Did Paul sin regularly?

[Evmur]

That's unlikely and unclear. Paul is good about using the correct word tense. Paul speaks about his struggle with sin in the present tense in Romans 7. Unfortunately there's no good reason to interpret it as past tense from his Saul days.



Romans 7:14
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.



Paul is saying that his flesh does what he does not want it to do even though in his spirit he wants to do with is right.

So you believe Paul as apostle was carnal, sold under sin ... teaching us to let not sin have dominion over us, exhorting us to purity and holiness?

 

[Runningman]

You miss the point of Paul's message. Roman's 7 is the Christian's dilemma. Those who look only at the law for guidance put an impossible burden on themselves. The last verse of Romans 7 should be the first verse of Romans 8. If we stay in Romans 7, we will remain wretched Christians. And there are way too many in that category. When Christians realise that real victory is in Christ, the pressure comes off us and we rely on Christ alone.

The problem is that most Christians refuse to accept defeat. They insist on trying to change the unchangeable, fix the irreparable and cure the incurable. If only we agreed with God that nothing good dwells in us and never will, we would have some hope. But even that is not enough. We have to go from "Wretched man" to "Thanks be to God through Christ".

I know the difference. I know from the comments and posts here than many are still trying to be something that is already theirs, if they only knew it. It's as dumb as someone begging on a street corner when they have millions in the bank. The enemy here is pride. People don't want to admit that they are helpless, desperate, poor and needy. They are too full of self to leave room for Christ. We need to lose the old life in order to gain true, spiritual life that is the reason Jesus came.

It is impossible for two objects to occupy the same space. And likewise spiritually. Either you are in control or Lord Jesus is in control. The sooner we give up self will, the sooner we will gain God's will. I know where self has lead me. Up the creek without a paddle. God's will is better than anything I can even imagine. That's what I choose daily.

It does not mean a life of comfort and ease. The war never stops. But I know whom I believe and I know that He has never let me down.

Exactly. The point of Romans is that Paul is explaining his Christian theology and we can make that our theology too. Without actually saying it, he is describing having a Born Again spirit. Closely notice that no where in scripture is there such a thing as born again flesh, but rather there is our body of flesh that must be trained into submission. In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul said he is still training his body to obey him.

 

[Omegatime]

That's unlikely and unclear. Paul is good about using the correct word tense. Paul speaks about his struggle with sin in the present tense in Romans 7. Unfortunately there's no good reason to interpret it as past tense from his Saul days.



Rather than say yes or no, let's let Paul represent himself.

Romans 7:14
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.



Paul is saying that his flesh does what he does not want it to do even though in his spirit he wants to do with is right.

Of course Paul sinned from time to time as every human being does. When Paul asked for the thorn to be removed, the Lord replied my grace is sufficient for you meaning grace covers sin and the reason for grace. Grace is the free and unmerited favor of God upon the righteous.

 

[Runningman]

So you believe Paul as apostle was carnal, sold under sin ... teaching us to let not sin have dominion over us, exhorting us to purity and holiness?

Yes, Paul sinned regularly and uncontrollably. I have come to believe that he did not sin willfully, though.

 

[Gideon300]

Exactly. The point of Romans is that Paul is explaining his Christian theology and we can make that our theology too. Without actually saying it, he is describing having a Born Again spirit. Closely notice that no where in scripture is there such a thing as born again flesh, but rather there is our body of flesh that must be trained into submission. In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul said he is still training his body to obey him.

Yes. But we do not overcome the flesh by the flesh. We overcome through Christ, the resurrection life that is ours in Him.

 

[Evmur]

Exactly. The point of Romans is that Paul is explaining his Christian theology and we can make that our theology too. Without actually saying it, he is describing having a Born Again spirit. Closely notice that no where in scripture is there such a thing as born again flesh, but rather there is our body of flesh that must be trained into submission. In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul said he is still training his body to obey him.

Paul's theology was not to train up the flesh but to put what is fleshly and carnal in us to death. We are to have done with sin.

 

[Runningman]

Of course Paul sinned from time to time as every human being does. When Paul asked for the thorn to be removed, the Lord replied my grace is sufficient for you meaning grace covers sin and the reason for grace. Grace is the free and unmerited favor of God upon the righteous.

Did you notice that in 2 Corinthians 12:9-10, Paul uses the word "infirmities" in the KJV which translates to a Greek word that means moral frailty? Most translations just seem to use the ambiguous word "weakness" but it's actually a lot more specific than that. It means to be physically or spiritually diseased, but not literally. The word infirmities is about sin and temptation and I'll prove that by providing a verse with clearer context:

Hebrews 4:15 KJV
15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Now read this verse again and see if you see a different light on it.
2 Corinthians 12:9-10
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

[Evmur]

Yes, Paul sinned regularly and uncontrollably. I have come to believe that he did not sin willfully, though.

shocking.

 

[Gideon300]

That's unlikely and unclear. Paul is good about using the correct word tense. Paul speaks about his struggle with sin in the present tense in Romans 7. Unfortunately there's no good reason to interpret it as past tense from his Saul days.



Rather than say yes or no, let's let Paul represent himself.

Romans 7:14
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.



