and what I am responding to. Your quote is in blue and my response is in black.

Rogerg Said: God moved within Pharaoh so that Pharaoh would do what God wanted him to do.

[Rom 9:17-18 KJV]
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.


Looks like you are going to have to research the scriptures on this then. If you want make it harmonize. You will need to understand foreknowledge, it seems, in my opinion anyway.

God knew what Pharoah would do yet he did allow him to rise up in power. God could have stopped Pharaoh at the very start if he had wanted. Yet, he still gave Pharaoh a few chances to repent obey Him.

He allowed Pharaoh the option of obeying him in plagues 1-5. Pharaoh would not so then God hardened his heart even further and brought him down showing His power over him and all men.

 

[fredoheaven]

You said it yourself: it is through (by) the Son. This means that the Son must save, we can't do it-- He alone is the Savior.. What do you think the term Savior means? Please explain your understanding of it

Did you observe the verses I previously posted -- the heart being deceitfully wicked?

Yes the heart is deceitful above all things yet it can be broken, it can be turn into a good soil where the good seed of the word can be planted.

 

[rogerg]

Yes the heart is deceitful above all things yet it can be broken, it can be turn into a good soil where the good seed of the word can be planted.

no,not where true faith and spiritual understanding is concerned. We are all born blind, spiritually speaking

 

[rogerg]

But why look at the Greek, you have an English citation and when the verse itself says that, it would not comply to your system, now you wanted to turn to the Greek. Let the greek be Greek and English to be English. It is completely possible. Jesus says you need to believe in him.

Because in the KJV doesn't translate it the way you've stated it. It says "faith OF Christ", not "IN Christ". The Greek supports the KJV interpretation

 

[fredoheaven]

Because in the KJV doesn't translate it the way you've stated it. It says "faith OF Christ", not "IN Christ". The Greek supports the KJV interpretation

Yes, we don't need to changed "the faith of" but you should not change the very definition of it in the same verse "even we have believed in"

 

[rogerg]

But why look at the Greek, you have an English citation and when the verse itself says that, it would not comply to your system, now you wanted to turn to the Greek. Let the greek be Greek and English to be English. It is completely possible. Jesus says you need to believe in him.

Here is another verse:

[Rev 2:13 KJV]
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

 

[1ofthem]

no,not where true faith and spiritual understanding is concerned. We are all born blind, spiritually speaking

Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[fredoheaven]

no,not where true faith and spiritual understanding is concerned. We are all born blind, spiritually speaking

Not only that we are ALL sinners but because of hearing and believing the word of God, people gets born again.
1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[rogerg]

Yes, we don't need to changed "the faith of" but you should not change the very definition of it in the same verse "even we have believed in"

I don't understand what you're saying - I didn't change anything. Your statement doesn't make sense to me, please clarify

 

[fredoheaven]

Here is another verse:

[Rev 2:13 KJV]
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

So what are you trying to point out, as long as that is found in the KJV then I have no problem.

 

[rogerg]

Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Communicating the Gospel message to those who have been born again triggers an awareness of the substance of the faith they have been given.
Please observe

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

The "hearing" of verse 17 is of spiritual hearing, not physical hearing. God has to grant ears that can hear spiritually, in order to truly hear

 

[rogerg]

So what are you trying to point out, as long as that is found in the KJV then I have no problem.

Okay thanks - it is from the KJV