Denominations are Inevitable

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doctrinal differences and nothing else?
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And ecclesiology, as opposed to specific administration. If you're an episcopal church and I'm a Baptist church I cannot submit to your bishops, so we're different denominations. Things called 'denominations' are often just the same thing when different particulars. The example I always give is that my church, a separatist, Anglo Presbyterian Church (OPC), has open communion and shared seminarians with the Reform Church in the United States, which is a mainline continental church. We're not even from the same historical branches until you get back to the Reformation, but they both believe so much the same thing that nobody really cares. I would extend that to some Reformed Baptists, too, though I understand why Presbyterians usually don't.
 
The "Church" in scripture is the "Ecclesia"or the body of believers, not a man made organization.
We have changed from the original body of the believers who met in each others homes, called Holy Spirit to come and minister. :)(y)
 
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shittim said:
The "Church" in scripture is the "Ecclesia"or the body of believers, not a man made organization.
We have changed from the original body of the believers who met in each others homes, called Holy Spirit to come and minister. :)(y)
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have changed, and not for the better...
 
shittim said:
The "Church" in scripture is the "Ecclesia"or the body of believers, not a man made organization.
We have changed from the original body of the believers who met in each others homes, called Holy Spirit to come and minister. :)(y)
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Yeah, this is nonsense. God appointed specific administrative and authority structures and assigned men to implement it. This whole naive Biblicism and low church mentality is just not Biblical, historical, or practical.
 
Seeing how the Pharisees had separate groups within the one group as did the Sadducees under the Mosaic Law. It seems rather conclusive that Protestants would do the same. After all, Jesus said He came to bring division. But that division doesn't mean some Protestants believe in Jesus and others don't. It means about interpretation of what Jesus said.
 
lrs68 said:
Seeing how the Pharisees had separate groups within the one group as did the Sadducee's under the Mosaic Law. It seems rather conclusive that Protestants would do the same. After all, Jesus said He came to bring division. But that division doesn't mean some Protestants believe in Jesus and others don't. It means about interpretation of what Jesus said.
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Conclusive perhaps, but not His plan. The religious scribes and pharisees were the ones who sought to kill their Savior. His Own are in relationship walking in Holy Spirit guidance and doing greater works than His, most hold on to an outward form denying the power.
 
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ParticularWife said:
Yeah, this is nonsense. God appointed specific administrative and authority structures and assigned men to implement it. This whole naive Biblicism and low church mentality is just not Biblical, historical, or practical.
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I tend to agree with this, but could you clarify what you see as Biblically sound administrative structure of the church?
 
lrs68 said:
After all, Jesus said He came to bring division.
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Except Jesus was not talking about his bringing division within the body of believers. He was talking about how following him would divide believers and non-believers.... his division was between the world, and his followers....
 
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hornetguy said:
I tend to agree with this, but could you clarify what you see as Biblically sound administrative structure of the church?
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I'm a congregationalist Baptist, I believe in elders and deacons. I believe in the duty of pastors to discipline church members. I think churches should coordinate on discipline and doctrine, though I reject the episcopacy. And no women in church governance. Women can assist in ministries but should not hold authority or positions of teaching the faith.
 
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Wouldn't you rather be a Christian? He requires first place after all.
Too often a denomination takes precedence over the Lord and Savior in a persons view and should be avoided.
Jesus told us most would have an outward form of godliness denying the power, whereas His Own would do greater works than He Himself, if we are not seeing these we need to seek His guidance to grow in these areas, He is coming back for a church without spot or blemish.
The 5 fold ministry is intended for His body of believers, not a man made organization where people meet once a week to only here someone talk "about" Him and not teach people to talk with Him in relationship.
blessings
 
ParticularWife said:
I'm a congregationalist Baptist, I believe in elders and deacons. I believe in the duty of pastors to discipline church members. I think churches should coordinate on discipline and doctrine, though I reject the episcopacy. And no women in church governance. Women can assist in ministries but should not hold authority or positions of teaching the faith.
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thanks for that..... I agree with most of that....
I'm not sure that pastors (depending on your definition of that term) have a Biblical duty to discipline... I think that is left to the elders (bishop, overseers, pastors, shepherds)....
It seems that most Baptist churches call the preacher "pastor".... I have seen quite a few very good preachers that do not have the Biblical qualities listed for "elder", and simply are not qualified to discipline other believers.... they lack the spiritual maturity or the proper mindset of "servant leadership" that is required of an elder.
But for the most part, you and I are in agreement on this....
 
shittim said:
Wouldn't you rather be a Christian? He requires first place after all.
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I agree..... but a large part of being a Christian, or follower of Christ, is to be an active part of the body of believers... the church.
I strongly believe that being a member of a Bible-teaching/believing church is a necessity for the spiritual health of both the individual and the church.
That being said, there are no perfect "churches".... because they are made up of flawed, human believers. It is each believer's duty to find a "church" that fits them, with the understanding that there will be NO church that they will agree with 100%.... it's the nature of humanity.
 
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hornetguy said:
I'm not sure that pastors (depending on your definition of that term) have a Biblical duty to discipline... I think that is left to the elders (bishop, overseers, pastors, shepherds)....
It seems that most Baptist churches call the preacher "pastor".... I have seen quite a few very good preachers that do not have the Biblical qualities listed for "elder", and simply are not qualified to discipline other believers....
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Coming from am OPC church (which is, granted, Presbyterian), all of our pastors are ordained seminarians, so we never have the issue of 'random charismatic guy took over a church' as much. Though I'm personally a congregationalist, I'm a pretty high church Baptist, and believe that the church should have both a high degree of authority and a lot of discrimination on who gets to preach or be an elder.
That's not to say that Random Charismatic Guy can't preach as part of a ministry, but he's not supposed to be in church government unless he is suitable as an elder. And all ministries should be directly under local church authority, so that Random Charismatic Guy doesn't start a megachurch and embezzle money.
 
