Circular reasoning in the trinity doctrine?

[memberofthebride]

The word can do nothing without the ghost

really what is a ghost?? I find the ghost to be an invention of the translators or whom ever as the word translated as ghost is actually spirit, breath

I wonder why Christ did not include it in the ONE? if this so called "ghost" is so important,

Do not misunderstand, the Spirit of the Father is important and His spirit gives Eternal life.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

really what is a ghost?? I find the ghost to be an invention of the translators or whom ever as the word translated as ghost is actually spirit, breath

I wonder why Christ did not include it in the ONE? if this so called "ghost" is so important,

Do not misunderstand, the Spirit of the Father is important and His spirit gives Eternal life.

I just used the word ghost because you did. Yes, it is the spirit

 

[Dino246]

So another example of meaningless chitter chatter in circular reasoning is when a person finds more than one conclusion to find favour over another conclusion that does not hold more premise , and just argues the toss all day long with a premise that isn't really important

That one is called the height of ignorance circular reasoning.

No, it’s not. They are two different things.

Circular reasoning is a specific logical error. Whatever you described… isn’t.

 

[Jordon]

No, it’s not. They are two different things.

Circular reasoning is a specific logical error. Whatever you described… isn’t.

well perhaps this may help

Circular reasoning is always unavoidable

When a none believer asks a Christians to prove there belief is true, they ask how do you know the bible is true, and the answer we give is, because the bible says so.

So the answer the none believers says, then your using the bible to prove the bible, which is called circular reasoning.

Here watch with your own eyes

 

[Dino246]

well perhaps this may help

Circular reasoning is always unavoidable

When a none believer asks a Christians to prove there belief is true, they ask how do you know the bible is true, and the answer we give is, because the bible says so.

So the answer the none believers says, then your using the bible to prove the bible, which is called circular reasoning.

There are many proofs for the validity of the Christian faith that don’t employ circular reasoning. It definitely is not “unavoidable”.

 

[Gideon300]

The canonical trinity doctrine states: God is manifested in three distinct co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit), the problem arises in the reverse when you explain who the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are. If you identiy each member of the trinity as God, then that's three circular reasonings: God is the father, the son and the Holy Spirit; the father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. I pointed this out in a heated discussion, they got upset, mocked me dumb and banned me, yet the issue of circular reasoning remains.

I think one solution is to understand the holy trinity as a mechanism - The father is the eternal creator of the universe; no one comes to the Father except through the Son; no one comes to the son except through the Holy Spirit. To break it further down, in traditional Eastern Orthodox understanding of the trinity, God the Father is a total mystery unknowable to men directly, because as the eternal creator, he dwells in a separate realm beyond the time-space continuum he created; the only access to him though is a human medium, in the OT it was Enoch, Moses and the prophets, in the NT it is Jesus and the church. All the heavenly virtues and splendor of God, such as beauty, mercy, justice, charity, discernment, contentment, kindness, faithfulness, are fruits of the Holy Spirit, and they can be traced to Jesus and the church, then you learn about our heavenly father through his earthly presence.

The terrifying and pressing concern though, is that Satan runs a counterfeit Trinity in Revelation - Satan the Father, Beast the son, False Prophet the spirit. And that's why I believe the trinity is a mechansim rather than God's core identity, because first, as stated above, God is unknowable, you can't put him in a box; second, real identity cannot be copied, and yet it will be copied, people will worship the Beast as the messiah.

Anyone trying to explain the trinity is attempting the impossible. Jesus is the Creator. (John 1:10, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2.) The Holy Spirit was there at creation. The answer is not to reason. It's beyond the capacity of the human mind. There is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

The Father is unknowable? Not so. Jesus said that if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. If you do not know the Father, you do not have eternal life. (John 17:3)

 

[Magenta]

All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. Matthew 11 v 27

 

[Jordon]

There are many proofs for the validity of the Christian faith that don’t employ circular reasoning. It definitely is not “unavoidable”.

Yes well you would have you use some form of circular reasoning to prove it

For instance nobody knows the hours or the day as magenta as just said , but you could reason actually we do by what the lord says

So yes circular reason is always unavoidable in many situations.

It's avoided when you don't try not to not reason with it yourself

 

[Dino246]

Yes well you would have you use some form of circular reasoning to prove it

No, you would not.

So yes circular reason is always unavoidable in many situations.

Some arguments rely on circular reasoning. Good arguments don’t.

It's avoided when you don't try not to not reason with it yourself

That doesn’t make sense.

 

[Jordon]

No, you would not.


Some arguments rely on circular reasoning. Good arguments don’t.


That doesn’t make sense.

bla bla bla

 

[homwardbound]

The canonical trinity doctrine states: God is manifested in three distinct co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit), the problem arises in the reverse when you explain who the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are. If you identiy each member of the trinity as God, then that's three circular reasonings: God is the father, the son and the Holy Spirit; the father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. I pointed this out in a heated discussion, they got upset, mocked me dumb and banned me, yet the issue of circular reasoning remains.

