Difference between Baptized with the Holy Ghost and being FILLED with the Holy Ghost vs
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We see this truth in John's exchange with Pharisees and Sadducees in Matt. 3:5-9. Clearly they wanted their previous sins remitted without having any intention of turning away from their current sinful lifestyle. Only those who are willing to turn away from their sin and to God should be considered as candidates for baptism. Also interesting, John makes a connection between obedience to the God-given of water baptism and being raised a child of God.
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I was thinking about that this morning in terms of Matthew 13:47-48 (and others) and didn't think it fit:
And before you start a response, keep reading. Next I thought I should go reread the passages that you are referencing to see if there was something more substantial to support what you suggest. And I actually found the opposite.
Here are the verses you referenced:
But here's the rest of what John said, where he actually clarifies what he does with "vipers" and those who are perhaps insincere (Matthew 3:10-12) :
Please note that first telling them what is expected, then going ahead and baptizing them after warning them of what will happen to every tree "which bringeth not forth good fruit" works perfectly with Matthew 13:47:48.
AND it allows them (not him) to make the choice concerning themselves. That way they have no excuse on judgement day as if it were JOHN's responsibility (to make the decision) rather than their own.
The Luke 3:7-18 States it again (making two or three witnesses). Verse 7 also makes it clear that he wasn't just speaking to those you or I might consider unworthy... He said it unto the MULTITUDE. (Are you going to suggest that John refused to baptize the MULTITUDE?) The warnings are unto ALL just as the promises are unto ALL.
The choice of how we want to proceed remains with us.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: [48] Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away." - Matthew 13:47-48
And before you start a response, keep reading. Next I thought I should go reread the passages that you are referencing to see if there was something more substantial to support what you suggest. And I actually found the opposite.
Here are the verses you referenced:
Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, [6] And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. [7] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: [9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. - Matthew 3:5-9 KJV
But here's the rest of what John said, where he actually clarifies what he does with "vipers" and those who are perhaps insincere (Matthew 3:10-12) :
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: [12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. - Matthew 3:10-12 KJV
Please note that first telling them what is expected, then going ahead and baptizing them after warning them of what will happen to every tree "which bringeth not forth good fruit" works perfectly with Matthew 13:47:48.
AND it allows them (not him) to make the choice concerning themselves. That way they have no excuse on judgement day as if it were JOHN's responsibility (to make the decision) rather than their own.
The Luke 3:7-18 States it again (making two or three witnesses). Verse 7 also makes it clear that he wasn't just speaking to those you or I might consider unworthy... He said it unto the MULTITUDE. (Are you going to suggest that John refused to baptize the MULTITUDE?) The warnings are unto ALL just as the promises are unto ALL.
The choice of how we want to proceed remains with us.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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@Wansvic I should also give credit where credit is due. Glory goes to God for having my newly-baptized coworker ask about the passage in Luke last night, making sure I'd notice what was important for the topic today.
Which actually means it was yesterday morning when I'd started thinking about Matthew 13:47-48 because I'd already started writing the email before my coworker started asking questions.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Which actually means it was yesterday morning when I'd started thinking about Matthew 13:47-48 because I'd already started writing the email before my coworker started asking questions.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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@Wansvic
Sigh... working non-standard shifts can mess with your sense of when I did what. Bible studying Luke 3 was last night. It stood out because of the "vipers" aspect I was already thinking about. But my memory of when I started the email might be skewed. (just trying to be honest about all).
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Sigh... working non-standard shifts can mess with your sense of when I did what. Bible studying Luke 3 was last night. It stood out because of the "vipers" aspect I was already thinking about. But my memory of when I started the email might be skewed. (just trying to be honest about all).
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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My very first statement is really important...that the thread would likely seem strange (be a mystery) if a person hasn't yet been baptized with the Holy Ghost.
In Acts 19:2 Paul asks a group if they have received the Holy Ghost yet, and they honestly answer that they don't really know what he is talking about. THAT is an awesome response because it allows Paul to start teaching them. It also seems very rare in terms of how church people would answer nowadays. But I'm going to ask you that same question.
I already assume you are a believer in the fact that Jesus died for your sins... BUT... "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" And do you honestly know what it is I'm asking?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
In Acts 19:2 Paul asks a group if they have received the Holy Ghost yet, and they honestly answer that they don't really know what he is talking about. THAT is an awesome response because it allows Paul to start teaching them. It also seems very rare in terms of how church people would answer nowadays. But I'm going to ask you that same question.
