Dietary Law?

[john832]

It is in the grammatical construction of Heb 8:13. . .where the covenant is not "becoming" obsolete.

"he has made the first one obsolete"

Because it "is obsolete," it "will soon disappear". . .at the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple
and the sacrifices.

The grammatical construction of Heb 8:13 is that the Mosaic covenant is obsolete now.

And in addition, because Israel did not keep the Mosaic covenant (Jer 11:2-14),
God promised a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34), not like the Mosaic covenant (Jer 31:32).

God is not saying in Jer 31:31-34 that both covenants will be in force at the same time.

God is saying that the Mosaic covenant to be their God was conditioned on obedience
to the Mosiac law, which they flagrantly disobeyed (Jer 11:2-14) and were not able
to keep (Gal 3:10-12; Ro 3:10), therefore, he will give them a new covenant that is not
conditioned on their ability to keep it, but on God's operation of his Spirit within them (Jer 31:31-34).

Your notion of both covenants being in force now at the same time makes no Biblical sense.
So who has been under the Mosaic covenant, rather than the new covenant, for the last 2,000 years?
Has a covenant been in force for the last 2,000 years which includes no one?
Or is everyone now under two covenants?

The Mosaic covenant is now obsolete.

Yes it is becoming obsolete. So when the New Covenant is established, whom is it established with?


Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Is that the case today?

 

[john832]

Correction of post immediately previous:

NB: The covenant being made obsolete as shown in post #254 here,
the regulations on which it was based are also obsolete,
and nothing is ceremonially unclean anymore; i.e., against the law.

What do you mean ceremonially unclean? That phrase is not in the Bible, what do you mean by it.

 

[Elin]

NB: The covenant being made obsolete as shown in post #254 here,
the regulations on which it was based are also obsolete,
and nothing is ceremonially unclean anymore; i.e., against the law.

What do you mean ceremonially unclean? That phrase is not in the Bible, what do you mean by it.

Ceremonially unclean according to the Levitical ceremonial regulations for physical defilement,
which is not moral defilement, according to the regulations of the Ten Commandments.

The Levitical ceremonial regulations regarding physical (non-moral) defilement were to teach
the nature of sin as spiritual defilement, which must be cleansed to have fellowship with God.

 

[Hizikyah]

Ceremonially unclean according to the Levitical ceremonial regulations for physical defilement,
which is not moral defilement, according to the regulations of the Ten Commandments.

The Levitical ceremonial regulations regarding physical (non-moral) defilement were to teach
the nature of sin as spiritual defilement, which must be cleansed to have fellowship with God.

If one had a permanent physical illness would they have been considered ceremonially unclean?

 

[Elin]

If one had a permanent physical illness would they have been considered ceremonially unclean?

Ceremonial uncleanness does not exist anymore because, when the Mosaic covenant was made obsolete (Heb 8:13), the Mosaic laws on which it was based were also made obsolete.

The only defilement in the new covenant is the spiritual defilement of disobedience to the NT commands.

And yes, some sin (like permanent physical disfiguration in the OT) cannot be cleansed; namely, unbelief.

 

[Elin]

: Dietary Law?

Originally Posted by Elin
It is in the grammatical construction of Heb 8:13. . .where the covenant is not "becoming" obsolete.

"he has made the first one obsolete"

Because it "is obsolete," it "will soon disappear". . .at the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple
and the sacrifices.

The grammatical construction of Heb 8:13 is that the Mosaic covenant is obsolete now.

And in addition, because Israel did not keep the Mosaic covenant (Jer 11:2-14),
God promised a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34), not like the Mosaic covenant (Jer 31:32).

God is not saying in Jer 31:31-34 that both covenants will be in force at the same time.

God is saying that the Mosaic covenant to be their God was conditioned on obedience
to the Mosiac law, which they flagrantly disobeyed (Jer 11:2-14) and were not able
to keep (Gal 3:10-12; Ro 3:10), therefore, he will give them a new covenant that is not
conditioned on their ability to keep it, but on God's operation of his Spirit within them (Jer 31:31-34).

Your notion of both covenants being in force now at the same time makes no Biblical sense.
So who has been under the Mosaic covenant, rather than the new covenant, for the last 2,000 years?
Has a covenant been in force for the last 2,000 years which includes no one?
Or is everyone now under two covenants?

The Mosaic covenant is now obsolete. ​

Again, where does the scripture say that the Old Covenant disappeared in 70AD at the destruction of Jerusalem?​

It doesn't.

Rather, Scripture states that the Mosaic covenant "is made obsolete," "is obsolete" and
"will soon disappear."
The destruction of Jerusalem, the temple and the sacrifices qualify as a catastrophic event for such.

