Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[homwardbound]

I agree. Your correct.
Zadok

therefore, how does one, anyone know if they are in or not?
God says to beleive God, then one will see and be freed. Are we freed in religion? I never was at least me until I learned God just loves me too as God continues to love us all in error or not, I see Romans 2:1-4, every time I think to get or be judgmental I get reminded of this grace given to not only me, yet all people to decide each person personally, between god and themselves each. Wow, talk about humbling me again, needing this daily
thanks

 

[Genez]

You're missing the point. Jesus didn't die for evil. He died to pay for sins.

At any rate, grace and peace.

That is why Jesus on the Cross could not automatically save those who would reject Him.
For He only paid for sins. Not for evil.

If Jesus could have died for evil, even Satan could be automatically saved.

Evil requires a revamping and correcting of one's evil thinking to make it conform to God's accepted way of thinking.
That process of correcting one's own evil thinking is what is called "repentance."

Evil is corrected by accepting correction and adapting that corrected thinking into your own way of life = repentance.
Sin is dealt with by simply acknowledging to oneself (confessing) that sin and admitting you have sinned.(1 John 1:9)

grace and peace .........

 

[Cameron143]

That is why Jesus on the Cross could not automatically save those who would reject Him.
For He only paid for sins. Not for evil.

If Jesus could have died for evil, even Satan could be automatically saved.

Evil requires a revamping and correcting of one's evil thinking to make it conform to God's accepted way of thinking.
That process of correcting one's own evil thinking is what is called "repentance."

Evil is corrected by accepting correction and adapting that corrected thinking into your own way of life = repentance.
Sin is dealt with by simply acknowledging to oneself (confessing) that sin and admitting you have sinned.(1 John 1:9)

grace and peace .........

Evil resides in the heart. The heart is the purview of God. Man can change his mind; he cannot change his heart.

In salvation, God works in the mind...when they heard this, in the heart...pricked in the heart, and upon the will...what shall we do?...Acts 2:37. Every facet of man is dealt with in salvation.

 

[Genez]

Evil resides in the heart. The heart is the purview of God. Man can change his mind; he cannot change his heart.

In salvation, God works in the mind...when they heard this, in the heart...pricked in the heart, and upon the will...what shall we do?...Acts 2:37. Every facet of man is dealt with in salvation.

The heart is the mind. Why can man not change his heart?

​

“As a man thinks in his heart, so is he” Prov 23:7​

​

Where did Satan think his evil towards God?
In his heart.

​

You said in your heart,​

“I will ascend to the heavens;​

I will raise my throne​

above the stars of God;​

I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,​

on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.​

I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;​

I will make myself like the Most High.” ​

Repentance is implementing a change in one's own thinking. Having a change of heart.

I don't know why you keep finding these things like you do.
Probably, you never gave them a thought.

 

[Cameron143]

The heart is the mind. Why can man not change his heart?

​

“As a man thinks in his heart, so is he” Prov 23:7​

​

Where did Satan think his evil towards God?
In his heart.

​

You said in your heart,​

“I will ascend to the heavens;​

I will raise my throne​

above the stars of God;​

I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,​

on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.​

I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;​

I will make myself like the Most High.” ​

Repentance is implementing a change in one's own thinking. Having a change of heart.

I don't know why you keep finding these things like you do.
Probably, you never gave them a thought.

The heart is more than just the mind, and vice versa. While intricately related, they are separate entities. I just showed you God making a distinction between them. Here's another:
Romans 6:17...obeyed...the will, from the heart...the heart, that form of doctrine...the mind...

Repentance is an act of the will, based on information...the mind, and the prevailing condition of the heart...the heart.

 

[Genez]

The heart is more than just the mind, and vice versa. While intricately related, they are separate entities. I just showed you God making a distinction between them. Here's another:
Romans 6:17...obeyed...the will, from the heart...the heart, that form of doctrine...the mind...

Repentance is an act of the will, based on information...the mind, and the prevailing condition of the heart...the heart.

Interesting to learn. It was for me.
The Bible defines the brain as being two lobes.
In the Greek, it's "nous" and kardia."

The nous (mind) is the left side of the brain, where we take in and learn and store information.

