Circular reasoning in the trinity doctrine?

[RegisterNow]

The canonical trinity doctrine states: God is manifested in three distinct co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit), the problem arises in the reverse when you explain who the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are. If you identiy each member of the trinity as God, then that's three circular reasonings: God is the father, the son and the Holy Spirit; the father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. I pointed this out in a heated discussion, they got upset, mocked me dumb and banned me, yet the issue of circular reasoning remains.

I think one solution is to understand the holy trinity as a mechanism - The father is the eternal creator of the universe; no one comes to the Father except through the Son; no one comes to the son except through the Holy Spirit. To break it further down, in traditional Eastern Orthodox understanding of the trinity, God the Father is a total mystery unknowable to men directly, because as the eternal creator, he dwells in a separate realm beyond the time-space continuum he created; the only access to him though is a human medium, in the OT it was Enoch, Moses and the prophets, in the NT it is Jesus and the church. All the heavenly virtues and splendor of God, such as beauty, mercy, justice, charity, discernment, contentment, kindness, faithfulness, are fruits of the Holy Spirit, and they can be traced to Jesus and the church, then you learn about our heavenly father through his earthly presence.

The terrifying and pressing concern though, is that Satan runs a counterfeit Trinity in Revelation - Satan the Father, Beast the son, False Prophet the spirit. And that's why I believe the trinity is a mechansim rather than God's core identity, because first, as stated above, God is unknowable, you can't put him in a box; second, real identity cannot be copied, and yet it will be copied, people will worship the Beast as the messiah.

 

[John1335]

The canonical trinity doctrine states: God is manifested in three distinct co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit), the problem arises in the reverse when you explain who the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are. If you identiy each member of the trinity as God, then that's three circular reasonings: God is the father, the son and the Holy Spirit; the father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. I pointed this out in a heated discussion, they got upset, mocked me dumb and banned me, yet the issue of circular reasoning remains.

I think one solution is to understand the holy trinity as a mechanism - The father is the eternal creator of the universe; no one comes to the Father except through the Son; no one comes to the son except through the Holy Spirit. To break it further down, in traditional Eastern Orthodox understanding of the trinity, God the Father is a total mystery unknowable to men directly, because as the eternal creator, he dwells in a separate realm beyond the time-space continuum he created; the only access to him though is a human medium, in the OT it was Enoch, Moses and the prophets, in the NT it is Jesus and the church. All the heavenly virtues and splendor of God, such as beauty, mercy, justice, charity, discernment, contentment, kindness, faithfulness, are fruits of the Holy Spirit, and they can be traced to Jesus and the church, then you learn about our heavenly father through his earthly presence.

The terrifying and pressing concern though, is that Satan runs a counterfeit Trinity in Revelation - Satan the Father, Beast the son, False Prophet the spirit. And that's why I believe the trinity is a mechansim rather than God's core identity, because first, as stated above, God is unknowable, you can't put him in a box; second, real identity cannot be copied, and yet it will be copied, people will worship the Beast as the messiah.

The Orthodox perspective is an interesting one. Thanks for sharing.
I struggled with the Trinity for many years. Until I decided to really get into the scriptures about it. I couldn't deny it, it was right there in black and white and red. Does that mean I will ever wrap my mind around it, probably not. I thank the Father the Son, and the Holy Spirit that I dont have too.

 

[PaulThomson]

The canonical trinity doctrine states: God is manifested in three distinct co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit), the problem arises in the reverse when you explain who the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are. If you identiy each member of the trinity as God, then that's three circular reasonings: God is the father, the son and the Holy Spirit; the father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. I pointed this out in a heated discussion, they got upset, mocked me dumb and banned me, yet the issue of circular reasoning remains.

I really don't understand the point you are trying to make here. Circular reasoning is where you prove A by B, and B by A.

No one is trying to prove that we know that
A: God is manifested in three distinct co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit) BECAUSE
B: the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

And no one is trying to prove that we know that
B: the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God BECAUSE
A: God is manifested in three distinct co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit).

A and B are usually evidenced from what scripture has to say about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and God.

 

[GWH]

The canonical trinity doctrine states: God is manifested in three distinct co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit), the problem arises in the reverse when you explain who the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are. If you identiy each member of the trinity as God, then that's three circular reasonings: God is the father, the son and the Holy Spirit; the father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. I pointed this out in a heated discussion, they got upset, mocked me dumb and banned me, yet the issue of circular reasoning remains.