I think one solution is to understand the holy trinity as a mechanism - The father is the eternal creator of the universe; no one comes to the Father except through the Son; no one comes to the son except through the Holy Spirit. To break it further down, in traditional Eastern Orthodox understanding of the trinity, God the Father is a total mystery unknowable to men directly, because as the eternal creator, he dwells in a separate realm beyond the time-space continuum he created; the only access to him though is a human medium, in the OT it was Enoch, Moses and the prophets, in the NT it is Jesus and the church. All the heavenly virtues and splendor of God, such as beauty, mercy, justice, charity, discernment, contentment, kindness, faithfulness, are fruits of the Holy Spirit, and they can be traced to Jesus and the church, then you learn about our heavenly father through his earthly presence.

The terrifying and pressing concern though, is that Satan runs a counterfeit Trinity in Revelation - Satan the Father, Beast the son, False Prophet the spirit. And that's why I believe the trinity is a mechansim rather than God's core identity, because first, as stated above, God is unknowable, you can't put him in a box; second, real identity cannot be copied, and yet it will be copied, people will worship the Beast as the messiah.

I see a completed circle. God is complete, there is no beginning and ending. God is, Jesus represented His Father and did the law perfect for us to be made new in his risen Life. For us all that believe and will not quit, these after going through troubles first, that do not give up, get revealed the whole truth, nothing but the truth that God does Loves us all. Free choice to choose that is, real love, otherwise we if no free choice to choose would be puppets.
If God takes away free will, how can God claim true love to all?

I see me, I see how can I get anyone to love me for real, if I take away anyone's free choice to choose love, and I deceive them to love me? They really do not love do they?

The Counterfeiter
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Ezekiel 33:13
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

2 Corinthians 1:9
but we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

There is working iniquity, (is of the flesh)
There is glorying in iniquity, the working of God through us
You see I you and all need God to lead not we lead, at least me, I can only speak for me

Ephesians 6:10
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Philippians 3:1
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

read the whole Chapter of Phil 3 put no trust in flesh. Please read all verses in context please?

Psalm 56:4
In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.
Deuteronomy 3:22
Ye shall not fear them: for the Lord your God he shall fight for you.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Dino246]

bla bla bla

Thanks for your highly rational rebuttal.

 

[Jordon]

Thanks for your highly rational rebuttal.

Thanks It was what you call a none circular reasoning approach. .

 

[rewriter]

What scripture has to say is evidenced in the Nicene Cread, also known as Apostle's Creed, in which the distinct roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are laid out in detail. The problem occurs only when you take the Holy Trinity as God's one and only identity - who is God? God is Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, three in one. Who is the Father? The Father is God. Who is the Son? The Son is God. Who is the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is God. It might not be "reasoning", but it's definitely circular, without any external information. You know, when Jesus argued about his deity, he told the pharisees to bear witness of his miracular works. Don't take his word, let his works speak for themselves, for no ordinary man could do what he did by themselves.

The Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed are two different Creeds. The Apostles Creed most likely dates back to a very similar version found in Rome in the early 1st century. The Nicene Creed clearly dates to 325 in its original form and then revised later into the form we have today.

 

[rewriter]

The doctrine of the Christian trinity was first formally presented by Tertullian, late 2nd century to early 3rd. But for at least a thousand years previously pagan religions recognized triune godheads. But also, in early Christian writings there is the Didache, a work that was long considered to possibly be scripture. In, this late 1st century to early 2nd, it clearly states three things. First that only God the Father should be considered fully divine, second that only God the Father and Christ the Son should be considered fully divine and third that God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit were all fully divine.

The doctrine was formally accepted at the Council of Nicaea under the strong "encouragement" of the then pagan Constantine and followed Greek thought for support.

 

[Jordon]

The doctrine of the Christian trinity was first formally presented by Tertullian, late 2nd century to early 3rd. But for at least a thousand years previously pagan religions recognized triune godheads. But also, in early Christian writings there is the Didache, a work that was long considered to possibly be scripture. In, this late 1st century to early 2nd, it clearly states three things. First that only God the Father should be considered fully divine, second that only God the Father and Christ the Son should be considered fully divine and third that God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit were all fully divine.

The doctrine was formally accepted at the Council of Nicaea under the strong "encouragement" of the then pagan Constantine and followed Greek thought for support.

The council of nicea took in place 325 ad

And Constantine the great formally confirmed his faith in Christianity, and was baptised in 337 ad just before his death

So maybe he was encouraged more than he encouraged

 

[PaulThomson]

well perhaps this may help

Circular reasoning is always unavoidable

When a none believer asks a Christians to prove there belief is true, they ask how do you know the bible is true, and the answer we give is, because the bible says so.

So the answer the none believers says, then your using the bible to prove the bible, which is called circular reasoning.

Here watch with your own eyes

Yes that is circular reasoning. What your OP is complaining about is not an example of circular reasoning.


Trinitarians would say "The scriptures talk about "the Father" as God, and "the Son or Word" as God and "the Holy Spirit" as God, therefore God must be three persons.

And they would say that the Bible speaks of God as one entity. Therefore there is only one God.