The kardia (heart) is where we make our conclusions concerning what the nous had received and stored.

The heart is not about emotional feelings that too many fundamentalists keep missing the Biblical meaning.
The heart is about what our convictions are.

grace and peace ..............

 

[Rufus]

Unbelief in regards to God is evil. Not sin.
The sin nature drives the power that gives evil its sense of conviction.

There is a fine line here.

You can lust in your heart for the Flying Nun.
But, if you were too broke to do anything about it?
Evil could give the money to take her out on a date.

You truly are the king of heresies. Unbelief is not sin!? Are you for real!?

John 16:7-9
7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
NIV

And,

John 15:22
22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.
NIV

And,

Heb 3:12
12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
NIV

(See also Mk 16:16; Jn 3:18, etc.

And don't you know that without faith it's impossible to please God (Heb 11:6)? How can a righteous, holy God look upon a thing in displeasure and not consider it to be sinful? Is there anything else in your universe that is unpleasing to God, yet not sinful to him?

And how can anything be given to something (evil) that is not a thing? Evil in and of itself does not exist. Evil is like a shadow; for shadows cannot exist apart from light. Therefore, evil is the absence of good, just as shadows are the absence of light.

 

[Rufus]

Interesting to learn. It was for me.
The Bible defines the brain as being two lobes.
In the Greek, it's "nous" and kardia."

The nous (mind) is the left side of the brain, where we take in and learn and store information.

The kardia (heart) is where we make our conclusions concerning what the nous had received and stored.

The heart is not about emotional feelings that too many fundamentalists keep missing the Biblical meaning.
The heart is about what our convictions are.

grace and peace ..............

Do or do you not believe that the heart is the seat of all four of man's faculties: mind, will, emotions and conscience?

 

[PaulThomson]

Well....one thing is for certain: Whoever doesn't believe in Jesus not only stands condemned already but when that person dies he will be judged for the all the sins he committed in this life. John 8, therefore, clearly refutes universal atonement, since God would never unjustly require double payment for the sins of unbelievers. It is ludicrous to believe simultaneously that Jesus actually bore the sins of the entire unbelieving world in his body and, therefore, paid for their sins and to also believe that when those unbelievers die they will also pay the price for their own sins.

Jesus purchased us all with His blood. He owns us all. He can do with us as He sees fit. He does not need to behave according to your ideas of justice. His ways are higher than your ways. What makes you qualified to critique our Lord's action and to direct Him?

 

[Cameron143]

Interesting to learn. It was for me.
The Bible defines the brain as being two lobes.
In the Greek, it's "nous" and kardia."

The nous (mind) is the left side of the brain, where we take in and learn and store information.

The kardia (heart) is where we make our conclusions concerning what the nous had received and stored.

The heart is not about emotional feelings that too many fundamentalists keep missing the Biblical meaning.
The heart is about what our convictions are.

grace and peace ..............

You are very good at assigning to others thoughts and words they neither thought, nor wrote. I never said or suggested that the heart was simply a store of emotions. But to deny that it is the seat of our emotions is equally false. What I did do was show you the relationship of the will, mind, and heart from 2 different places in scripture, and their place in both salvation and obedience.

 

[Rufus]

Jesus purchased us all with His blood. He owns us all. He can do with us as He sees fit. He does not need to behave according to your ideas of justice. His ways are higher than your ways. What makes you qualified to critique our Lord's action and to direct Him?

So...in your world God is just in punishing sins twice over: Once upon the Last Adam and once upon all those who never made it out of the First Adam? Even the ungodly world knows that double jeopardy is unjust. But you...not so much, heh?

 

[Sipsey]

If Jesus paid the price for all sin, with one exception, then sin doesn’t seem like the basis for eternal damnation. Yet Scripture says that all will not be saved. So there must be more to it. That is the 64 dollar question that divides so many religions. Either we are all saved, or there another issue at stake besides sin. Seems rather simple to me, however, it took me about 40 years to come to this simplistic conclusion.

 

[Rufus]

If Jesus paid the price for all sin, with one exception, then sin doesn’t seem like the basis for eternal damnation. Yet Scripture says that all will not be saved. So there must be more to it. That is the 64 dollar question that divides so many religions. Either we are all saved, or there another issue at stake besides sin. Seems rather simple to me, however, it took me about 40 years to come to this simplistic conclusion.

