Circular reasoning in the trinity doctrine?

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Gideon300 said:
The Father is unknowable? Not so. Jesus said that if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. If you do not know the Father, you do not have eternal life. (John 17:3)
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I said it's not possible to know the Father DIRECTLY, unless you ascend into heaven and meet him face to face. The only way to know him is through Jesus, which is an INdirect approach. You can know ABOUT God the father, the Creator, through his wonderful creation, like knowing ABOUT an artist, a novelist or a craftsman through their work, but you won't truly know them personally.
 
RegisterNow said:
I said it's not possible to know the Father DIRECTLY, unless you ascend into heaven and meet him face to face. The only way to know him is through Jesus, which is an INdirect approach. You can know ABOUT God the father, the Creator, through his wonderful creation, like knowing ABOUT an artist, a novelist or a craftsman through their work, but you won't truly know them personally.
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John 17:3 contradicts your statement. God can't be seen, but He can be known. I can't see Jesus physically right now and I never have. I do know Him, the same way that I know the Father. I see Jesus and know Jesus in my spirit man. I know my heavenly Father the same way.
 
Gideon300 said:
John 17:3 contradicts your statement. God can't be seen, but He can be known. I can't see Jesus physically right now and I never have. I do know Him, the same way that I know the Father. I see Jesus and know Jesus in my spirit man. I know my heavenly Father the same way.
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John 14:6 supports my statement. And of course Jesus is not seen physically, he taught the disciples repeatedly that he must depart for their own benefit. The one that takes his place is the Holy Spirit, the Helper. Whenever and wherever two or more are gathered in Jesus' name, he's in their midst.
 
RegisterNow said:
The canonical trinity doctrine states: God is manifested in three distinct co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit), the problem arises in the reverse when you explain who the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are. If you identiy each member of the trinity as God, then that's three circular reasonings: God is the father, the son and the Holy Spirit; the father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. I pointed this out in a heated discussion, they got upset, mocked me dumb and banned me, yet the issue of circular reasoning remains.

I think one solution is to understand the holy trinity as a mechanism - The father is the eternal creator of the universe; no one comes to the Father except through the Son; no one comes to the son except through the Holy Spirit. To break it further down, in traditional Eastern Orthodox understanding of the trinity, God the Father is a total mystery unknowable to men directly, because as the eternal creator, he dwells in a separate realm beyond the time-space continuum he created; the only access to him though is a human medium, in the OT it was Enoch, Moses and the prophets, in the NT it is Jesus and the church. All the heavenly virtues and splendor of God, such as beauty, mercy, justice, charity, discernment, contentment, kindness, faithfulness, are fruits of the Holy Spirit, and they can be traced to Jesus and the church, then you learn about our heavenly father through his earthly presence.

The terrifying and pressing concern though, is that Satan runs a counterfeit Trinity in Revelation - Satan the Father, Beast the son, False Prophet the spirit. And that's why I believe the trinity is a mechansim rather than God's core identity, because first, as stated above, God is unknowable, you can't put him in a box; second, real identity cannot be copied, and yet it will be copied, people will worship the Beast as the messiah.
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Matt 11: 27 All things are delivered unto me by my Father, and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, except the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him. God the Father has god-like qualities such as being everywhere at once, knows what everyone is thinking and feeling, can do anything, knows everything including past, present, and future, has always existed, and can create realities in His mind. That is how He has all those qualities. Our reality is in the mind of the Father. The beginning of our reality started when the Father placed a living being in it, with his own mind, will, heart, and soul. In a vacuum with nothing in it and nothing is happening, time does not exist. When this event happened, there came into existence a before, a during, and an after. Time began. Isaiah 43:10 ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen, that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. The Lord speaking cannot be the Father (God Almighty) because The Father has always existed and there is no "before" Him. The Lord in this verse is the Son. Our reality was created by the Father through His Son and for His Son. That is why the Son is the Lord and God of our reality, but the Father is the Lord and God of all realities. The Father interacts with our reality through His Holy Spirit. Isaiah 63: 9-10 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and he bore them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit; therefore, He was turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them. The Holy Spirit is referred to as an angel because it can be sent, and where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. The Father fills this living being with His Holy Spirit so that this living being is filled with His presence and together they create our reality. Our reality was created by the Father through this being. That is what is meant by the expression "sitting on the right hand of the Father". This being was the first and only being formed from the Father and he is the temple of the Father in our reality. That is why this being is the offspring of the Father and is referred to as the only begotten Son of God, and the image of the invisible God, because the Father's presence (His Holy Spirit) resides in His Son. The Father loves His Son and the Son loves the Father and obeys Him. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son subjugates His will to the Father's. The Father created all things in our reality through His Son and for His Son. All things created are placed by the Father under the Son's feet. I believe that makes the Son Lord of all creation as well as the God of all creation, but the Father is the one God of all realities, including His Son.
 