Trinitarians explain those two Biblical facts with a trinitarian model. Unitarians explain those facts using a unitarian model. None of us can know for sure that the contrary model is absolutely false and our model is absolutely true. God is ineffable, well beyond our minds ability to comprehend, and fully describe accurately. The humble stance is to allow followers of Jesus to come to their own conclusions based on their experience with God and the Word. The Christian stance is certainly not to appoint oneself as the supreme teacher with whom every true Christian must agree. That would contradict Jesus' instruction to call no man your teacher.

Mat 23:8
“But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ,[fn] and you are all brethren.
Mat 23:10
“And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

Is it logical to assume that, because the Bible seems to only refer to three Persons as God, God must be only three Persons? Should we be making the number of Person in the Godhead a dogma, if the scriptures are not explicit on saying there are only three? Maybe there are more divine persons in the single Godhead doing things in other universes not mentioned in the Bible for us to know about. I think we need a bit more epistemic humility and a lot more tolerance toward Christ followers who interpret some scriptural passages differently from us.

 

[sawdust]

I don't need to prove it's true, I need to properly understand it, instead of weaponizing it against fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who have a slight disagreement with you.

One of the best teachings I have heard on why God is a Trinity was in a class where we were divided into three groups and had to do a word association with one group on Father, the next group on Son and the last group on Spirit. What we came away with was how each person of the Trinity leans heavily in one direction but together they give a far more accurate portrayal of who God is ie. absolute authority (Father), absolute mercy (Son), and absolute power (Spirit).

If you look at various cults, movements and/or churches that emphasize one over the other you will see a definite pattern emerge. Those who emphasize the Father are generally very authoritarian with little "wiggle room" for mercy. Those who emphasize the Son become overly tolerant toward evil in order to have mercy on all and those who emphasize the Spirit are overly energetic sometimes to the point of "lunacy".

How God can present Himself as a Trinity baffles me and most likely always will but why He is, is evident in practical demonstration.

 

[Jordon]

Yes that is circular reasoning. What your OP is complaining about is not an example of circular reasoning.


Trinitarians would say "The scriptures talk about "the Father" as God, and "the Son or Word" as God and "the Holy Spirit" as God, therefore God must be three persons.

And they would say that the Bible speaks of God as one entity. Therefore there is only one God.

Trinitarians explain those two Biblical facts with a trinitarian model. Unitarians explain those facts using a unitarian model. None of us can know for sure that the contrary model is absolutely false and our model is absolutely true. God is ineffable, well beyond our minds ability to comprehend, and fully describe accurately. The humble stance is to allow followers of Jesus to come to their own conclusions based on their experience with God and the Word. The Christian stance is certainly not to appoint oneself as the supreme teacher with whom every true Christian must agree. That would contradict Jesus' instruction to call no man your teacher.

Mat 23:8
“But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ,[fn] and you are all brethren.
Mat 23:10
“And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

Is it logical to assume that, because the Bible seems to only refer to three Persons as God, God must be only three Persons? Should we be making the number of Person in the Godhead a dogma, if the scriptures are not explicit on saying there are only three? Maybe there are more divine persons in the single Godhead doing things in other universes not mentioned in the Bible for us to know about. I think we need a bit more epistemic humility and a lot more tolerance toward Christ followers who interpret some scriptural passages differently from us.

It's well known the three are one whilst retaining all the same characteristics. Gods devine nature, and it's core tenet of Christian belief,

It's something nearly every child in the UK grows up learning, passed down from the knowledge of our forefathers, the fact that's it's God divine nature really should say to any individual it's to complex to fully understand.

All three divine natures also come togeather as one in a saved person.

All authority in heaven exists in both the son the father and the holy spirit, they are always one never separated.

The devine nature of the father comes first in a person sometimes for many years then then the son, then the sealing of holy spirit. Which are both immediate.

 

[RegisterNow]

One of the best teachings I have heard on why God is a Trinity was in a class where we were divided into three groups and had to do a word association with one group on Father, the next group on Son and the last group on Spirit. What we came away with was how each person of the Trinity leans heavily in one direction but together they give a far more accurate portrayal of who God is ie. absolute authority (Father), absolute mercy (Son), and absolute power (Spirit).

If you look at various cults, movements and/or churches that emphasize one over the other you will see a definite pattern emerge. Those who emphasize the Father are generally very authoritarian with little "wiggle room" for mercy. Those who emphasize the Son become overly tolerant toward evil in order to have mercy on all and those who emphasize the Spirit are overly energetic sometimes to the point of "lunacy".

How God can present Himself as a Trinity baffles me and most likely always will but why He is, is evident in practical demonstration.

There's nothing baffling or confusing, if you can see Jesus as God's earthly spokesperson, medium or ambassador. The tricky thing is that the Holy Spirit is spirit, God is also spirit (Jn. 4:12), only Lord Jesus is a real human being of flesh and blood who "walks among us", and he's the only way to God. That doesn't mean the father and the spirit are not real, not does it indicate modalism, the point is that we should focus on Jesus only, instead of the father, the spirit or the abstract concept of trinity, that is what king Solomon called in Ecclasiates, "grasping for the wind", literally, since "spirit" also means wind.