Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Your opinion. We're going to have to disagree on this

That's fine, but it is obvious that the 2 verses clearly show that election is to service.

Where do you find salvation in any of this?

I am not claiming the fruit of the Spirit has anything to do with getting saved, I am claiming that it is a result of being saved - God's work.

Did you read what I said about the fruit of the Spirit. It is accomplished only when the believer is filled with the Spirit. Do you understand that?

I don't think that you're actually reading or fathoming my reply. I gave you a verse that listed some of those fruit. Faith is one of them. I'll give you the verse again. If you actually read it, you can see there are several attributes to it.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

What, then is your point? Of course there are a number of attributes to it. 9 to be exact. And only 6 out of 28 English translations render the word "faith". The rest have "faithfulness" which fits much better. Believers will be faithful when filled with the Spirit.

Can you explain what the filling of the Spirit is and how one obeys the command to be filled with the Spirit?

Look, this dialog is becoming ridiculous. I think it is pointless to continue it since we're both expending time and effort needlessly and neither will convenience the other.

Right. When you can read 1 Cor 1:27,28 and deny that election is to service, yes, the discussion is over. You are just not open to the obvious truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Seriously? What world do you think John lived in? What world do YOU live in? Or maybe, what universe did you come from?

FYI: John didn't write the Bible God did:

You didn't answer my questions.

[2Ti 3:16 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You have been corrected by Scripture but you resist it.

 

[justpassinthrough]

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Nothing here about limited atonement.



For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2




Who are you saying is excluded from the world?






JPT

 

[brightfame52]

If Salvation is by grace, then its by election ! Paul definitely writes that Salvation is by Grace opposed to works Eph 2:5,8-9

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Also Paul when writing of the elect jews in Rom 11 indicates that Salvation by Grace apart from works stems out of the Election of Grace Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace [election of grace], then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

In Vs 6 here Paul has joind "by grace" with Vs5 " the election of grace"

And so if by grace [election of grace] its no more of works, which coincides with Paul's writing to the Ephesians that Salvation is by Grace through Faith and not of works !

Some will argue, that Eph 2:8 mentions Faith, yes it does, because faith/believing is through Grace [election of grace] Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

The Faith of Gods Elect Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

There's no Preaching Salvation by Grace through Faith without preaching the Election of Grace !

 

[Icedaisey]

Nothing here about limited atonement.



For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

JPT

You're correct. Nothing in John 3:14-17 about limited atonement, atonement, crucifixion on the cross, or Jesus' death.

Who are you saying is excluded from the world?

Do the scriptures state every person is Saved?

World in Greek is Kosmos.
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

The place we inhabit. If God sent Jesus to save everyone, Jesus would not have stayed, no one comes to him unless God calls them. Nor , as Jesus stated, could every person on Earth understand his teachings. Because Jesus spoke in Parables so that not every person on Earth could understand. And as we know Jesus parables, and that instruction regarding exclusivity in comprehension of Jesus' teachings, continue in the New Testament.

Then there is the belief Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. And that then means all people are Saved.

But that isn't understanding the context of the passage.

The sins of the world.
Not the sins in the world.

The sins of the world are many. Murder, robbery,adultery,idolatry,etc...

 

[FreeGrace2]

If Salvation is by grace, then its by election.

No it's not. There are NO verses that teach election is to salvation. It is FAITH/believing that is to salvation.

Election is to service. I've shown you many verses.

Paul definitely writes that Salvation is by Grace opposed to works Eph 2:5,8-9

Yes, of course. But this doesn't prove or even support your claim.

5

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

See? Nothing here about election. Salvation is through faith. And every verse that teaches HOW to have salvation/eternal life says it is by faith/believing. There is NOTHING about election.

Election follows salvation. and election involves unsaved people as well, so your view of election is patently false.

Judas was chosen, in Jesus' own words, in John 6:64, 70,71.

Jesus was chosen. Do you believe He was chosen to salvation? Or service?

Also Paul when writing of the elect jews in Rom 11 indicates that Salvation by Grace apart from works stems out of the Election of Grace Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace [election of grace], then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You are simply confused about grace. Those God has chosen for service were chosen unconditionally. That's what grace means.