However, Heb 8:13 is clear that the Mosaic covenant is "made obsolete", and "is obsolete."
It is foolish heresy to argue against the obsolescence of the Mosaic covenant.



​

 

[Elin]

Spiritual circumcision of the heart is part of the New Covenant.

As with the Abrahamic covenant of Ge 15:9-21, there are no conditions of performance
for the New Covenant, including physical circumcision.

Nope, it is not. It was proposed under the Old Covenant...

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Have you read Col 2:11; Php 3:3?

Tell me what you think, do you think that I have read either of those two books?

Tell me what you think is the meaning of Col 2:11 and Php 3:3.

 

[Hizikyah]

It doesn't.

Rather, Scripture states that the Mosaic covenant "is made obsolete," "is obsolete" and
"will soon disappear."
The destruction of Jerusalem, the temple and the sacrifices qualify as a catastrophic event for such.

However, Heb 8:13 is clear that the Mosaic covenant is "made obsolete", and "is obsolete."
It is foolish heresy to argue against the obsolescence of the Mosaic covenant.



[/INDENT]

I think it is the "levitical priesthood" that is obsolete

Psalm 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."

Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

No? Still there? So according to HIM, not me, Him, nothing will pass from the Law. (the real Sacifice is complete, and the Pristhood has taken on it true form, as Yahshua is the High Priest now.)

"Unless heaven and earth passes away..the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law"

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, Yahweh Shammah, coming down from Yahweh out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himself will be with them, and be their Father.

 

[Elin]

The covenant being made obsolete as shown in post #254 here,
the regulations on which it was based are also obsolete,
and nothing is ceremonially unclean anymore; i.e., against the law.

Ceremonially unclean is according to the Levitical ceremonial regulations for
physical defilement, which is not moral (spiritual) defilement,
according to the regulations of the Ten Commandments.

The Levitical ceremonial regulations regarding physical (non-moral) uncleanness/
defilement were to teach the nature of sin as spiritual defilement,
which must be cleansed to have fellowship with God.

So you contend that nothing is unclean? Do you really mean nothing is against the Law?

Answered in my posts to you above.

 

[john832]

Answered in my posts to you above.

It doesn't.

Rather, Scripture states that the Mosaic covenant "is made obsolete," "is obsolete" and
"will soon disappear."
The destruction of Jerusalem, the temple and the sacrifices qualify as a catastrophic event for such.

However, Heb 8:13 is clear that the Mosaic covenant is "made obsolete", and "is obsolete."
It is foolish heresy to argue against the obsolescence of the Mosaic covenant.



[/INDENT]

Seems to be a little supposition there. So, because the Romans destroyed the city and Temple in 70 AD that is the end of the Covenant?

Why not when Judah went into captivity and the Temple was sacked and burned?

And can you show me where scripture says the Mosaic Covenant was made obsolete?

 

[Laodicea]

The vegetarian diet was given before the fall when there was no death, including of animals.

After the fall and death, the same God gave "everything that lives and moves" (Ge 9:3) as food
because he does know best.

(Gen 9:4) But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

 

[john832]

What do you mean ceremonially unclean? That phrase is not in the Bible, what do you mean by it.

Answered in my posts to you above.

Children can be unclean...

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Things can be unclean...

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

One can touch unclean things...

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

People can be unclean...

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Seems to me that things can be either clean or unclean today.

 

[Elin]

It is in the grammatical construction of Heb 8:13. . .where the covenant is not "becoming" obsolete.

"he has made the first one obsolete"

Because it "is obsolete," it "will soon disappear". . .at the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple
and the sacrifices.

The grammatical construction of Heb 8:13 is that the Mosaic covenant is obsolete now.

And in addition, because Israel did not keep the Mosaic covenant (Jer 11:2-14),
God promised a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34), not like the Mosaic covenant (Jer 31:32).

God is not saying in Jer 31:31-34 that both covenants will be in force at the same time.

God is saying that the Mosaic covenant to be their God was conditioned on obedience
to the Mosiac law, which they flagrantly disobeyed (Jer 11:2-14) and were not able
to keep (Gal 3:10-12; Ro 3:10), therefore, he will give them a new covenant that is not
conditioned on their ability to keep it, but on God's operation of his Spirit within them (Jer 31:31-34).

Your notion of both covenants being in force now at the same time makes no Biblical sense.
So who has been under the Mosaic covenant, rather than the new covenant, for the last 2,000 years?
Has a covenant been in force for the last 2,000 years which includes no one?
Or is everyone now under two covenants?

The Mosaic covenant has been made and is now obsolete.

Yes it is becoming obsolete.

So when the New Covenant is established, whom is it established with?