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hornetguy said:
I agree..... but a large part of being a Christian, or follower of Christ, is to be an active part of the body of believers... the church.
I strongly believe that being a member of a Bible-teaching/believing church is a necessity for the spiritual health of both the individual and the church.
That being said, there are no perfect "churches".... because they are made up of flawed, human believers. It is each believer's duty to find a "church" that fits them, with the understanding that there will be NO church that they will agree with 100%.... it's the nature of humanity.
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The "church" being the body of believers, we can have be active in His church by seeking His guidance by Holy Spirit and go where He guides to do His will, in an un-churched area or an area that is a Holy Spirit wasteland someone needs to go first. That is how He grew His church and how He appears to be reclaiming His church that often has become stale and lukewarm to become the on fire church He desires where His commands to heal, cleanse, raise, etc. are regular and common.
blessings
 
ParticularWife said:
Coming from am OPC church (which is, granted, Presbyterian), all of our pastors are ordained seminarians, so we never have the issue of 'random charismatic guy took over a church' as much. Though I'm personally a congregationalist, I'm a pretty high church Baptist, and believe that the church should have both a high degree of authority and a lot of discrimination on who gets to preach or be an elder.
That's not to say that Random Charismatic Guy can't preach as part of a ministry, but he's not supposed to be in church government unless he is suitable as an elder. And all ministries should be directly under local church authority, so that Random Charismatic Guy doesn't start a megachurch and embezzle money.
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Scripture says an Elder should be able to get a person healed, do the Elders of your church walk in His anointing to do this? I hope so, that is a part of the church order scripture spells out clearly.
best wishes
 
shittim said:
Scripture says an Elder should be able to get a person healed,
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The only scripture I remember about that is where believers are told that if they are sick, they should call the elders of the church to pray over them, and anoint them with oil.... I don't think there is any mention of any "miraculous" healing, as some of the Pentecostal groups claim..
shittim said:
The "church" being the body of believers, we can have be active in His church by seeking His guidance by Holy Spirit and go where He guides to do His will, in an un-churched area or an area that is a Holy Spirit wasteland someone needs to go first.
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I agree with this, but I'm afraid too many people use this as an excuse to forego attendance in a corporate church setting.... if the Spirit has "moved" you to an area with minimal church availability, I would see that as a strong nudge for YOU to be the one that actively seeks other believers, to form a body of believers that regularly meets together for each believer's edification and spiritual growth.
Believers are not intended to live in a vacuum.... they are supposed to be (scripturally) a part of a body. Too many scriptures show us that, how each member has a role to play, and without that role being fulfilled, the body is not "whole".... and, the part of the body that is removed from the body will wither and die... active participation is essential...
 
hornetguy said:
I agree with this, but I'm afraid too many people use this as an excuse to forego attendance in a corporate church setting.... if the Spirit has "moved" you to an area with minimal church availability, I would see that as a strong nudge for YOU to be the one that actively seeks other believers, to form a body of believers that regularly meets together for each believer's edification and spiritual growth.
Believers are not intended to live in a vacuum.... they are supposed to be (scripturally) a part of a body.
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Totally agreed. I go to the OPC because it's my church, we've been here ten years, and they preach the Gospel and have a true sense of corporate responsibility, even though I'm now a Baptist. For me, the baby sprinkling is a reason to split church administration but not for an individual to leave a church. I know other people disagree, but I think if you're in a good Gospel church you should only leave it if you cannot physically attend or they insist on you subscribing to something against your conscience.
Traveling around the USA for family, I've usually attended Reformed, Presbyterian and Regular Baptist Churches. But if I had no good Reformed Church near me I'd swallow my pride and join a general Baptist. Some Pentecostal churches are pretty good in my judgment. I could not go to a Catholic Church as a member, because I'd have to lie to be there, but many Protestant churches are acceptable to me despite secondary and tertiary differences.
 
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hornetguy said:
The only scripture I remember about that is where believers are told that if they are sick, they should call the elders of the church to pray over them, and anoint them with oil.... I don't think there is any mention of any "miraculous" healing, as some of the Pentecostal groups claim..

I agree with this, but I'm afraid too many people use this as an excuse to forego attendance in a corporate church setting.... if the Spirit has "moved" you to an area with minimal church availability, I would see that as a strong nudge for YOU to be the one that actively seeks other believers, to form a body of believers that regularly meets together for each believer's edification and spiritual growth.
Believers are not intended to live in a vacuum.... they are supposed to be (scripturally) a part of a body. Too many scriptures show us that, how each member has a role to play, and without that role being fulfilled, the body is not "whole".... and, the part of the body that is removed from the body will wither and die... active participation is essential...
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That teaching applied to during the week, the church at that time took communion each service and received healing through communion. If we just "read about" our faith we miss the mark, pout "reading about" should lead to walking out what we "read about", as we take ALL things to Him and walk out is directions. If we aren't experiencing what we are reading about we are not where He wants us to be. He only did what He saw the Father do, He only said what He heard the Father say. He modeled how we are to live.
 
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