Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[DeighAnn]

that is my beef with the judeaizers- they push Sabbath, and it is not there.

Not one post where anyone has pushed keeping the Sabbath. Just you

 

[Marcelo]

I thought Jesus reiterated parts of the law in his sermon on the mountain. The mountain being significant in that when God gave Moses his commandments that was also on a mountain.

Interesting remark!

 

[Marcelo]

Be specific...what law are you referring?

The 613 ordinances given by God through Moses to the Hebrews.

 

[DeighAnn]

you are pushing the judeaizer lie that the Law is divided into parts, with the sacrifices and ceremonial laws being fulfilled and the commands are still binding in the New Covenant.

except, it's not. as I already pointed out to you, Leviticus 26 makes it crystal clear that there is one Covenant.

It is not crystal clear to me that there is one covenant,
Leviticus 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Leviticus 26:43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

Leviticus 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.

Leviticus 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
What is being proved right and wrong?

so you just proved me right and yourself wrong in the same post.
you are making this too easy.

 

[DeighAnn]

The 613 ordinances given by God through Moses to the Hebrews.

are the 613 man made or God given.

 

[PS]

I thought Jesus reiterated parts of the law in his sermon on the mountain. The mountain being significant in that when God gave Moses his commandments that was also on a mountain.

Jesus turned our attention away from religious acts and towards the sacrifice of our heart, like this:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Mat 5:22 KJV)

 

[PS]

are the 613 man made or God given.

The 613 commandments (mitzvot) were classified by Moses Maimonides in the 12th century.

They are often called the Mosaic or Levitical Law.

 

[gb9]

It is not crystal clear to me that there is one covenant,
Leviticus 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Leviticus 26:43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

Leviticus 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.

Leviticus 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
What is being proved right and wrong?

* yawn

the Covenants with Isaac and Jacob had to do primarily with the land that would become Israel.

so did the Abrahamic Covenant , except for the " through you all the families of the earth will be blessed ". that pertained to Christ, the Savior of the world, for any who BELIEVE in Him,

as for the Covenant that contained the Law, including the Sabbath, that was given to Moses for Israel, as the last verse you posted says.

so, unless I have to pack up and move to Israel, then the Covenants with Isaac and Jacob were not for me.

believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. that is for me. and you, though you choose Law keeping instead . your bad, not mine

 

[PS]

Here are some of the 613 Mitzvot Laws. They do not comply with either the Ten Commandments or the teaching of Jesus.

487 Save someone being pursued even by taking the life of the pursuer — Deut. 25:12

488 Not to pity the pursuer — Num. 35:12

545 The courts must carry out the death penalty of stoning — Deut. 22:24

546 The courts must carry out the death penalty of burning — Lev. 20:14

547 The courts must carry out the death penalty of the sword — Ex. 21:20

548 The courts must carry out the death penalty of strangulation — Lev. 20:10

549 The courts must hang those stoned for blasphemy or idolatry — Deut. 21:22

550 Bury the executed on the day they are killed — Deut. 21:23

555 The court must not kill anybody on circumstantial evidence — Ex. 23:7

 

[Karraster]

This is such a wise point. Thank you Karraster for making it. Besides loving birds in general, I recognize that before our "modern ers" there was a day when wild eggs were an important part of life. How you stated the significance of the consequences is beyond a simple glances ability to illuminate, or even a lifetime of meditation for that matter. The 400 to 500 extra laying pairs that might exist when your grandchildren go collecting eggs by obeying to spare the hens life is staggering! Or the heart attitude of being conservative or respectful to the hen etc. The most beautiful part is; if our Creator gave us the commandment we are safe to meditate on all the reasons to do as we are commanded and essentially build a storehouse of understanding and respect for His ways on top of the basic commandment. Then the wisdom we receive by Holy Spirit led meditation will foster broader applications of His wisdom to illuminate situations and circumstances that require sound judgement! Then the world becomes a blessing to behold when everything begins to reflect His order and our part in it.