RegisterNow said:
The father is the eternal creator of the universe; no one comes to the Father except through the Son; no one comes to the son except through the Holy Spirit.
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I think you need to read and research this again ------cause what your saying is kinda not quite accurate --

The Father Spoke the Word who is Jesus and Jesus Created everything through the Father speaking out -the Word --the Holy Spirit actually comes from the Spirit of the Father and the Son -----so all are one God with 3 different functions -------

think that through ------

The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.


it says WITHOUT HIM ---who is HIM ----the Word -----the Father Spoke the Son ===the Word and the Son created the world -----and us
 
RegisterNow said:
The canonical trinity doctrine states: God is manifested in three distinct co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit), the problem arises in the reverse when you explain who the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are. If you identiy each member of the trinity as God, then that's three circular reasonings: God is the father, the son and the Holy Spirit; the father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. I pointed this out in a heated discussion, they got upset, mocked me dumb and banned me, yet the issue of circular reasoning remains.

I think one solution is to understand the holy trinity as a mechanism - The father is the eternal creator of the universe; no one comes to the Father except through the Son; no one comes to the son except through the Holy Spirit. To break it further down, in traditional Eastern Orthodox understanding of the trinity, God the Father is a total mystery unknowable to men directly, because as the eternal creator, he dwells in a separate realm beyond the time-space continuum he created; the only access to him though is a human medium, in the OT it was Enoch, Moses and the prophets, in the NT it is Jesus and the church. All the heavenly virtues and splendor of God, such as beauty, mercy, justice, charity, discernment, contentment, kindness, faithfulness, are fruits of the Holy Spirit, and they can be traced to Jesus and the church, then you learn about our heavenly father through his earthly presence.

The terrifying and pressing concern though, is that Satan runs a counterfeit Trinity in Revelation - Satan the Father, Beast the son, False Prophet the spirit. And that's why I believe the trinity is a mechansim rather than God's core identity, because first, as stated above, God is unknowable, you can't put him in a box; second, real identity cannot be copied, and yet it will be copied, people will worship the Beast as the messiah.
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It’s only circular reasoning to a mind trying to use logic to understand the Creator of ALL things.

BTW. Jesus is ALSO the Creator.

John speaking of Jesus here:

John 1:3

New King James Version

3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Again, Scripture speaking of Jesus here:

Colossians 1:16

New King James Version

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
 
PennEd said:
It’s only circular reasoning to a mind trying to use logic to understand the Creator of ALL things.

BTW. Jesus is ALSO the Creator.

John speaking of Jesus here:

John 1:3

New King James Version

3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Again, Scripture speaking of Jesus here:

Colossians 1:16

New King James Version

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
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Here's the distinction between creation and INCARNATION: the Word was God at the beginning, but the Word did NOT become flesh at the beginning. Jesus was the second the last Adam, but the first Adam was made on the sixth day. Jesus is the Word, sure, but only known as the Word in God's prophecy until the Word became flesh and walked among us.
 
RegisterNow said:
The canonical trinity doctrine states: God is manifested in three distinct co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit), the problem arises in the reverse when you explain who the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are. If you identiy each member of the trinity as God, then that's three circular reasonings: God is the father, the son and the Holy Spirit; the father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. I pointed this out in a heated discussion, they got upset, mocked me dumb and banned me, yet the issue of circular reasoning remains.

I think one solution is to understand the holy trinity as a mechanism - The father is the eternal creator of the universe; no one comes to the Father except through the Son; no one comes to the son except through the Holy Spirit. To break it further down, in traditional Eastern Orthodox understanding of the trinity, God the Father is a total mystery unknowable to men directly, because as the eternal creator, he dwells in a separate realm beyond the time-space continuum he created; the only access to him though is a human medium, in the OT it was Enoch, Moses and the prophets, in the NT it is Jesus and the church. All the heavenly virtues and splendor of God, such as beauty, mercy, justice, charity, discernment, contentment, kindness, faithfulness, are fruits of the Holy Spirit, and they can be traced to Jesus and the church, then you learn about our heavenly father through his earthly presence.

The terrifying and pressing concern though, is that Satan runs a counterfeit Trinity in Revelation - Satan the Father, Beast the son, False Prophet the spirit. And that's why I believe the trinity is a mechansim rather than God's core identity, because first, as stated above, God is unknowable, you can't put him in a box; second, real identity cannot be copied, and yet it will be copied, people will worship the Beast as the messiah.
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Hmm interesting, like an octopus that has a three heart mechanism.
 
studentoftheword said:
I think you need to read and research this again ------cause what your saying is kinda not quite accurate --

The Father Spoke the Word who is Jesus and Jesus Created everything through the Father speaking out -the Word --the Holy Spirit actually comes from the Spirit of the Father and the Son -----so all are one God with 3 different functions -------

think that through ------

The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.


it says WITHOUT HIM ---who is HIM ----the Word -----the Father Spoke the Son ===the Word and the Son created the world -----and us
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What I'm saying is primarily about the relationship between the three Persons, how they function as one.
 