I already assume you are a believer in the fact that Jesus died for your sins... BUT... "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" And do you honestly know what it is I'm asking?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
And this baptism occurs when a person puts their trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.
Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
Please quote any verse that teaches this.
Instead, being filled with the Holy SPIRIT means being under the influence of the Spirit. This is where the fruit of the Spirit comes from.
Throughout Acts, we find believers doing great things when filled with the Spirit. It's the difference between accomplishing things in your own power (will power of the flesh) and the power of the Spirit.
Agreed. Unless a believer is keeping "short accounts" by confessing their sins per 1 John 1:9, they are out of fellowship with the Lord and cannot be filled with the Spirit. Once cleansed and purified (1 Jn 1:9) by through confession, the believer must submit or yield to the Spirit in order to be filled. It is a command to be filled; Eph 5:18 - Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,
So you see, the comparison is between what the believer is being influenced by; alcohol or the Spirit.
So, how does one submit or yield to the Spirit? First, the believer have confessed all known sins up to that moment. Then, since being filled is a command (imperative mood), which is God's will for every believer, we must ASK to be filled. 1 John 5-
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
iow, God hears those believers who are in fellowship with Him, which is through confession of sin which cleanses and purifies. Then, by asking for the filling of the Spirit, the believer is yielding or submitting to the Spirit and "we know that we HAVE what we asked".
Psa 66:18 - If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
This is why the believer must confess their sins; so that the Lord will hear.
To clarify, when one is under the influence of the Spirit, they WILL NOT sin. However, Paul also commands that believers will NOT grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.
So unless the believer is filled with the Spirit, everything the believer does is by the power of their own sinful nature (willpower). It may look good to others (morality) but it stinks to God.
Isa 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
hint: "filthy rags" is literally "used menstral rags". That's how stinky our human good produced from our own sin nature smells to God.
Correct.
True. And, we can just as quickly lose the filling by shifting our focus on "things below" rather than "things above".
To be specific, a person needs to recognize that Jesus is fully human and also the Son of God, Deity. They need to believe that His death on the cross was for them and that He promises eternal salvation to all who believe in Him for it. John 3:15,16, 6:40, 20:31.
We can only "pray in the Spirit" when we are in fellowship through confession of sin.
Not necessarily. Everyone needs to be taught these spiritual truths. It doesn't come naturally.
Exactly.
Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
Please quote any verse that teaches this.
Instead, being filled with the Holy SPIRIT means being under the influence of the Spirit. This is where the fruit of the Spirit comes from.
Throughout Acts, we find believers doing great things when filled with the Spirit. It's the difference between accomplishing things in your own power (will power of the flesh) and the power of the Spirit.
Agreed. Unless a believer is keeping "short accounts" by confessing their sins per 1 John 1:9, they are out of fellowship with the Lord and cannot be filled with the Spirit. Once cleansed and purified (1 Jn 1:9) by through confession, the believer must submit or yield to the Spirit in order to be filled. It is a command to be filled; Eph 5:18 - Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,
So you see, the comparison is between what the believer is being influenced by; alcohol or the Spirit.
So, how does one submit or yield to the Spirit? First, the believer have confessed all known sins up to that moment. Then, since being filled is a command (imperative mood), which is God's will for every believer, we must ASK to be filled. 1 John 5-
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
iow, God hears those believers who are in fellowship with Him, which is through confession of sin which cleanses and purifies. Then, by asking for the filling of the Spirit, the believer is yielding or submitting to the Spirit and "we know that we HAVE what we asked".
Psa 66:18 - If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
This is why the believer must confess their sins; so that the Lord will hear.
To clarify, when one is under the influence of the Spirit, they WILL NOT sin. However, Paul also commands that believers will NOT grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.
So unless the believer is filled with the Spirit, everything the believer does is by the power of their own sinful nature (willpower). It may look good to others (morality) but it stinks to God.
Isa 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
hint: "filthy rags" is literally "used menstral rags". That's how stinky our human good produced from our own sin nature smells to God.
Correct.
True. And, we can just as quickly lose the filling by shifting our focus on "things below" rather than "things above".
To be specific, a person needs to recognize that Jesus is fully human and also the Son of God, Deity. They need to believe that His death on the cross was for them and that He promises eternal salvation to all who believe in Him for it. John 3:15,16, 6:40, 20:31.
We can only "pray in the Spirit" when we are in fellowship through confession of sin.
Not necessarily. Everyone needs to be taught these spiritual truths. It doesn't come naturally.
Exactly.
As stated we have the presence of God ( Father,Jesus,and Holy Ghost ) at our new birth.