It "is made obsolete," and "soon disappearing" (Heb 8:13).

The new covenant is established with the people of God.
According to Jesus, that means the NT people of God (Lk 22:20),
composed of believing Jews and Gentiles.

 

[john832]

It "is made obsolete," and "soon disappearing" (Heb 8:13).

The new covenant is established with the people of God.
According to Jesus, that means the NT people of God (Lk 22:20), composed of believing Jews and Gentiles.

You can call it what you want but the New Covenant is to be established with Israel and Judah...

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

God has called a select few prior to Christ's return to be included as wild branches grafted in but the Covenant is established Israel and Judah.

Perhaps a reading of Romans 11 with the knowledge of whom the Covenant is established is in order.

 

[Elin]

Heb 8:13 is clear that the Mosaic covenant is "made obsolete", and "is obsolete."
It is foolish heresy to argue against the obsolescence of the Mosaic covenant.

I think it is the "levitical priesthood" that is obsolete

I think Heb 8:13 which states the Mosaic covenant "was made" and "is made" obsolete.

 

[john832]

I think Heb 8:13 which states the Mosaic covenant is obsolete.

From the Diaglott...

Heb 8:13 By the to say new, he has declared old the first; that but becoming old and advancing in age, near disappearing.

Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. - NKJV

New International Version
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

New Living Translation
When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

English Standard Version
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

New American Standard Bible
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.

International Standard Version
In speaking of a "new" covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

NET Bible
When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.

Need I go on?

 

[Hizikyah]

I think Heb 8:13 which states the Mosaic covenant "was made" and "is made" obsolete.

Hebrews 8:

"1Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2a minister in the holy places, in the true tents that the Lord set up, not man. 3For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” 6But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8For he finds fault with them when he says:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

13In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

"1Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2a minister in the holy places, in the true tents"



he makes the first one obsolete... What was made obsolete, do not kill, do not steal, remember the Sabbath. honor your father and mother, You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie one to another. Do not vow falsely with My Name, and so profane the Name of your Father. I am Yahweh. You shall not defraud your neighbor, nor rob him. Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight. Do not curse the deaf or put a stumblingblock in front of the blind, Do not pervert judgment: You shall not show partiality to the poor, nor honor to the person of the great. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor fairly. You shall not go about tale-bearing or slandering among your people. Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor's life. I am Yahweh. You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother or your sister frankly, so you will not share in his or her guilt. Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor; whether a brother or an enemy, as yourself. I am Yahweh. Do not prostitute your daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; or the land will fall into harlotry, and the land will become full of wickedness. Do not turn to mediums nor familiar spirits. Do not seek after them, to be defiled by them. I am Yahweh. You shall stand up before the gray headed, and you shall honor the presence of an Elder or Teacher; thereby giving reverence to your Heavenly Father. I am Yahweh. If a stranger lives with you in your and, do not mistreat him. The stranger living with you must be treated as one of your native-born, and you shall love him as yourself


"1Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2a minister in the holy places, in the true tents"

Context ? Hebrews 7:

11Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? 12For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. 13For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. 14For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

15This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, 16who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is witnessed of him,

“You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek.”

18For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

for the law made nothing perfect

The Law of the Levitical priesthood....

not

"You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother or your sister frankly, so you will not share in his or her guilt. Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor; whether a brother or an enemy, as yourself. I am Yahweh. Do not prostitute your daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; or the land will fall into harlotry, and the land will become full of wickedness. Do not turn to mediums"

 

[Elin]

And can you show me where scripture says the Mosaic Covenant was made obsolete?

That would be Heb 8:6, 8, 13:

"the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs (Levitical priesthood) as the
covenant of which he is the mediator is superior to the old one, and is founded on better promises. . .
'The time is coming. . . when I will make a new covenant'. . .
By calling this new," he has made the first old (palaioo, "to make old, abrogate")
and what is old (palaioo, "to make old, abrogate") and aging (gerasko, "to become old") will soon disappear."

 

[Elin]

(Gen 9:4) But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Yes, they were not to eat blood.

 

[Elin]

Children can be unclean...

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Yes, those born of unholy (unbelieving) seed are the children of the unclean; i.e., of the kingdom of Satan, until they come to saving faith.
In the meantime, they are set apart from uncleanness (kingdom of Satan) by their believing parents.

Things can be unclean and we can touch unclean things...

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Yes, Paul is quoting 2 Sa 7:14, 8 showing that believers should not be yoked with unbelievers,
because they are of the kingdom of Satan.

People can be unclean...

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Seems to me that things can be either clean or unclean today.

Yes, in the NT uncleanness means all sin, which is spiritual defilement,
as OT uncleanness was physical defilement.

Sin is the NT uncleanness.