RegisterNow said:
What scripture has to say is evidenced in the Nicene Creed, also known as Apostle's Creed, in which the distinct roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are laid out in detail.
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The Nicene Creed is not the Apostles' Creed. It was composed in AD 381, not in the first century AD when the apostles were preaching their gospel.
 
RegisterNow said:
What I'm saying is primarily about the relationship between the three Persons, how they function as one.
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AI answers your question

Key Aspects of the Relationship
  • One God, Three Persons: There is one God, not three separate gods. Each Person (Father, Son, Spirit) is fully God, but they are not identical to each other.
  • Distinct Roles:
    • Father: The Creator, the source of all things, who planned redemption.
    • Son (Jesus Christ): God incarnate, who accomplished redemption through His life, death, and resurrection.
    • Holy Spirit: God's active presence in the world, who comforts, guides, empowers believers, and applies Christ's work.
  • Unity in Essence: They share the same divine nature, essence, and being.
  • Eternal Relationship: They exist in a perfect, loving relationship with one another, described as a community of love, predating creation.
  • Processions: Traditionally, the Father begets the Son, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father (and, in Western theology, the Son).
How They Relate in Salvation (Economy)
  • The Father plans redemption and sends the Son.
  • The Son accomplishes redemption by coming to Earth.
  • The Holy Spirit applies redemption to believers, making it real in their lives.
In essence, the Trinity describes the complex, relational nature of the one God, revealing Himself as both transcendent (Father) and intimately involved (Son and Spirit) in the world.
 
studentoftheword said:
AI answers your question

Key Aspects of the Relationship
  • One God, Three Persons: There is one God, not three separate gods. Each Person (Father, Son, Spirit) is fully God, but they are not identical to each other.
  • Distinct Roles:
    • Father: The Creator, the source of all things, who planned redemption.
    • Son (Jesus Christ): God incarnate, who accomplished redemption through His life, death, and resurrection.
    • Holy Spirit: God's active presence in the world, who comforts, guides, empowers believers, and applies Christ's work.
  • Unity in Essence: They share the same divine nature, essence, and being.
  • Eternal Relationship: They exist in a perfect, loving relationship with one another, described as a community of love, predating creation.
  • Processions: Traditionally, the Father begets the Son, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father (and, in Western theology, the Son).
How They Relate in Salvation (Economy)
  • The Father plans redemption and sends the Son.
  • The Son accomplishes redemption by coming to Earth.
  • The Holy Spirit applies redemption to believers, making it real in their lives.
In essence, the Trinity describes the complex, relational nature of the one God, revealing Himself as both transcendent (Father) and intimately involved (Son and Spirit) in the world.
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While I can agree with this generally, it does appear to overlook the fact that creation was accomplished through the Son, per John 1:3.
 
Dino246 said:
While I can agree with this generally, it does appear to overlook the fact that creation was accomplished through the Son, per John 1:3.
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Ya I agree the Son who was in the Father created everything ----the Father Spoke the Word ----so without the Father Speaking there would have been nothing created ---so maybe Technically speaking the Father is part of the creation ----The Father had His part and the Son had His part ---
 
studentoftheword said:
Ya I agree the Son who was in the Father created everything ----the Father Spoke the Word ----so without the Father Speaking there would have been nothing created ---so maybe Technically speaking the Father is part of the creation ----The Father had His part and the Son had His part ---
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You know, the title "father" is a relational term, a father is only identified as "father" through his children. Throughout the OT, God was usually called the Lord, never "father", only in the NT was he called "abba, Father" because from there on, He could be known through Jesus the Son, and furthermore, through us who are co-heirs with Christ, adopted through the Holy Spirit.
 
RegisterNow said:
The terrifying and pressing concern though, is that Satan runs a counterfeit Trinity in Revelation - Satan the Father, Beast the son, False Prophet the spirit. And that's why I believe the trinity is a mechansim rather than God's core identity, because first, as stated above, God is unknowable, you can't put him in a box; second, real identity cannot be copied, and yet it will be copied, people will worship the Beast as the messiah.
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I believe the Trinity is knowable. Its 3 Men sharing One position. in the same way there can be more than one founder of a company or more than one manager of a business.
 
Prycejosh1987 said:
I believe the Trinity is knowable. Its 3 Men sharing One position. in the same way there can be more than one founder of a company or more than one manager of a business.
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I on the other hand believe only Jesus the Son is knowalbe, because only He is a man, God is spirit (Jn. 4:12) and NOT a man (Num. 23:19).
 
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