The true full use in the life of a believer is to be FILLED with the Holy Ghost,as in Acts after Jesus breathed on them and tongued of fire were above each and each SPOKE with new tongues.
THERE IS ...ONLY..ONE FILLING OF THE JOLY GHOST!
I don't understand. Are you saying that because I don't speak in tongues and have never been able to I have not received salvation? That when I die I will go to hell and not heaven. I thought tongues are a gift of the spirit and that not everyone receives that gift. Some get faith and others serve or teach and the like.
The true full use in the life of a believer is to be FILLED with the Holy Ghost,as in Acts after Jesus breathed on them and tongued of fire were above each and each SPOKE with new tongues.
THERE IS ...ONLY..ONE FILLING OF THE JOLY GHOST!
I don't understand. Are you saying that because I don't speak in tongues and have never been able to I have not received salvation? That when I die I will go to hell and not heaven. I thought tongues are a gift of the spirit and that not everyone receives that gift. Some get faith and others serve or teach and the like.
Hi Agape49,
No, no, no… please don’t think anyone is saying you’re not saved if you don’t speak in tongues!
I will explain…
A new believer is saved because when the Holy Spirit opens their understanding to the Truth of Salvation in Jesus Christ alone they know it is true and they realize their need for Jesus Christ to save them… they believe, know and love the Truth.
They repent by confessing and turning away from their sins and receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.
At the moment of receiving Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit SEALS the Believer- they are marked as belonging to Jesus Christ.
Next, the believer needs to receive power to be a witness of Jesus Christ… this is when the baptism with the Holy Spirit happens. It’s much like activating a cellphone AFTER you buy it. The cellphone won’t operate without power.
Likewise, we need Jesus Christ to empower us with the Holy Spirit. With our FIRST activation, we are FILLED with the Holy Spirit. However, like a cellphone, we lose power with use and need to be recharged or “refilled” with the Holy Spirit by stirring up the gift of the Holy Spirit inside us.
Yes, all receive gifts from the Holy Spirit but, not all have the same gifts but ALL have the SAME Holy Spirit inside them.
No, no, no… please don’t think anyone is saying you’re not saved if you don’t speak in tongues!
I will explain…
A new believer is saved because when the Holy Spirit opens their understanding to the Truth of Salvation in Jesus Christ alone they know it is true and they realize their need for Jesus Christ to save them… they believe, know and love the Truth.
They repent by confessing and turning away from their sins and receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.
At the moment of receiving Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit SEALS the Believer- they are marked as belonging to Jesus Christ.
Next, the believer needs to receive power to be a witness of Jesus Christ… this is when the baptism with the Holy Spirit happens. It’s much like activating a cellphone AFTER you buy it. The cellphone won’t operate without power.
Likewise, we need Jesus Christ to empower us with the Holy Spirit. With our FIRST activation, we are FILLED with the Holy Spirit. However, like a cellphone, we lose power with use and need to be recharged or “refilled” with the Holy Spirit by stirring up the gift of the Holy Spirit inside us.
Yes, all receive gifts from the Holy Spirit but, not all have the same gifts but ALL have the SAME Holy Spirit inside them.
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This is how the the Bible tells us to be filled with the Holy Spirit:
Wherefore, I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God which is in thee, by the putting on of mine hands.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Tim.1.6&version=GNV
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph.5.18,Eph.5.19,Eph.5.20,Eph.5.21&version=KJV
Humble ourself, repent, greatly desire God, thank Him, praise Him, worship Him… think about all the things God has done for you… it leads us to rejoicing… hearts rejoicing in Jesus Christ stirs up the Holy Spirit…. be in AWE of His Love for you…
Wherefore, I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God which is in thee, by the putting on of mine hands.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Tim.1.6&version=GNV
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph.5.18,Eph.5.19,Eph.5.20,Eph.5.21&version=KJV
Humble ourself, repent, greatly desire God, thank Him, praise Him, worship Him… think about all the things God has done for you… it leads us to rejoicing… hearts rejoicing in Jesus Christ stirs up the Holy Spirit…. be in AWE of His Love for you…
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This is how the the Bible tells us to be filled with the Holy Spirit:
Wherefore, I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God which is in thee, by the putting on of mine hands.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Tim.1.6&version=GNV
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph.5.18,Eph.5.19,Eph.5.20,Eph.5.21&version=KJV
Humble ourself, repent, greatly desire God, thank Him, praise Him, worship Him… think about all the things God has done for you… it leads us to rejoicing… hearts rejoicing in Jesus Christ stirs up the Holy Spirit…. be in AWE of His Love for you…
Wherefore, I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God which is in thee, by the putting on of mine hands.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Tim.1.6&version=GNV
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph.5.18,Eph.5.19,Eph.5.20,Eph.5.21&version=KJV
Humble ourself, repent, greatly desire God, thank Him, praise Him, worship Him… think about all the things God has done for you… it leads us to rejoicing… hearts rejoicing in Jesus Christ stirs up the Holy Spirit…. be in AWE of His Love for you…
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It should be seen by all believers that every believer, being in Christ, is baptized with the Holy Spirit. To be filled with the Holy Spirit would be submitting fully to God and not making exception to any of it. This is what having the fruits of Spirit involves. We should grow with those. With being filled with the Spirit there would not be limit to any of the fruits. I actually do not believe that happens with believers now though originally it did, any now with that happening are some very great exception.