Why can't there be a third option: Why can't the issue at stake still be sin, while Christ also laid down his life for many (not to be confused for "all")?

 

[Genez]

You truly are the king of heresies. Unbelief is not sin!? Are you for real!?

John 16:7-9
7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
NIV

And,

John 15:22
22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.
NIV

And,

Heb 3:12
12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
NIV

(See also Mk 16:16; Jn 3:18, etc.

And don't you know that without faith it's impossible to please God (Heb 11:6)? How can a righteous, holy God look upon a thing in displeasure and not consider it to be sinful? Is there anything else in your universe that is unpleasing to God, yet not sinful to him?

And how can anything be given to something (evil) that is not a thing? Evil in and of itself does not exist. Evil is like a shadow; for shadows cannot exist apart from light. Therefore, evil is the absence of good, just as shadows are the absence of light.

Their sin was stubbornness... Stubbornness after hearing the truth and the evil one snatching it away..

Unbelief in regards to salvation begins with listening to the voice of the devil.
The devil implants the Evil thinking.

“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: ​

​

When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, ​

the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. ​

This is the seed sown along the path." Matthew 13:18-19​

​

Evil had to do the initial work in unbelief!
Not the sin nature.

Sin will jump in to set up camp if one wishes to stubbornly continue to refuse the truth that would correct them.
Rebelliousness and STUBBORNNESS are the sins that lock in the unbelief that the devil planted in their hearts!

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. ​

Because you have rejected the word of the Lord.” 1 Samuel 15:23​

Those sins (rebellion and stubbornness) are what causes the person's unbelief from the Devil to remain intact!

In regards to salvation.. Sin guards and protects what evil first initiated!

With fallen man.... under normal living, the sin nature guards and protects a sin that the sin nature initiated to that person.
Then the sinner will invent ways to justify their wrong stand. Those invented ways are man's own evil invention.
But, with salvation truth? The devil comes and snatches away what was sown in the heart!

It does not say that sin snatches away the gospel.
It says, evil snatched it away!

When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, ​

the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. ​

​

It becomes a reenactment of the time when Satan kept his angels filled with lies as to keep them from the Lord!

It takes a while... And, like you pointed out? Demands clarification.


grace and peace ..............

 

[Genez]

You are very good at assigning to others thoughts and words they neither thought, nor wrote. I never said or suggested that the heart was simply a store of emotions. But to deny that it is the seat of our emotions is equally false. What I did do was show you the relationship of the will, mind, and heart from 2 different places in scripture, and their place in both salvation and obedience.

Our emotions are based upon what we believe in our heart.
But, the heart goes far beyond what many fundamentalists live by..

Such as....

"He only had a head belief, not a heart belief" ​

(yet, the heart is our head (brain) working)

For as he thinks in his heart, so is he: Proverbs 23:7a​

Its they who see the heart as meaning the emotions, who can not understand someone having belief without a need for a display of emotion...

You never met one?

 

[Rufus]

Their sin was stubbornness... Stubbornness after hearing the truth and the evil one snatching it away..

Unbelief in regards to salvation begins with listening to the voice of the devil.
The devil implants the Evil thinking.

“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: ​

​

When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, ​

the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. ​

This is the seed sown along the path." Matthew 13:18-19​

​

Evil had to do the initial work in unbelief!
Not the sin nature.

Sin will jump in to set up camp if one wishes to stubbornly continue to refuse the truth that would correct them.
Rebelliousness and STUBBORNNESS are the sins that lock in the unbelief that the devil planted in their hearts!

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. ​

Because you have rejected the word of the Lord.” 1 Samuel 15:23​

Those sins (rebellion and stubbornness) are what causes the person's unbelief from the Devil to remain intact!

In regards to salvation.. Sin guards and protects what evil first initiated!

With fallen man.... under normal living, the sin nature guards and protects a sin that the sin nature initiated to that person.
Then the sinner will invent ways to justify their wrong stand. Those invented ways are man's own evil invention.
But, with salvation truth? The devil comes and snatches away what was sown in the heart!