Grace means unmerited favor. iow, it's unearned, which is what Rom 11:5,6 says.

In Vs 6 here Paul has joind "by grace" with Vs5 " the election of grace"

You are seeing things. He didn't "join" anything.

Some will argue, that Eph 2:8 mentions Faith, yes it does, because faith/believing is through Grace [election of grace] Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Do you not realize that the ONLY REASON a person is able to believe is because God revealed Himself through creation (Rom 11:19-21), and He created mankind with a conscience so that they CAN understand the gospel and then believe it.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Do the scriptures state every person is Saved?

No. It’s only those who obey the Lord Jesus Christ are saved.



And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Hebrews 5:9

• the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him

JPT

 

[FreeGrace2]

No. It’s only those who obey the Lord Jesus Christ are saved.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Hebrews 5:9

• the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him

JPT

Could you clarify by listing specifically what must be obeyed in order to be saved?

Thanks.

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 11:5

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

In this scripture Paul is specifically referring to some of his kinsmen according to the flesh. Now however that said, its a mistake to limit the remnant according to the election of grace to just ethnic jews or Pauls kinsmen according to the flesh. Thats as foolish as saying Salvation by Grace is limited to Pauls kinsmen according to the flesh, ethnic jews. Its written of the Gentiles Acts 15:11

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we[jews] shall be saved, even as they[gentiles].

Acts 15:14,17-18

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

This sacred passage speaks to a remnant according to the election of Grace taken out of the gentiles.

The jews were just as fortunate as the gentiles that God had also reserved in them a remnant according to the election of Grace !

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rom 11:5

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

In this scripture Paul is specifically referring to some of his kinsmen according to the flesh. Now however that said, its a mistake to limit the remnant according to the election of grace to just ethnic jews or Pauls kinsmen according to the flesh. Thats as foolish as saying Salvation by Grace is limited to Pauls kinsmen according to the flesh, ethnic jews. Its written of the Gentiles Acts 15:11

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we[jews] shall be saved, even as they[gentiles].

Acts 15:14,17-18

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

This sacred passage speaks to a remnant according to the election of Grace taken out of the gentiles.

The jews were just as fortunate as the gentiles that God had also reserved in them a remnant according to the election of Grace !

You still haven't shown that election is to salvation. There are no verses about that.

 

[rogerg]

In this scripture Paul is specifically referring to some of his kinsmen according to the flesh. Now however that said, its a mistake to limit the remnant according to the election of grace to just ethnic jews or Pauls kinsmen according to the flesh. Thats as foolish as saying Salvation by Grace is limited to Pauls kinsmen according to the flesh, ethnic jews. Its written of the Gentiles Acts 15:11

brightfame, FreeGrace2 just does not get it. He (she?) is apparently unable to read several biblical sentences that relate to each other, and formulate into a a logical, non-contradictory interpretation. After reading some of his posts though, I would suggest that he change his name from FreeGrace2 to a different one, as that one definitely doesn't fit him

 

[Icedaisey]

No. It’s only those who obey the Lord Jesus Christ are saved.



And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Hebrews 5:9

• the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him

JPT

No. It's only those who's name was written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world.

And those named can only come to Jesus when God calls them. Those called understand Jesus' teachings. Whereas those not meant to understand and be Saved do not.

That's scripture that has already been posted.

 

[FreeGrace2]

brightfame, FreeGrace2 just does not get it.

Show me any verse that says election is to salvation.

He (she?) is apparently unable to read several biblical sentences that relate to each other, and formulate into a a logical, non-contradictory interpretation.

Rather, apparently you are UNABLE to find ANY verse that shows election being to salvation.

otoh, there are many verses that specifically and clearly show that election is to service.

After reading some of his posts though, I would suggest that he change his name from FreeGrace2 to a different one, as that one definitely doesn't fit him

Are you able to explain yourself here? Please try.