Thank you Simplegardner for your kind words. I'm not surprised you love birds given your gentle and caring manner. They are amazing creatures, from their gloroius feathers which provide transportation, shelter and social benefits, to feet and legs that lock into position on a perch, and no two are exactly alike! Have you observed human traits in birds? Ever notice how generous blue jays are? If one finds food, he makes a big noise about it until all the other jays come around to help eat it. Then there are the stingy humming birds. How can anything so small and cute be so mean? They are tiny, yet will be to the point of kamikaze in order to keep another clan from feeding...they get so mad! I have to say tho, the ordinary crow is the most intriguing to me, for their ability to work/play together and observation/memory.

I also collect and use feathers for both writing and painting. Works great with home made walnut ink.

You are so right about the commandments. The wisdom and love encoded in each and every one, of such magnatude we've not even scratched the surface. How better can we get to know our Creator, than to study His Word, meditate on His actions? I love my husband dearly, am blessed to have him. We're so close we can finish the other's sentence sometimes... we think alike, sometimes we'll bring up a subject, only to find the other was about to mention it. How have we gotten so close over the years? We listen and ponder on each other's words and actions. There is no better way.

 

[DeighAnn]

Most of them were for the priests. There were some just for men, and some only for women, there were some only for the time they were needed, (like anim and some for the Nazirite vows and over 200 of them for the Temple which is not standing.
God didn't number them, man did.


If this is not correct please let me know.

* yawn

the Covenants with Isaac and Jacob had to do primarily with the land that would become Israel.

so did the Abrahamic Covenant , except for the " through you all the families of the earth will be blessed ". that pertained to Christ, the Savior of the world, for any who BELIEVE in Him,

as for the Covenant that contained the Law, including the Sabbath, that was given to Moses for Israel, as the last verse you posted says.

so, unless I have to pack up and move to Israel, then the Covenants with Isaac and Jacob were not for me.

believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. that is for me. and you, though you choose Law keeping instead . your bad, not mine

You think the law is dead and doesn't apply to you. I think the law of the kingdom of God is alive and always will be.

 

[SimpleGardner]

I'm not surprised you love birds

Greetings Karraster,

Your thoughts are a pleasant reminder of just how lovely our walk with our Creator is when we follow the lead of the Holy Spirit to "Get To Know Him"! There is nothing more rewarding that knowing and loving our Heavenly Father. Adam knew this "walk" with His Heavenly Father/Our Heavenly Father and when he lost it the whole meaning of life shifted to toil and hardship and misery. An observation of Scripture and time reveals our Heavenly Fathers progression to re-establish the opportunity to "walk/fellowship" with Him again through our choice to Know and keep His commandments but only by receiving that gift of Grace of a love in our heart for them through the indwelling of The Holy Spirit/that which Adam lost. And here in these forums we find the adversaries of fellowship with Our Creator, striking at the heart of this fellowship! Reminds me of Yahshua's words of "woe" to the Pharisees;

Mat 23:13 NIV "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

What kind of men lurk about seeking to disrupt/destroy a heart set afire by Gods very Holy Spirit to love Him and seek Him out through the only way He gave us to Know and Love Him? John 14:21 The Pharisees are the first to come in mind.

Matthew Henry made an good show of words concerning them:

This is here the burthen of the song, and it is a heavy burthen; Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites. Note, 1. The scribes and Pharisees were hypocrites; that is it in which all the rest of their bad characters are summed up; it was the leaven which gave the relish to all they said and did. A hypocrite is a stage-player in religion (that is the primary signification of the word); he personates or acts the part of one that he neither is nor may be, or perhaps the he neither is nor would be. 2. That hypocrites are in a woeful state and condition. Woe to hypocrites; so he said whose saying that their case is miserable makes it so: while they live, their religion is vain; when they die, their ruin is great.
I. They were sworn enemies to the gospel of Christ, and consequently to the salvation of the souls of men (Mat_23:13); They shut up the kingdom of heaven against men, that is, they did all they could to keep people from believing in Christ, and so entering into his kingdom.

