Comparing the King James Bible, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Septuagint

[tttallison]

A comparison of Isaiah 9:1-16

The Isaiah Scroll is the oldest having been carbon dated to 300/100 B.C. and is in the original language. The LXX has not been carbon dated but it has been attested to being in the Vatican Library in the 15th century. The LXX is a translation. All three manuscripts have been translated from their original languages into English.
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Isa 9:1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

DSS Yet the dimness shall not be like that which was her anguish when at the first time he lightly caused anguish to the land of Zebulan and to the land of Naphtali and afterward more heavily caused anguish by way of the sea beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.

LXX and he that is in anguish shall not be distressed only for a time. Drink this first. Act quickly, O land of Zabulon, land of Nephthalim, and the rest inhabiting the sea-coast, and the land beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.

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Isaiah 8:22 And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

DSS and to the earth they will look and behold sorrow and darkness dimness and anguish and they shall be driven into gloom.

LXX and they shall look on the earth below, and behold severe distress, and darkness, affliction, and anguish, and darkness so that one cannot see;

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Isaiah 9:2 Isa 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

DSS The people walking in darkness have seen a great light. Those dwelling in the land of the shadow of death, light has shined upon them

LXX O people walking in darkness, behold a great light: ye that dwell in the region and shadow of death, a light shall shine upon you.

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Isa 9:3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

DSS You have increased the nation but you have not enlarged the joy. They rejoice before you as those who rejoice in harvest and as when they are happy in the division of spoil.

LXX The multitude of the people which thou hast brought down in thy joy, they shall even rejoice before thee as they that rejoice in harvest, and as they that divide the spoil.

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Isa 9:4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian.

DXX Because the yoke of his burden and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor you have broken as in the day of Midian.

LXX Because the yoke that was laid upon them has been taken away, and the rod that was on their neck: for he has broken the rod of the exactors, as in the day of Madiam.

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Isa 9:5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

DSS Because every war of a warrior is with noise and clothes rolled in blood but this one with burning consuming fire.

LXX For they shall compensate for every garment that has been acquired by deceit, and all raiment with restitution; and they shall be willing, even if they were burnt with fire.

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Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

DSS Because a child shall be born to us and a son is given to us and the government shall be upon his shoulders and he shall be called wonderful, counsellor, mighty God, everlasting father the prince of peace.

LXX For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

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Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

DSS Of the increase of his government [&waw&} and his peace there shall be no end. upon the throne of David and over his kingdom to order it and to establish it in judgement and in righteousness from and until eternity, The zeal of YHWH of Hosts will perform this.

LXX His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgement and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.

Continued--

 

[Omegatime]

How about compare Exodus 12:40

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Zechariah 14:5
Masoretic Text

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And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zechariah 14:5​

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DSS

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Does not exist​

LXX

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And the valley of mountains will be closed up, for the valley of mountains will be joined to Azal. And it will be closed up as it was closed up from the presence of the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah. And the lord, my GOD, comes and all holy ones with him. Zechariah 14:5​

 

[Omegatime]

Zechariah 14:5
Masoretic Text View attachment 271486

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And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zechariah 14:5​

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DSS

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Does not exist​

LXX View attachment 271485

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And the valley of mountains will be closed up, for the valley of mountains will be joined to Azal. And it will be closed up as it was closed up from the presence of the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah. And the lord, my GOD, comes and all holy ones with him. Zechariah 14:5​

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The Holy Ones can be saints, angels or both

 

[tttallison]

Omegatime said "How about compare Exodus 12:40"

King James Exo 12:41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.