 

[Icedaisey]

brightfame, FreeGrace2 just does not get it. He (she?) is apparently unable to read several biblical sentences that relate to each other, and formulate into a a logical, non-contradictory interpretation. After reading some of his posts though, I would suggest that he change his name from FreeGrace2 to a different one, as that one definitely doesn't fit him

Wouldn't that fit with scripture? God's plan calls many but few are actually those chosen by Him before the foundation of the world.

“And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables.

“That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?” Mark 4:10-13

 

[rogerg]

Are you able to explain yourself here? Please try.

Show me any verse that says election is to salvation.

I know this will probably be futile but I guess that hope springs eternal

[2Ti 1:9 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The "us" in the verse identifies them as of the elect with salvation and grace given them before world began. Individually called = individually elected. If you were to read the verse slowly and carefully you would see what is being communicated there.

[Eph 1:5-7 KJV]
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

They were PREDESTINATED (elected) and were MADE accepted into the beloved for their REDEMPTION with their sins FORGIVEN. How?
Solely through the riches of His grace and by NOTHING they had done.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Why/how did you come to choose the name FreeGrace2 since you apparently don't believe that grace is truly free?

 

[justpassinthrough]

Could you clarify by listing specifically what must be obeyed in order to be saved?

Thanks.

The Gospel.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:16-17



For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17



in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8




Now concerning His commandments that are written on our heart and mind, can you provide a list of which commandments that written within us?



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4




JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

No

So you don’t believe this scripture?


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



How about this one?


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ” —


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. John 3:24





JPT

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Show me any verse that says election is to salvation.

I know this will probably be futile but I guess that hope springs eternal

It will only be futile IF IF IF you DON'T quote a verse that teaches that election is to salvaton.

[2Ti 1:9 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Futile.

The "us" in the verse identifies them as of the elect with salvation and grace given them before world began.

Says nothing abouty "before the world began". Again, futile.

Individually called = individually elected.

The Greek words are quite different, which you apparently weren't aware. Futile.

If you were to read the verse slowly and carefully you would see what is being communicated there.

Yes, I did and yes I do. It's your view that needs a lot of work.

[Eph 1:5-7 KJV]
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Futile.

They were PREDESTINATED (elected) and were MADE accepted into the beloved for their REDEMPTION with their sins FORGIVEN. How?

If you think the words 'predestinated" and "elected" are synonymous, you have a whole lot to learn yet. Which may be futile.

Solely through the riches of His grace and by NOTHING they had done.

Nothing about election.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Futile. First, the Greek word means to "arrange in order", and comes from military usage. The voice (look it up) form here can be either middle or passive. This form of the voice requires context to determine which it is. And we do that from v.44, which says "nearly the whole city" came to hear Paul the next Sabbath. This shows that the word 'tasso' is middle voice, as it was the people themselves arranged themselves together to hear Paul. So the verse isn't EVEN about what God chose.

Why/how did you come to choose the name FreeGrace2 since you apparently don't believe that grace is truly free?

This clearly demonstrates your difficulty in comprehending rather simple concepts. I've shown NOTHING that would lead to such a absurd conclusion.

Grace is free. Absolutely. But since you aren't able to figure that out from my posts, all comprehension problems are with you.

Sad.

But, given your faulty view, in what post did you think (wrongly) that I have claimed that works are required for salvation?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Could you clarify by listing specifically what must be obeyed in order to be saved?

Thanks.

The Gospel.

OK. That was "helpful".

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:16-17

OK, now, can you explain what "obey the gospel" means and includes?

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17

Yes, I have the same access to bible study tools as you do and you seem able to find all the "obey" words that are attached to "gospel".

Now, please specifically explain HOW one "obeys the gospel" if you can.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

What is your view of "fire" in Scripture? iow, what does it refer to?

Now concerning His commandments that are written on our heart and mind, can you provide a list of which commandments that written within us?

There is no list. The question is irrelevant. What has been written on our heart is our conscience. Rom 2:14,15

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Do you really think that believers can be ignorant of truth?

 

[Icedaisey]

So you don’t believe this scripture?


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



How about this one?


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ” —


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. John 3:24





JPT

Far be it from me to attempt to reason with someone who does not live in the peace of Christ's eternal irrevocable security, and while fearing they have to work all their life to stay saved.