Part of Jesus's gospel was to instruct us how to know and Love Him! in John 14:21, yet the modern day Pharisee are enemies of this to the point of outright attacking anyone who declares that gift of Love for His words and commands. Amazing! How the spirit of the Pharisees lives today to fulfill the part of the parable of the sower;

Mat 13:18-19 NIV "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: (19) When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

Part of the message of the Kingdom that your life demonstrates through your love for His Creation and Laws which then permeates your relationships is that His Holy Spirit will be ours through Grace after we receive Justification through Jesus's sacrifice! Yet they shut they try to shut the kingdom in mens faces and do not enter in themselves! Woe! is right! Mystery of iniquity is right! 1 Thess 2:7-8,

But I thank God for your heart in that His Holy Spirit has prevailed in turning you back to what was lost so many millennia ago; "a heart after God"

Bless YHWH! Know and Keep

SG

 

[posthuman]

(Heb 10:38 NET) But my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back, I take no pleasure in him.

Shrinks back (draws back) is in the third person singular. Which dictates that the "he" mentioned in relation to the shrinking back is the "the righteous one" (just) mentioned in the previous clause.
Incidentally how does one shrink back from being something unless they are the something to begin with.

do not, then, shrink back from faith - from the sure hope we have in the Anchor of our souls, the Author & Finisher of our faith - because His righteous ones will live by faith.

Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.
But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
(Matthew 13:5-6)
​

the problem here wasn't the foliage. this plant had it - but the problem was shallow roots, and when the sun came up, they were scorched, and whatever leaves it had produced, shrank back. any fruit it had begun to produce, died.

The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
(Matthew 13:20-21)
​

what is the falling away here?
falling away from works, or from faith?

seeing that we were never saved by works - what is the primary thing?

 

[posthuman]

I'm not surprised you love birds

 

[Guojing]

Interesting remark!

I felt the 3 years Paul spent in Arabia was more interesting.

Mount Sinai is also located in Arabia, it would be nice if he received the revelations of the Gospel of Grace from the ascended Christ at Mount Sinai too.

 

[PS]

Most of them were for the priests. There were some just for men, and some only for women, there were some only for the time they were needed, (like anim and some for the Nazirite vows and over 200 of them for the Temple which is not standing.
God didn't number them, man did.


If this is not correct please let me know.
You think the law is dead and doesn't apply to you. I think the law of the kingdom of God is alive and always will be.

Hopefully you mean these commandments.

1. Repent—Matthew 4:17, Luke 13:3
2. Let not your heart be troubled—John 14:27, John 16:33, Matthew 6:25-26, Philippians 4:6-7
3. Follow me—Matthew 4:19
4. Rejoice—Matthew 5:12, (Also 2 Corinthians 6:10, 12:10, James 1:2-4)
5. Let your light shine—Matthew 5:16
6. Honor God’s law—Matthew 5:17-19
7. Be reconciled—Matthew 5:24-25
8. Do not commit adultery—Matthew 5:27-30
9. Keep your word—Matthew 5:33-37
10. Go the second mile—Matthew 5:38-42
11. Love your enemies—Matthew 5:44
12. Be perfect—Matthew 5:48
13. Practice secret disciplines (giving, praying, fasting)—Matthew 6:1-18
14. Lay up treasures in heaven—Matthew 6:19-21
15. Seek first the kingdom of God—Matthew 6:33
16. Judge not—Matthew 7:1-2
17. Do not throw your pearls to pigs—Matthew 7:6
18. Ask, seek, and knock—Matthew 7:7-8
19. Do unto others—Matthew 7:12
20. Choose the narrow way—Matthew 7:13-14
21. Beware of false prophets—Matthew 7:15
22. Pray for those who spread the word—Matthew 9:37-38
23. Be as shrewd as serpents—Matthew 10:16. (Also Romans 16:19)
24. Fear God. Do not fear man— Matthew 10:28 (Also Luke 12:4-5)
25. Listen to God’s voice—Matthew 11:15, 13:9, 13:43, Mark 4:23, Luke 14:35, 1 Kings 19:11-13
26.Take my yoke—Matthew 11:29
27. Honor your parents—Matthew 15:4
28. Beware of false teaching—Matthew 16:6, 11-12
29. Deny yourself—Luke 9:23 (Also Matthew 10:38 and Mark 8:34)
30. Do not despise little ones—Matthew 18:10
31. Go to Christians who offend you—Matthew 8:15 (Also Galatians 6:1)
32. Forgive offenders—Matthew 18:21-22 (Also Proverbs 19:11)
33. Beware of covetousness—Luke 12:15
34. Honor marriage—Matthew 19:6, 19:9
35. Lead by being a servant—Matthew 20:26-28
36. Make the church a house of prayer for all nations—Mark 11:17
37. Pray in faith—Matthew 21:21-22, John 15:7
38. Bring in the poor—Luke 14:12-14
39. Render unto Caesar—Matthew 22:19-21
40. Love the Lord—Matthew 22:37-38
41. Love your neighbor—Matthew 22:39
42. Be born again—John 3:7
43. Await my return—Matthew 24:42-44
44. Celebrate the Lord’s supper—Matthew 26:26-
45. Watch and pray—Matthew 26:41
46. Keep my commandments—John 14:15
47. Feed my sheep—John 21:15-16
48. Make and baptize disciples—Matthew 28:19
49. Teach disciples to obey—Matthew 28:20
50. Receive God’s power—Luke 24:49