It does not say that sin snatches away the gospel.
It says, evil snatched it away!

When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, ​

the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. ​

​

It becomes a reenactment of the time when Satan kept his angels filled with lies as to keep them from the Lord!

It takes a while... And, like you pointed out? Demands clarification.


grace and peace ..............

You're alluding to the parable of the Four Soils (Luke 8), which represents four types of human hearts. And the devil was active in only one of those soils! But the with the two bad soils, those hearts needed no help from the devil. They managed well on their own, responding to Gospel according to their evil nature.

Bottom line: Unbelief is sin. It was sin in the Garden because distrust in the Lord manifested itself in physical disobedience. And it's still sin to this day. And as Jesus told the Pharisees the sin unbelief results in people dying in their sins -- sins that supposedly Christ bore on their behalf on the Cross.

 

[Rufus]

Our emotions are based upon what we believe in our heart.
But, the heart goes far beyond what many fundamentalists live by..

Such as....

"He only had a head belief, not a heart belief" ​

(yet, the heart is our head (brain) working)

For as he thinks in his heart, so is he: Proverbs 23:7a​

Its they who see the heart as meaning the emotions, who can not understand someone having belief without a need for a display of emotion...

You never met one?

Do you believe that all four of man's faculties (intellect, affections, conscience and volition) reside in man's heart?

 

[Sipsey]

Why can't there be a third option: Why can't the issue at stake still be sin, while Christ also laid down his life for many (not to be confused for "all")?

There is an infinite number of options if one runs with it. These seem to me the clearest two. It ain't complicated, we just tend to make it so.

 

[Genez]

You're alluding to the parable of the Four Soils (Luke 8), which represents four types of human hearts. And the devil was active in only one of those soils! But the with the two bad soils, those hearts needed no help from the devil. They managed well on their own, responding to Gospel according to their evil nature.

Bottom line: Unbelief is sin. It was sin in the Garden because distrust in the Lord manifested itself in physical disobedience. And it's still sin to this day. And as Jesus told the Pharisees the sin unbelief results in people dying in their sins -- sins that supposedly Christ bore on their behalf on the Cross.

Only one of the four did not believe to be saved.
One went all the way with God's will and glorified the Lord in their lifetime.

The other two? They became saved, but losers in glorifying Christ.

Three saved.
One = unbelief.

 

[Genez]

You're alluding to the parable of the Four Soils (Luke 8), which represents four types of human hearts. And the devil was active in only one of those soils! But the with the two bad soils, those hearts needed no help from the devil. They managed well on their own, responding to Gospel according to their evil nature.

Bottom line: Unbelief is sin. It was sin in the Garden because distrust in the Lord manifested itself in physical disobedience. And it's still sin to this day. And as Jesus told the Pharisees the sin unbelief results in people dying in their sins -- sins that supposedly Christ bore on their behalf on the Cross.

When God is drawing a person God must provide HIS GRACE needed, that will totally suppress the sin nature.
Suppress the sin nature, so a person can stand a chance to believe.
For if God's grace did not do that? No one would believe.

When in that state of grace granted by God's power? For those enabling moments God gives?
Man can freely choose either for Christ, or against Christ.. being freed from his flesh.

Without suppressing the flesh? That soul would always default to rejecting God.

In effect? When someone is given that grace he becomes like Adam was before he fell.
For, Adam having been created without a sin nature, did not fall because he had a sin nature.

In the Garden, without an external independent presence of Evil? (the devil)
Sinless Adam would have had no propensity to sin.
If Satan left them alone?
Adam would have had no sin nature to entice himself to eat.
It was a lie that gave Adam a way to sin.

Satan was created perfect. Was perfect until EVIL (not sin) was found in him. Ezekiel 28:15
God's grace arranges for us to be placed in a position like Satan had, to freely make our choice
by the power of Grace suppressing our sin nature. The sin nature was being suppressed while considering the Gospel.


Unless that is grasped and understood?
One will not be able to understand that those who reject the Lord are not simply sinful (we all are sinful).
But the rejection makes the person evil.

Jesus paid the penalty for all sin. Not just most sins.

Jesus could not die for evil. Its evil that lands someone in the Lake of Fire.

We are all sinners. But, not all sinners are evil.