Doctrine of Immutability (Eternal Security)

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notuptome said:
I have not changed anything. You are now bouncing all over the place. It is are real challenge to argue against God. LOL

Of course God exists. He has revealed Himself in His word and in His creation. God created you in His image and likeness.

We know the Holy Spirit exists because Jesus Christ said the Holy Spirit would come in His place on this earth. He also said that the Holy Spirit would dwell in the hearts of those who love God and do His will.

What are you trusting in?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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I'm not arguing against God. I used to be a devout Christian, been there done that. I know how Christians think, it's all in a circular fashion, never actually reaching any answers. All you have done is avoid my questions. I know there is some sort of ultimate entity, but I highly doubt the Bible is the story of that divinity.

If you notice, the doctrinal claims you just have made can actually be debated, and have been debated. My point still stands, there is no unity and no objectivity in Christianity. It is all make believe and it is composed of an elaborate ruse sustained for millennia. Often times most will fail to read in between the lines to realize why and where this all came from.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Oh so God had nothing to do with that?
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Haha is it pure coincidence that all Church fathers with authority were part of the richest elite of the time?

Is there a reason why no 1st century copies of the NT manuscripts are available?

Why are all the copies that we do have are in Greek, the language of the educated and rich? How is it possible that many of the apostles being poor, uneducated men were able to compose such literary works?

It's Biblianity, not Christianity.
 
Seedz said:
I'm not arguing against God. I used to be a devout Christian, been there done that. I know how Christians think, it's all in a circular fashion, never actually reaching any answers. All you have done is avoid my questions. I know there is some sort of ultimate entity, but I highly doubt the Bible is the story of that divinity.

If you notice, the doctrinal claims you just have made can actually be debated, and have been debated. My point still stands, there is no unity and no objectivity in Christianity. It is all make believe and it is composed of an elaborate ruse sustained for millennia. Often times most will fail to read in between the lines to realize why and where this all came from.
Click to expand...
First of all who declared you a devout Christian? Why would you have considered your self a devout Christian? How do you define a devout Christian? Or how do you define a Christian?

If you do not believe the bible you have all of creation to observe since God created it all including you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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Seedz said:
I'm not arguing against God. I used to be a devout Christian, been there done that. I know how Christians think, it's all in a circular fashion, never actually reaching any answers. All you have done is avoid my questions. I know there is some sort of ultimate entity, but I highly doubt the Bible is the story of that divinity.

If you notice, the doctrinal claims you just have made can actually be debated, and have been debated. My point still stands, there is no unity and no objectivity in Christianity. It is all make believe and it is composed of an elaborate ruse sustained for millennia. Often times most will fail to read in between the lines to realize why and where this all came from.
Click to expand...


yet you argue from your own 'gods' that you follow

human authors who distain their Creator

you know them well

why do you continue to argue the case against God in a Christian forum?

did you ever really know Him? I'm afraid none of us here can answer that one nor can we take your word for it

I suppose you now think my attitude stinks? you argue from a secular human reasoning and somehow want to drag God down to your level as though He is responsible for your obvious lack

if you seek comfort in your books, then seek it there but you sound bittersweet so perhaps you miss what you think you once had

God is real whether or not YOU personally think so
 
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notuptome said:
First of all who declared you a devout Christian? Why would you have considered your self a devout Christian? How do you define a devout Christian? Or how do you define a Christian?

If you do not believe the bible you have all of creation to observe since God created it all including you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Click to expand...

Oh so it's only valid if YOU claim to have the holy spirit then? (claiming to be Christian is the same thing ain't it?)

A Christian (according to the bible) is a person that acknowledges they are a sinner and that the only way to liberate them from that bondage and adherent consequence is to put their trust (faith) in the sin-destroying atonement of the blood sacrifice, specifically designed and ordained by God (the creator) to justify all of the faithful in retroactive-perpetuity. This atonement came in the form of the death and resurrection of the son of God Jesus Christ, that according to Christians was prophesied in the OT books of the prophets.

Faith in Christ = Christianity
Faith in Christ = Lifestyle change
Faith in Christ = Following the teachings of Jesus
Faith in Christ = Faith in the true creator

I too used the very same lines you've been using on me, except that one day I began thinking for myself and asking questions instead of just regurgitating what the pastors had taught me all along. There are inconsistencies and holes in all of the Christian doctrines.
 
Seedz said:
Oh so it's only valid if YOU claim to have the holy spirit then? (claiming to be Christian is the same thing ain't it?)

A Christian (according to the bible) is a person that acknowledges they are a sinner and that the only way to liberate them from that bondage and adherent consequence is to put their trust (faith) in the sin-destroying atonement of the blood sacrifice, specifically designed and ordained by God (the creator) to justify all of the faithful in retroactive-perpetuity. This atonement came in the form of the death and resurrection of the son of God Jesus Christ, that according to Christians was prophesied in the OT books of the prophets.

Faith in Christ = Christianity
Faith in Christ = Lifestyle change
Faith in Christ = Following the teachings of Jesus
Faith in Christ = Faith in the true creator

I too used the very same lines you've been using on me, except that one day I began thinking for myself and asking questions instead of just regurgitating what the pastors had taught me all along. There are inconsistencies and holes in all of the Christian doctrines.
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Heard that false argument many times. Perhaps you will be so kind as to show where one of these inconsistencies or holes are located?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Seedz said:
That's rather problematic don't you think?

That means that all the "Christians" out there, are right.

How can all be right if we are talking about an objective matter?
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Its not complicated to be saved. Believe that Jesus died on the cross as the penalty for your sin and resurrected on the third day for your justification before God. All the Christians out there are right, if indeed they believe in this truth. Christ and Him crucified.