 

[SimpleGardner]

I also collect and use feathers for both writing and painting. Works great with home made walnut ink.

I collect up my Black Walnuts every year! Num! I bet the ink would look great! I'm a purist of sorts too. I have found so many pure and simple answers in the garden/off the land! I heard a guy that wasn't religious as far as I know, but he had a passion for simple living and he made a profound statement; "so many solutions to life's woes today are found in a return to the garden/land!" If I hadn't known that for myself I would have just dismissed him as another crazy! I have a love for our senior population. I never pass up a opportunity to ask our 80-and up seniors what life was like growing up. I mean I have literally asked hundreds of them. I was visiting my dad 91 in Florida and he met weekly with a group at Cracker Barrel. Well they were all in their 90's! They knew I was a Homesteader and so I started to probe their lives as children and 90% of them grew up poor and on homestead. I watched each one disappear into their memories and without exception, while probing the lives of "poverty" they grew up under was a profound sense that they had, in those lives of poverty something more precious and remarkable that they have experienced since. Most of them wished they could go back to that! Sure some of it was childhood, but to hear their account of no money, or electricity, or a car etc but yet the family singing hymns and time, yes TIME together! God was feared in their lives and it was what kept them safe and secure! When we were all done with breakfast you could see it in their eyes and they even commented they had not thought of many of the things we discussed for many many years. I know our current lifestyles are robbing us of many of the treasure our forefathers enjoyed. Yet we have been made to see a life without ease, comfort and things as "poverty", and somehow Yahshua invited those who were clinging to these things to give them up! So when I heard you speak of black walnut ink and feathers for brushes I thought of "the garden" the place of simplicity we were placed in when Our Heavenly Father made us and how, deep down we desire to return.

SG

 

[PS]

Most of them were for the priests. There were some just for men, and some only for women, there were some only for the time they were needed, (like anim and some for the Nazirite vows and over 200 of them for the Temple which is not standing.
God didn't number them, man did.


If this is not correct please let me know.
You think the law is dead and doesn't apply to you. I think the law of the kingdom of God is alive and always will be.

Most of them were for the priests.
there were some only for the time they were needed, (like anim
some for the Nazirite vows
over 200 of them for the Temple which is not standing.
All irrelevant

There were some just for men, and some only for women.
Probably none of which are relevant outside Israel.

 

[lightbearer]

do not, then, shrink back from faith - from the sure hope we have in the Anchor of our souls, the Author & Finisher of our faith - because His righteous ones will live by faith.

Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.​

But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.​

(Matthew 13:5-6)​

​

the problem here wasn't the foliage. this plant had it - but the problem was shallow roots, and when the sun came up, they were scorched, and whatever leaves it had produced, shrank back. any fruit it had begun to produce, died.

The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.​

(Matthew 13:20-21) ​

​

That truth stands in and of it's self.
Different teaching, different context which by no means takes away from what is shared in the following.