I think one solution is to understand the holy trinity as a mechanism - The father is the eternal creator of the universe; no one comes to the Father except through the Son; no one comes to the son except through the Holy Spirit. To break it further down, in traditional Eastern Orthodox understanding of the trinity, God the Father is a total mystery unknowable to men directly, because as the eternal creator, he dwells in a separate realm beyond the time-space continuum he created; the only access to him though is a human medium, in the OT it was Enoch, Moses and the prophets, in the NT it is Jesus and the church. All the heavenly virtues and splendor of God, such as beauty, mercy, justice, charity, discernment, contentment, kindness, faithfulness, are fruits of the Holy Spirit, and they can be traced to Jesus and the church, then you learn about our heavenly father through his earthly presence.

The terrifying and pressing concern though, is that Satan runs a counterfeit Trinity in Revelation - Satan the Father, Beast the son, False Prophet the spirit. And that's why I believe the trinity is a mechansim rather than God's core identity, because first, as stated above, God is unknowable, you can't put him in a box; second, real identity cannot be copied, and yet it will be copied, people will worship the Beast as the messiah.

I think the better solution is to understand God as love, which requires relationship, as in Lover-Love-Beloved.

 

[RegisterNow]

I really don't understand the point you are trying to make here. Circular reasoning is where you prove A by B, and B by A.

No one is trying to prove that we know that
A: God is manifested in three distinct co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit) BECAUSE
B: the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

And no one is trying to prove that we know that
B: the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God BECAUSE
A: God is manifested in three distinct co-equal, co-eternal persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit).

A and B are usually evidenced from what scripture has to say about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and God.

What scripture has to say is evidenced in the Nicene Cread, also known as Apostle's Creed, in which the distinct roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are laid out in detail. The problem occurs only when you take the Holy Trinity as God's one and only identity - who is God? God is Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, three in one. Who is the Father? The Father is God. Who is the Son? The Son is God. Who is the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is God. It might not be "reasoning", but it's definitely circular, without any external information. You know, when Jesus argued about his deity, he told the pharisees to bear witness of his miracular works. Don't take his word, let his works speak for themselves, for no ordinary man could do what he did by themselves.

 

[memberofthebride]

I think the better solution is to understand God as love, which requires relationship, as in Lover-Love-Beloved.

MY comment:

After almost 60 years I have found no reason to see God as 3. a closed triangle.

John 10

30 I and [my] Father are one.

why then, is this "ghost" not included? If they are equal? and Christ has stated clearly The Father is greater then He. so co-equals can not true. why didn't Christ explain where this ghost place is, is it lower or higher?

Christ, THE WORD, made every single thing that has been make --- where is this ghost fellow?

My person view, the Father is the Supreme Architect and Christ is the Master Builder. Ghost is no where to be found in this.

Galatians 1

3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ,

in every greetings by the Apostle Paul, he leaves out this ghost. Why?

Another problem, The Holy Spirit can be poured, flow, measured and like living water can flow out of the belly of the resurrected.

Just exactly what is a "ghost" and does it even have a name?


the catholic's admit it is not biblical. this is the only thing I agree with

The Catholic Encyclopedia admits the Trinity is not biblical,
Catholic authority says that the Trinity “is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

The Catholic Encyclopedia comments: “In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word τρίας [tri′as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180." The New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: “The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament].”

Update : The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) discusses the Trinity at length and admits:

“The Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention”

The formulation of ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.” End of Quote;

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

My person view, the Father is the Supreme Architect and Christ is the Master Builder. Ghost is no where to be found in this.

The word can do nothing without the ghost

 

[Dino246]

MY comment:

After almost 60 years I have found no reason to see God as 3. a closed triangle.

John 10

30 I and [my] Father are one.

why then, is this "ghost" not included? If they are equal? and Christ has stated clearly The Father is greater then He. so co-equals can not true. why didn't Christ explain where this ghost place is, is it lower or higher?

Christ, THE WORD, made every single thing that has been make --- where is this ghost fellow?

My person view, the Father is the Supreme Architect and Christ is the Master Builder. Ghost is no where to be found in this.

Galatians 1

3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ,

in every greetings by the Apostle Paul, he leaves out this ghost. Why?

Another problem, The Holy Spirit can be poured, flow, measured and like living water can flow out of the belly of the resurrected.

Just exactly what is a "ghost" and does it even have a name?


the catholic's admit it is not biblical. this is the only thing I agree with

The Catholic Encyclopedia admits the Trinity is not biblical,
Catholic authority says that the Trinity “is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

The Catholic Encyclopedia comments: “In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word τρίας [tri′as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180." The New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: “The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament].”

Update : The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) discusses the Trinity at length and admits:

“The Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention”

The formulation of ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.” End of Quote;

This perfectly illustrates why we should stick with Scripture and ignore the ramblings of the Catholics.