You aren't a Christian, are you? So, if I may ask, what purpose are you here for? I've noticed you always seem to be sowing doubt, or maybe it is that you're just curious. I don't know your intentions.
 
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7seasrekeyed said:
yet you argue from your own 'gods' that you follow

human authors who distain their Creator

you know them well

why do you continue to argue the case against God in a Christian forum?

did you ever really know Him? I'm afraid none of us here can answer that one nor can we take your word for it

I suppose you now think my attitude stinks? you argue from a secular human reasoning and somehow want to drag God down to your level as though He is responsible for your obvious lack

if you seek comfort in your books, then seek it there but you sound bittersweet so perhaps you miss what you think you once had

God is real whether or not YOU personally think so
Click to expand...

Well, as I mentioned before, I did not fill my head with only secular literature. It was a big struggle for me to realize that if I was being honest, I needed to look into all of this from a disinterested approach. I am an engineer by trade, and I've learned that you don't get anywhere by just hoping you are right. You must first understand how something works in order to
notuptome said:
Cut to the chase and spell out why you have an argument against God. There is something you cannot tolerate about God so put it out there for us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Click to expand...

It isn't God that I am against. I am against Man claiming that God has spoken to them and that some human beings are deemed more worthy than others because of a decree instituted by this "God" of theirs, on the sole basis of tradition and "faith".
 
Seedz said:
Well, as I mentioned before, I did not fill my head with only secular literature. It was a big struggle for me to realize that if I was being honest, I needed to look into all of this from a disinterested approach. I am an engineer by trade, and I've learned that you don't get anywhere by just hoping you are right. You must first understand how something works in order to


It isn't God that I am against. I am against Man claiming that God has spoken to them and that some human beings are deemed more worthy than others because of a decree instituted by this "God" of theirs, on the sole basis of tradition and "faith".
Click to expand...


well who are you to say that God never spoke to anyone?

seriously..are we to believe that your personal experience is somehow the guiding light by which we all set our compasses?

the only One worthy is Jesus Christ Himself..now as a 'devout' Christian you may remember that from those days?

what is honesty then? how do you perceive it?

I understand how faith works and I understand how doubting works

Christianity is often badly represented even by those who say they believe, but that is still not a reflection on God
 
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7seasrekeyed said:
yet you argue from your own 'gods' that you follow

human authors who distain their Creator

you know them well

why do you continue to argue the case against God in a Christian forum?

did you ever really know Him? I'm afraid none of us here can answer that one nor can we take your word for it

I suppose you now think my attitude stinks? you argue from a secular human reasoning and somehow want to drag God down to your level as though He is responsible for your obvious lack

if you seek comfort in your books, then seek it there but you sound bittersweet so perhaps you miss what you think you once had

God is real whether or not YOU personally think so
Click to expand...

Well, as I mentioned before, I did not fill my head with only secular literature. It was a big struggle for me to realize that if I was being honest, I needed to look into all of this from a disinterested approach. I am an engineer by trade, and I've learned that you don't get anywhere by just hoping you are right. You must first understand how something works in order to actually know what you are talking about.

I probably read more Christian books than secular books. The funny thing about the Christian authors is that they assume a lot of things, and they definitely are not disinterested when it comes to finding objectivity within what we have come to know as Christianity.

You are right, No one but myself can know whether I "truly" knew God. The irony is that I am only claiming to not know God now based on what I've unlearned. You are the ones that claim to know with objectivity who God is, while many of you at the same time admit that God is far beyond our understanding.

I don't think your attitude stinks, I don't blame you for getting frustrated with me. All I ask is to have an intelligent conversation with someone that has looked into these "secular" views, acknowledges them, and still remains a christian. That's what I am hoping for.
 
Seedz said:
Read all of the Gospels in one sitting and you'll see what I mean.
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well they have never had the effect on me of causing doubt

although I have to say that Jesus is incomprehensible in our flesh

He is so not like us at all
 
7seasrekeyed said:
well who are you to say that God never spoke to anyone?

seriously..are we to believe that your personal experience is somehow the guiding light by which we all set our compasses?

the only One worthy is Jesus Christ Himself..now as a 'devout' Christian you may remember that from those days?

what is honesty then? how do you perceive it?

I understand how faith works and I understand how doubting works

Christianity is often badly represented even by those who say they believe, but that is still not a reflection on God
Click to expand...

I am not saying that. I am just saying that it seems rather impossible that God is talking to all these people and they are saying different things. This is apparent today, and also in the bible we have. The synoptic Gospels each have different theological agendas and it is evident in the presentation. There is much to unravel and look at and I doubt these posts are going to make any progress as far as communicating my views.

Maybe you are right, I should just get off this site.
 
BenFTW said:
Its not complicated to be saved. Believe that Jesus died on the cross as the penalty for your sin and resurrected on the third day for your justification before God. All the Christians out there are right, if indeed they believe in this truth. Christ and Him crucified.

You aren't a Christian, are you? So, if I may ask, what purpose are you here for? I've noticed you always seem to be sowing doubt, or maybe it is that you're just curious. I don't know your intentions.
Click to expand...

I want to make sure I leave no stone un-turned when it comes to rekindling my lost faith. I present what I do know, in order to find people that know these things also, but have remained faithful.
 
Seedz said:
Haha is it pure coincidence that all Church fathers with authority were part of the richest elite of the time?

Is there a reason why no 1st century copies of the NT manuscripts are available?

Why are all the copies that we do have are in Greek, the language of the educated and rich? How is it possible that many of the apostles being poor, uneducated men were able to compose such literary works?

It's Biblianity, not Christianity.
Click to expand...
You do not study well, koine greek was a common language all in the roman empire would speek, the rich spoke classical greek, and he religious elite jews spoke hebrew.

God wrote the NT in a common language,

Try studying some before you make blanket statements which turn out to be untrue.
 
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