I disagree the Holy Spirit in the Believer will produce the Fruits of the Spirit or what is HIS Nature of Characteristics. The believer is to live their life and these characteristics must be seen in the Believer by those in the world and in the church. One who is obedient and faithful to GOD will have these things seen in their life.
- Love
- Joy
- Peace
- Patience
- Kindness
- Goodness
- Faithfulness
- Gentleness
- Self-control
First of all, you must study the scriptures carefully to understand the nature of the falling of the Holy Ghost and who it fell on, how and when.
It was promised as the power from on high to the 11 apostles in Luke 24:49 as well as mentioned earlier by John the Baptist in Luke 3:16 and Matt 3:11, and also in Acts 1:5. The power from on high was then in fact given to the 11 as recorded in Acts 2 when it fell on them and they spoke in other tongues. The falling of the Holy Ghost was then only enabled by the laying on of the apostle's hands after which those persons upon whom their hands were laid upon also spoke in tongues as well as were able to exhibit other miraculous manifestations of the Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10. The only other occasion where the Spirit fell without the laying on of the apostle's hands was recorded in Acts 10 when the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius and his household which was a sign from God that the Gentiles were to also be included in the body of Christ.
So today, there are no apostles by which the Holy Ghost can miraculously fall on anyone through the laying on of hands since they are all dead. What the baptised believer receives today is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, no different than that which was promised to the Jews on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38. There is no baptism of the Holy Ghost today.
It was promised as the power from on high to the 11 apostles in Luke 24:49 as well as mentioned earlier by John the Baptist in Luke 3:16 and Matt 3:11, and also in Acts 1:5. The power from on high was then in fact given to the 11 as recorded in Acts 2 when it fell on them and they spoke in other tongues. The falling of the Holy Ghost was then only enabled by the laying on of the apostle's hands after which those persons upon whom their hands were laid upon also spoke in tongues as well as were able to exhibit other miraculous manifestations of the Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10. The only other occasion where the Spirit fell without the laying on of the apostle's hands was recorded in Acts 10 when the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius and his household which was a sign from God that the Gentiles were to also be included in the body of Christ.
So today, there are no apostles by which the Holy Ghost can miraculously fall on anyone through the laying on of hands since they are all dead. What the baptised believer receives today is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, no different than that which was promised to the Jews on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38. There is no baptism of the Holy Ghost today.
It seems disagreement is not from being pentecostal, or charismatic. But no, with being saved there is not automatic production of the spiritual fruit, that is obvious to me from seeing others. Spiritual fruit, which should come as this is the main evidence of being sealed in our salvation, comes with more submission to God with the will of God revealed to us. You have yet to show you have more love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control for evidence to any other of having more submission to God with the will of God revealed. I am not perfect in that. But relative to where I was starting from these fruits are greatly produced in me, which I can give thanks to God for, as I grow to submit further to God's will that I am shown.
Baptism in the Spirit is applied to all believers, with God's Spirit then continually dwelling with them. This happens to start with, and all the growth remains to happen, after that, most probably for life while here.
Baptism in the Spirit is applied to all believers, with God's Spirit then continually dwelling with them. This happens to start with, and all the growth remains to happen, after that, most probably for life while here.
At the moment of repentance/acceptance, God’s Holy Spirit enters their spiritual hearts (RV 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (RM 8:9) and identifying them with Christ’s worldwide/catholic body or church (CL 1:18). This manifold event is called spiritual birth or baptism (1CR 12:13). We can infer that this dynamic occurs also for pre-NT believers, because there is no salvation outside of Christ’s ekklesia or church (ACTS 4:12)