DSS 12:41 At the end of four hundred thirty years, to the day, all of Yahweh’s armies went out from the land of Egypt. (4Q14 Exodusc)

DSS 12:41 At the end of four hundred thirty years, to the day, all of Yahweh’s armies went out from the land of Egypt. (2Q2 Exodusa)

LXX Exodus 12:41 And it came to pass after the four hundred and thirty years, all the forces of the Lord came forth out of the land of Egypt by night.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

How about compare Exodus 12:40

That's interesting. Looks like the LXX is right. This shows Paul used the LXX, or a proto-Hebrew text

Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years. Exodus 12:40 (KJV)​

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And the dwelling of the sons of Israel, which they dwelt in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, they and their fathers -- four hundred thirty years. Exodus 12:40 (LXX)​

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And this I say, that the [Abrahamic] covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. Galatians 3:17​

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[tttallison]

How about compare Exodus 12:40

KJB Exo 12:40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.

DSS 40 Now the time that the children of Israel lived in Egypt was four hundred thirty years.

LXX 40 And the sojourning of the children of Israel, ††while they sojourned in the land of Egypt and the land of Chanaan, was four hundred and thirty years.

 

[tttallison]

That's interesting. Looks like the LXX is right. This shows Paul used the LXX, or a proto-Hebrew text

Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years. Exodus 12:40 (KJV)​

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And the dwelling of the sons of Israel, which they dwelt in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, they and their fathers -- four hundred thirty years. Exodus 12:40 (LXX)​

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And this I say, that the [Abrahamic] covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. Galatians 3:17​

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I am a little confused here. Just what is it that makes the LXX right?

On page 1512, next to Hebrews 1:3, the text contains a marginal note, "Fool and knave, leave the old reading and do not change it!" –

Just how much of it was changed? We know it was changed prior to 1580 when it was reinked. Why did they remove the most important part of a verse that confirmed the Deity of Christ? The names of Jesus, Wonderful, Councilor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

The DSS are carbon dated to approximately 165 B.C. They Septuagint is not.

 

[Omegatime]

Ever notice the jews today do not believe they were in Egypt for 430 years? But about half that time. In my personal studies I say 315 years in Egypt and 115 years in Cannan. Apparently the jews found out when assembling the Masoretic text when Christ was born, which I say was Passover. Why they removed Cannan from Exodus 12:40.

From the death of Abraham in creation year 2123 to the Exodus on Passover year 2553.

Jacob stands before Pharoh at 130 years of age ( creation year 2238 ). Add 315 years and we have Exodus date on Passover 2553.

Children of Israel were in the land of Cannan for 115 years.

If one would go back and look at Genesis 5 at the generational line, somethng is missing. There are no months or days given for birth , those born or died. Took me 30 years to figure out they all were born and died the same day, everyone in the generational line from Adam to Christ.

Not here to debate this, only sharing. Much more info.

 

[tttallison]

Ever notice the jews today do not believe they were in Egypt for 430 years? But about half that time. In my personal studies I say 315 years in Egypt and 115 years in Cannan. Apparently the jews found out when assembling the Masoretic text when Christ was born, which I say was Passover. Why they removed Cannan from Exodus 12:40.

From the death of Abraham in creation year 2123 to the Exodus on Passover year 2553.

Jacob stands before Pharoh at 130 years of age ( creation year 2238 ). Add 315 years and we have Exodus date on Passover 2553.

Children of Israel were in the land of Cannan for 115 years.

If one would go back and look at Genesis 5 at the generational line, somethng is missing. There are no months or days given for birth , those born or died. Took me 30 years to figure out they all were born and died the same day, everyone in the generational line from Adam to Christ.

Not here to debate this, only sharing. Much more info.

It wasn't until Exodus 12:2 that there was a relationship with months and years.

 

[Omegatime]

Gen 7:11


In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Gen 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

That's interesting that this is the first use of a specific date because 150 days later the ark rested, which appears to foreshadow the festival of tabernacles when Israel rested from its yearly labors, which is a shadow of our future rest in Christ when he returns. The ark rest date falls on the 3rd day of tabernacles

And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. Genesis 8:4​

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Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath. And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days. Leviticus 23:39-40​

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[tttallison]

Gen 7:11


In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

The year was always in relationship to someone's life, or reign. In Exodus 12:2 a starting month for a year was first established.