(Heb 10:38 NET) But my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back, I take no pleasure in him.

Shrinks back (draws back) is in the third person singular. Which dictates that the "he" mentioned in relation to the shrinking back is the "the righteous one" (just) mentioned in the previous clause.
The righteous one is experiencing the Gospel through faith. Incidentally how does one shrink back from being something unless they are the something to begin with.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Never said any different. I like this translation
For if we are willfully sinning after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice concerning sins,
(Heb 10:26 LITV)

Not necessarily. Context and the verb being used dictates this continuous action in which you speak. Grammatically speaking V-PAP-GPM simply means something that is in a state of happening. The action can cease and never continue again. Acts 1:9 for example.

And saying these things, as they looked on, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him from their sight.
(Act 1:9 LITV)

And Mat 17:9
And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.
(Mat 17:9 LITV)

Here is an example that contrasts both schools of thought within the same context.
But concerning the dead, that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, as God spoke to him at the Bush, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead, but God of the living. Therefore, you greatly err. And coming up, one of the scribes, hearing them arguing, knowing that He answered them well, he questioned Him, What is the first commandment of all?
(Mar 12:27-28 LITV)

The looking in Acts, the coming down in Matt, and arguing in Mark all ceased but the living in which Christ spoke is ongoing.


In verse 26 the writer includes himself in the start of this admonition by his use through the Holy Spirit of the pronoun "we". A better translation however might be "of us" since it is the genitive case. So Regardless what you or I think the writer definitely thought he and those to whom he was writing to in Hebrews could lose their salvation if they was willfully sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth.

For if WE sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The text says in verse 29 in the KJV "he was sanctified". Sanctified is in the aorist tense 3 person singular. Which means "he was sanctified" is correct.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite (insult) unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(Heb 10:26-31 KJV)


So we see that he (the willful sinner) was sanctified (made holy); purged. And they have done despite unto the Spirit of Grace . And once again it would fail us if we we did not note that the writer in verse 26 includes himself in the start of this admonition by his use of the pronoun "we".

Let's take a look at how the writer of Hebrews was using
G37 ἁγιάζω hagiazo (ha-ǰiy-a'-zō) v.
1. to make holy, to set apart unto God and apart (alienate) from the world.
2. (ceremonially) to cleanse.
3. (mentally) to reverence.
[from G40]
KJV: hallow, be holy, sanctify

So with that basic understanding from Mickelson's Strong enhanced we see that for something to be set apart it has to be made holy.
Prior to the writer's usage of hagiszo in verse 10:27 he sets the context to which he is speaking of in 9:13,14. Let's take a look.

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

The blood of bulls and goats Sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh. Made holy on the outside: the flesh. Let's continue.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience (who we are; the inner man) from dead works (sin; acts that cause death) to serve the living God?



Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



Not according to 10:38
(Heb 10:38 NET) But my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back, I take no pleasure in him.

Shrinks back (draws back) is in the third person singular. Which dictates that the "he" mentioned in relation to the shrinking back is the "the righteous one" (just) mentioned in the previous clause.
Incidentally how does one shrink back from being something unless they are the something to begin with.

Greetings lightbearer,

I appreciate your question; "how does one shrink back from being something unless they are the something to begin with."

So many people forget their "first works";

Rev 2:5 KJV Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


If anyone here claiming to have been called to Christ for the remission of sins can say their first work toward forgiveness/righteousness was not a deep conviction of violating God's Laws/commandments AND REPENTING, then they need to go back to the beginning!

This trajectory of being convicted for violating God's laws and then REPENTING is our "first works" and this is what we must continue to do! "Know and Keep" John 14:21! This desire. that all of us were given a measure of at the beginning is a GIFT! We must walk in this gift! So many love sin, but to love righteousness is the GIFT of God! We must not shrink back from this and yet so many misapply the word Grace to mean just that! "Shrink back" from the "repentance/obedience" you were first called to! Talk about the seeds snatched up by the evil one! Notice those seeds were snatched up by those; "heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not," Matt 13:19 there is a strong correlation here to;

2Pe 3:16-17 NIV He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (17) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Be Well!

SG