 

[Dino246]

What scripture has to say is evidenced in the Nicene Cread, also known as Apostle's Creed, in which the distinct roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are laid out in detail. The problem occurs only when you take the Holy Trinity as God's one and only identity - who is God? God is Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, three in one. Who is the Father? The Father is God. Who is the Son? The Son is God. Who is the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is God. It might not be "reasoning", but it's definitely circular, without any external information. You know, when Jesus argued about his deity, he told the pharisees to bear witness of his miracular works. Don't take his word, let his works speak for themselves, for no ordinary man could do what he did by themselves.

The Apostle’ creed is not the Nicene creed. Don’t waste time arguing with the creeds: they aren’t Scripture.

Scripture tells us that each of the three is God, and that there is one God. It doesn’t employ circular reasoning.

 

[RegisterNow]

The Apostle’ creed is not the Nicene creed. Don’t waste time arguing with the creeds: they aren’t Scripture.

Scripture tells us that each of the three is God, and that there is one God. It doesn’t employ circular reasoning.

Just because something's not in the scripture doesn't mean it's not true. As a matter of fact, the trinity doctrine is not a direct quote from the scripture either. All that I'm against is explaining the trinity by circling back and forth between God and the three without any external information.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

In the epistles, God is called the father, but never the holy spirit or the son. However, the 3 are inseparable because the son is the image, or form, of the invisible God through which he interacts with his creation, and the spirit is the energy of God through which creation is established and maintained.

[His dear son] Who is the image (εἰκών) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Colossians 1:15​

​

G1504 εἰκών eikon (ei-kōn') n.
1. a likeness.

Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his energy (ἐνέργεια), which works in me in power. Colossians 1:29​

​

G1753 ἐνέργεια energeia (en-er'-ǰei-a) n.
efficiency (“energy”).

 

[tourist]

I think one solution is to understand the holy trinity as a mechanism - The father is the eternal creator of the universe; no one comes to

My understanding is that it is Jesus who is the eternal creator of the universe. He is a carpenter by trade and he takes pleasure in building things.

 

[Jordon]

Just because something's not in the scripture doesn't mean it's not true. As a matter of fact, the trinity doctrine is not a direct quote from the scripture either. All that I'm against is explaining the trinity by circling back and forth between God and the three without any external information.

circular reasoning is primarily based on you say it's true but you can't prove it.

It puts people in a difficult position,

So the best thing to do is reason with yourself, if you don't believe the trinity is true, you could reason that the egg has three layers, the shell the white and the yoke.

But if you break the egg then the the yolk is on you, and you may be left with egg on your face

 

[RegisterNow]

circular reasoning is primarily based on you say it's true but you can't prove it.

It puts people in a difficult position,

So the best thing to do is reason with yourself, if you don't believe the trinity is true, you could reason that the egg has three layers, the shell the white and the yoke.

But if you break the egg then the the yolk is on you, and you may be left with egg on your face

You can't prove the trinity doctrine by circling the three persons back to God. Even comparing them with the three layers of an egg is a better explanation.

 

[Dino246]

Just because something's not in the scripture doesn't mean it's not true. As a matter of fact, the trinity doctrine is not a direct quote from the scripture either. All that I'm against is explaining the trinity by circling back and forth between God and the three without any external information.

So the problem is not with the doctrine, but with some people’s explanation of it?

 

[RegisterNow]

So the problem is not with the doctrine, but with some people’s explanation of it?

Yes, I never questioned the doctrine itself. Besides, if the trinity doctrine is wrong, Satan wouldn't have counterfeited it with his own version.

 

[Dino246]

circular reasoning is primarily based on you say it's true but you can't prove it.

That’s not correct. Circular reasoning is when you use your conclusion as evidence for that conclusion.

So the best thing to do is reason with yourself, if you don't believe the trinity is true, you could reason that the egg has three layers, the shell the white and the yoke.

But if you break the egg then the the yolk is on you, and you may be left with egg on your face

The egg analogy is actually heretical. Most analogies are.

 

[Jordon]

You can't prove the trinity doctrine by circling the three persons back to God. Even comparing them with the three layers of an egg is a better explanation.

Why do you people need to prove it's true.

 

[RegisterNow]

Why do you people need to prove it's true.

I don't need to prove it's true, I need to properly understand it, instead of weaponizing it against fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who have a slight disagreement with you.

 

[Jordon]

That’s not correct. Circular reasoning is when you use your conclusion as evidence for that conclusion.


The egg analogy is actually heretical. Most analogies are.

Well telling somebody to go and reason with there self when there using circular reasoning against you, is my way of dealing with it.

And yes comparing the trinity to an egg is not much good, but people who argue the trinity is false may well have an egg head, as in my experience, circular reasoning used against me has always been down to people not believing me because they say I can't prove it.

So another example of meaningless chitter chatter in circular reasoning is when a person finds more than one conclusion to find favour over another conclusion that does not hold more premise , and just argues the toss all day long with a premise that isn't really important

That one is called the height of ignorance circular reasoning.


The fact is the three are one.