 

[tttallison]

In every Dead Sea Scroll examined so far, the Masoretic text and the Dead Sea Scroll are in agreement, and the Septuagint is not. The Dead Sea Scrolls are from B.C. as shown by carbon dating. The Septuagint has not been carbon dated and has shown to be altered.


KJB Jer 43:10 And say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.


DSS Jeremiah 43:10 and tell them, Yahweh of Armies, the God of Israel, says: ‘Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne on these stones that I have hidden; and he will spread his royal pavilion over them.


LXX Jeremiah 50:10 and thou shalt say, Thus has the Lord said; Behold, I will send, and will bring Nabuchodonosor king of Babylon, and he shall place his throne upon these stones which thou hast hidden, and he shall lift up weapons against them.

The chapters in Jeremiah in the Septuagint are out of order. Thus Jeremiah 43:10 equals Jeremiah 50:10 in the Septuagint.

 

[tttallison]

If I was to say Jesus was a Grecian what would your first response be?

Isn't that exactly what they are saying when they state that Jesus was reciting from the Greek? And that was because the Jews in the first century had abandoned using the Hebrew.

Does that make any sense to you, in light of the Hebrews in the early church neglecting the Grecian widows.

Act 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Either Jesus is a Grecian or our understanding is wrong.

We are told that the Septuagint is what Jesus quoted from due to the alignment of the Septuagint with the words of Jesus as quoted in the New Testament.

Are there any other scenarios which you might consider to explain this phenomenon?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

In every Dead Sea Scroll examined so far, the Masoretic text and the Dead Sea Scroll are in agreement, and the Septuagint is not.

Perhaps in tn the few verses you've examined, but overall the DSS agree more with the LXX than the MT

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Act 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

The Grecians (Ἑλληνιστής) in this verse were Greek speaking Jews, ie, Hellenists

G1675 Ἑλληνιστής Hellenistes (hel-lee-niy-stees') n/g.
a Hellenist or Greek-speaking Jew.

 

[tttallison]

Perhaps in tn the few verses you've examined, but overall the DSS agree more with the LXX than the MT

Not in any of the verses i have checked.

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DSS Isa 29:12 and the book is delivered to one who is not educated, saying, “Read this, please;” and he says, “I can’t read.”

Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.



LXX Isaiah 29:1212 And this book shall be given into the hands of a man that is unlearned, and one shall say to him, Read this; and he shall say, I am not learned.

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KJ Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

DSS Isaiah 29:13 The Lord said, “Because this people draws near with their mouth and honors me I am honored with their lips, but they have removed their heart far from me, and their fear of me is like a commandment of men which has been taught;



LXX 29:13 And the Lord has said, This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.

KJB Mark 7:6-7, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

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DSS Isa 29:14 therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men will perish, and the understanding of their prudent men will be hidden.”

KJ Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.



LXX Isa 29:14 Therefore behold I will proceed to remove this people, and I will remove them: and I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will hide the understanding of the prudent.

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DSS Woe to those who deeply hide their counsel from Yahweh, and whose deeds are in the dark, and who say, “Who sees us?” and “Who knows us?”

KJ Isa 29:15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

LXX 29:15 Woe to them that deepen their counsel, and not by the Lord. Woe to them that take secret counsel, and whose works **are in darkness, and they say, Who has seen us? and who shall know us, or what we do?

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DSS Isa 29:16 You turn things upside down! Should the potter be thought to be like clay; that the thing made should say about him who made it, “He didn’t make me;” or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding?”

KJ Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

LXX Isa 29:16 Shall ye not be counted as clay of the potter? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Thou didst not form me? or the work to the maker, Thou hast not made me wisely?

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Can you show me four or five consecutive verses where the LXX agrees more with the DSS, than does the Masoretic text agree with the DSS?

 

[tttallison]

The Grecians (Ἑλληνιστής) in this verse were Greek speaking Jews, ie, Hellenists

G1675 Ἑλληνιστής Hellenistes (hel-lee-niy-stees') n/g.
a Hellenist or Greek-speaking Jew.

Yes, they are Hellenists, but they also were called Grecians by the English bible for seven centuries starting with Wycliffe.