Paul is saying that his flesh does what he does not want it to do even though in his spirit he wants to do with is right.

 

[Gideon300]

So is Paul a lying boaster here?
2 Corinthians 6:

4Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships, and calamities; 5in beatings, imprisonments, and riots; in labor, sleepless nights, and hunger; 6in purity, knowledge, patience, and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; 7in truthful speech and in the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; 8through glory and dishonor, slander and praise; viewed as imposters, yet genuine; 9as unknown, yet well-known; dying, and yet we live on; punished, yet not killed; 10sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

11We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians. Our hearts are open wide. 12It is not our affection, but yours, that is restrained. 13As a fair exchange, I ask you as my children: Open wide your hearts also.

 

[Evmur]

Did you notice that in 2 Corinthians 12:9-10, Paul uses the word "infirmities" in the KJV which translates to a Greek word that means moral frailty? Most translations just seem to use the ambiguous word "weakness" but it's actually a lot more specific than that. It means to be physically or spiritually diseased, but not literally. The word infirmities is about sin and temptation and I'll prove that by providing a verse with clearer context.

Hebrews 4:15 KJV
15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Now read this verse again and see if you see a different light on it.
2 Corinthians 12:9-10
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Paul explains what his thorn in flesh was, it was a messenger of satan ... he goes on to tell of persecutions and beatings, hunger and thirst, shipwrecks, dangers from without and within from false brethren.

These were what constituted Paul's thorn in the flesh.

 

[Runningman]

Paul's theology was not to train up the flesh but to put what is fleshly and carnal in us to death. We are to have done with sin.

No, Paul taught incremental and progressive improvement. He described it as training in 1 Corinthians 9:27. Other places he calls it crucifying the flesh.

Jesus said it would be a daily challenge, a daily sacrifice:
Luke 9:23
23And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

 

[Gideon300]

Paul said he struggled with sin in Romans 7. I figured it would be safer to just assume he was telling the truth because the alternative is he lied, which I don't believe he did. Which one do you say he did?

Paul was describing his experience when he was trying to live the Christian life. Romans 8 is the answer. Paul also said this:

2 Corinthians 6:
4Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships, and calamities; 5in beatings, imprisonments, and riots; in labor, sleepless nights, and hunger; 6in purity, knowledge, patience, and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; 7in truthful speech and in the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; 8through glory and dishonor, slander and praise; viewed as imposters, yet genuine; 9as unknown, yet well-known; dying, and yet we live on; punished, yet not killed; 10sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

11We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians. Our hearts are open wide. 12It is not our affection, but yours, that is restrained. 13As a fair exchange, I ask you as my children: Open wide your hearts also.

It does not sound like a struggling, defeated sinner to me. Either Paul had come into victory or he was lying his head off.

 

[Runningman]

shocking.

I believe Paul's words and that's shocking?

 

[tourist]

I don't think it was willfully. I don't believe he would've written this if it was willful.

There is a difference between sinning willfully and stumbling. Someone that sins willfully has not really repented from their sinful life and has no desire to allow the Holy Spirit to live inside them to provide comfort, guidance, and discipline in the life-long repentance process.

 

[Evmur]

Yes, Paul sinned regularly and uncontrollably. I have come to believe that he did not sin willfully, though.

What then shall we say? are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! how can we who died to sin still live in it?

 

[Runningman]

Paul explains what his thorn in flesh was, it was a messenger of satan ... he goes on to tell of persecutions and beatings, hunger and thirst, shipwrecks, dangers from without and within from false brethren.

These were what constituted Paul's thorn in the flesh.

1 Corinthians 12:9 says the power of Christ rests upon Paul due to infirimites, it isn't because of the shipwrecks, etc.
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

 

[Runningman]

Paul was describing his experience when he was trying to live the Christian life. Romans 8 is the answer. Paul also said this:

2 Corinthians 6:
4Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships, and calamities; 5in beatings, imprisonments, and riots; in labor, sleepless nights, and hunger; 6in purity, knowledge, patience, and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; 7in truthful speech and in the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; 8through glory and dishonor, slander and praise; viewed as imposters, yet genuine; 9as unknown, yet well-known; dying, and yet we live on; punished, yet not killed; 10sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

11We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians. Our hearts are open wide. 12It is not our affection, but yours, that is restrained. 13As a fair exchange, I ask you as my children: Open wide your hearts also.

It does not sound like a struggling, defeated sinner to me. Either Paul had come into victory or he was lying his head off.

Right. Fundamentally everything is either the truth or a lie. Of course we should always assume Paul is telling the truth. When Paul said he struggled with sin, using present tense language, we must believe that at the time of that writing, as a God-ordained apostle, hand-picked by Christ on the road to Damascus, Paul was still struggling with sin like all humans do.

 

[Runningman]

What then shall we say? are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! how can we who died to sin still live in it?

Yes exactly. That's about spiritual rebirth.

Romans 6:3-4
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life

 

[Evmur]

Yes, Paul sinned regularly and uncontrollably. I have come to believe that he did not sin willfully, though.

What then are we to sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid. Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves you are slaves of the one whom you yield yourselves as obedient slaves either of sin which leads to death or of obedience which leads to righteousness. But thanks be to God that you who were once slaves to sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed.