Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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Marcelo said:
Hi, Deut! In Romans 6:14 Paul wrote: "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace ".
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Christ 'plainly said, 'If you Love Me, KEEP My Commandments' - if one takes the 'position' that
ONE SCRIPTURE (NEGATES) the other, then, there is COMPLETE CONFUSION, and,
'God is NOT the Author of confusion' - but 'who is the author of confusion'???

Paul is hard to 'understand', but Christ's Words are the very (foundation).
Paul's words are 'always' in 'agreement with Christ's', and they MUST be interpreted as such,
or else, you have an incorrect interpretation...
 
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posthuman said:
bad words by Finney:


The classical dogma of original sin, embraced by Protestants and Roman Catholics alike, is "anti-scriptural and nonsensical dogma," Finney declared.27 In explicit language, Finney denied the notion that human beings possess a sinful nature.28 Therefore, if Adam leads individuals into sin merely by his poor example, this leads logically to the corollary of Christ redeeming by offering a perfect example. Guilt and corruption are not inherent, but are the result of choices. The author responds to a number of proof texts commonly adduced in support of original sin. When the Psalmist, for instance, declares, "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies" (Ps.58:3), Finney replies, "But does this mean that they are really and literally estranged from the day and hour of their birth, and that they really go astray the very day they are born, speaking lies?" In other words, is this verse really telling us the truth? "This every one knows to be contrary to fact," as if "fact" and Finney's interpretation of his experience are synonymous. Therefore, the text must mean, "...that when the wicked are estranged and go astray from the commencement of their moral agency," in spite of what the text actually says.29 With Pelagius, Kant, and all who have been unable to accept this rather enigmatic biblical doctrine, Finney simply concludes of original sin, "It is a monstrous and blasphemous dogma, that a holy God is angry with any creature for possessing a nature with which he was sent into being without his knowledge or consent."30 Later, he wrote, "Original or constitutional sinfulness, physical regeneration, and all their kindred and resulting dogmas, are alike subversive of the gospel, and repulsive to the human intelligence."31​
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The medieval church, of course, entertained a notion of concupiscence, attaching sinfulness to desire--not the desire for a particular thing, but desire in and of itself. Warfield argued that Taylor's and Finney's twist on "concupiscence" "differs from that doctrine at this point only in its completer Pelagianism."32​
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From the denial of original sin, Finney is free to move to a denial of the doctrine of supernatural regeneration. Like revival, regeneration itself was a gift of God, a "surprising work of God," according to the first Great Awakening. But for Finney, while the Holy Spirit exerted moral influences, "the actual turning...is the sinner's own act."33 The evangelist's most popular sermon, which he preached at Boston's Park Street Church, was titled, "Sinners Bound To Change Their Own Hearts." "There is nothing in religion beyond the ordinary powers of nature," Finney declared, rendering the charge of Pelagianism undeniable. "Religion is the work of man," he said. "It consists entirely in the right exercise of the powers of nature. It is just that and nothing else. When mankind become religious, they are not enabled to put forth exertions which they were unable before to put forth. They only exert powers which they had before, in a different way, and use them for the glory of God. A revival is not a miracle, nor dependent on a miracle, in any sense. It is a purely philosophical result of the right use of constituted means--as much as any other effect produced by the application of means" (emphasis in original).34​
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One notices in the preceding citation the dominance of the mechanical and pragmatic view of the universe. It was, after all, the dawn of the Industrial Age and the human attempt to imitate Newtonian metaphysics by creating an ordered, predictable existence through mechanics and technology. As William James' philosophical pragmatism was well-suited to the American psyche, so Finney's popular version said more about the factors by which he was shaped than about the influences he himself exerted. James (1842-1910) argued, "On pragmatic principles, if the hypothesis of God works satisfactorily in the widest sense of the word, it is true." Thus, James wanted to know "the truth's cash-value in experiential terms."35 "Many servants of the Lord," the foreword to a modern edition of Finney's Lecutres reads, "should be diligently searching for a gospel that 'works,' and I am happy to state they can find it in this volume." The American pragmatic impulse that produced both Finney and James, and their respective heirs, could not have been more aptly expressed than the former's insistence upon revival depending on the correct techniques rather than on the sovereign freedom and grace of God.​
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In fact, what is already observable up to this point is that Finney's theology hardly requires God at all. It is an ethical system based on general self-evident principles that men and women can discover and follow if only they make that choice.​
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footnote references in the body of text can be found at the bottom of the page it was quoted from:
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/charles_finney_vs_westminster_confession.shtml

Finney is the guy responsible for popularizing the 'altar call' in church evangelism, creating generations of people who think they are saved because they have been emotionally coerced into repeating a magic prayer or performing some self-induced behavior modification. that is in fact, Finney's gospel: self-achieved behavior modification, having nothing to do with a Spirit that draws men to God or who works in them to renew them, but purely the power of an orator to convince them to perform a few rituals and thenceforth become 'nice people' who do various 'works' out of coercion.
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posthuman said:
we have a whole thread about it,
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We?
 
posthuman said:
here, it's yours. background reading. only about 5,300 pages atm.

click this link to read the BDF's enormous 'not by works thread'

;)
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No, NO, No, I don't go there anymore, I don't suggest anyone else go there because ALL you are allowed to say is Salvation is a gift. If you talk about anything else it is taking away from "not by works" so all you do is get in trouble and fights, and then you feel like you are causing people to sin with the "unChristlike" dissention, strife, wrangling, I leave it at that for the love of God. So, count me out, it is far to restrictive.
 
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DeighAnn said:
No, NO, No, I don't go there anymore, I don't suggest anyone else go there because ALL you are allowed to say is Salvation is a gift. If you talk about anything else it is taking away from "not by works" so all you do is get in trouble and fights, and then you feel like you are causing people to sin with the "unChristlike" dissention, strife, wrangling, I leave it at that for the love of God. So, count me out, it is far to restrictive.
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Thanks DeighAnn,

Good advice. Seems contentious enough at times on the thread we are posting to.
SG
 
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Grandpa said:
Remain faithful to what? Your understanding of working at the law??? Or Gods Law which is written in our hearts? Its not the 10 commandments that are written there.

Boasting about? I'm not boasting about anything. I'm explaining simple concepts.

Well, they seem simple to me. And Christians ABSOLUTELY should recognize what I am saying.

But those who INSIST on working at the law DON'T recognize what I am saying.

I can only come to one conclusion. Legalists and Judaizers haven't received Rest from Christ. It kind of makes me wonder what else they have not received.


I really don't think you can understand Scripture if you don't understand the Rest that Christians receive from Christ and all the Blessing and Provision that goes along with this Rest.

People who have received Rest from Christ, I don't have to explain to them why they are no longer under the law. I don't have to explain to them how and why they are Righteous even though they are NOT under the law or WORKING at it.


But legalists and Judaizers twist all the scripture to make Rest in Christ somehow mean working at the law. It is so simple to show that Rest is NOT working at the law I don't really know why legalists and Judaizers are so adamant in their failed position. Makes me think they just don't know any other way.


Were you under the law at some point then came to Christ and received Rest and then went back to being under the law?

Or did you start reading the bible and decide for yourself that you are under the law?

I think it must happen the 2nd way. I cannot fathom someone Receiving Rest in Christ and going back to their own work at the law. I was extraordinarily dumb before the Lord but even I wasn't that dumb.
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...We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. 1 Corinthians 8:1-3

If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 1 Timothy 6:3-5

At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:25-30

CARRY each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load.

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “WAKE UP, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” Ephesians 5:6-14

And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to WAKE UP from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. Romans 13:11

WAKE UP! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not WAKE UP, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelation 3:2-3

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.

God is good and His LOVE endures forever.
 
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DeighAnn said:
No, NO, No, I don't go there anymore, I don't suggest anyone else go there because ALL you are allowed to say is Salvation is a gift. If you talk about anything else it is taking away from "not by works" so all you do is get in trouble and fights, and then you feel like you are causing people to sin with the "unChristlike" dissention, strife, wrangling, I leave it at that for the love of God. So, count me out, it is far to restrictive.
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in all of it's 106,000 posts, does anyone say that we should "do no works" ?
does anyone in any of the posts argue that we should break God's commandments?
 
Matthew 12:46 While He yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with Him.

Matthew 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Matthew 12:48 But He answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

Matthew 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



Who becomes a brother, and sister, and mother of Jesus? Whosoever shall do the will of the Father.
What is the will of the Lord? That all should come to repentance


Do the will of God, come to repentance, do not do evil, worketh good
 
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posthuman said:
in all of it's 106,000 posts, does anyone say that we should "do no works" ?
does anyone in any of the posts argue that we should break God's commandments?
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Better question, I believe, is "Are the commands, themselves, being broken?" When reading those pages do you feel the WAY OF THE LORD is being represented? Do you say, this is some heavenly language and brotherly love going on here? Do you find a lot of kindness, longsuffering, meekness, well, do you find any of the FRUITS of the Spriit towards those who don't believe in OSASed? Does it make you stand up and say "These pages will bring the world to Christ"?

Does anyone say "do no works" may not say it, but does it come off as if you should do any, even without the direct words being said? I say yes, it does for me at least. Does anyone come out and say "Break the commandments"? No, not in those words either, but does it come off that way? I say yes, it does, for me at least.
I am not going to go back and look through the posts and tell you where those impressions came from. Everyone is free to read and interpret for themselves. I am just answering your questions here with the way I feel there. And I really hope this is good enough for you. So to be perfectly clear, these are my impressions and feelings and observations, and I am entitled to them as you are to yours.
 
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posthuman said:
have you read Romans yet?

read Romans, please. over and over. it has been called the Leviticus of the NT.
i really don't think you can understand Leviticus until you have understood Romans.

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed — a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”​
(Romans 1:17)​
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But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the law and the prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.​
(Romans 3:21-22) ​
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For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.​
(Romans 3:28)​
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What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. ​
(Romans 9:30-32) ​
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Each text you shared needs to be understood in the context to which it is shared.

What translation is 1:17 and 3:21,22.

They really messed up 1:17. It should read something like this.

for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; even as it has been written, "But the just shall live by faith." Hab. 2:4
(Rom 1:17 LITV)

From Faith to Faith. An Evangelizing Faith. A direct rendering from the Greek looks something Like this "out of Faith into Faith".

They really hatched up 3:21, 22 also. But then most do.
 
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oldethennew said:
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Christ 'plainly said, 'If you Love Me, KEEP My Commandments' - if one takes the 'position' that
ONE SCRIPTURE (NEGATES) the other, then, there is COMPLETE CONFUSION, and,
'God is NOT the Author of confusion' - but 'who is the author of confusion'???

Paul is hard to 'understand', but Christ's Words are the very (foundation).
Paul's words are 'always' in 'agreement with Christ's', and they MUST be interpreted as such,
or else, you have an incorrect interpretation...
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
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oldethennew said:
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Christ 'plainly said, 'If you Love Me, KEEP My Commandments' - if one takes the 'position' that
ONE SCRIPTURE (NEGATES) the other, then, there is COMPLETE CONFUSION, and,
'God is NOT the Author of confusion' - but 'who is the author of confusion'???

Paul is hard to 'understand', but Christ's Words are the very (foundation).
Paul's words are 'always' in 'agreement with Christ's', and they MUST be interpreted as such,
or else, you have an incorrect interpretation...
Click to expand...

It is this simple. Case closed. millions of words of "discussion" unnecessary.

Remember:

Mat 22:37-38 NIV Jesus replied:
"'Love the Lord your God with

all your heart

and with

all your soul

and with

all your mind.'

(38) This is the first and greatest commandment.


And technically speaking:

If you would be perfect!

With all your goods/possessions!
 
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