Church buildings

[NilsForChrist]

One question is, brethren and sisters... do we really need them?

We DO need assemblings, absolutely. But do they have to be in a church building? Can we not assemble anywhere wish to? The earliests Christians generally assembled at their houses. The persecution they endured certainly prevented them from having those buildings, yet spiritually they were more mature than most of us. It is important to go back there.

 

[Dino246]

…The persecution they endured certainly prevented them from having those buildings, yet spiritually they were more mature than most of us. It is important to go back there.

Your conclusion does not follow logically. Spiritual maturity does not come about by meeting in homes.

 

[ResidentAlien]

No, we don't really need them, but they can be useful. Everyone always knows where activities will be held; it's a lot more convenient for people to get to the same location if possible. I believe church buildings should be modest, nothing fancy. The building should help the congregation, not make their lives more difficult. A congregation shouldn't be enslaved to their building though; there's nothing that says people can't meet in homes for certain activities, or parks when the weather's nice. This can lessen utility bills.

On the other hand, they're the source of all kinds of problems if people put too much emphasis on their buildings and not the flock or the gospel. Big fancy buildings do the congregations a disservice really. Massive amounts of money are necessary to keep them running and the congregation are the ones footing the bill. And in my experience, megachurches aren't really so much about the congregation, but about putting butts in the seats and raking in more cash.

 

[Subhumanoidal]

One question is, brethren and sisters... do we really need them?

We DO need assemblings, absolutely. But do they have to be in a church building? Can we not assemble anywhere wish to? The earliests Christians generally assembled at their houses. The persecution they endured certainly prevented them from having those buildings, yet spiritually they were more mature than most of us. It is important to go back there.

Well a lot of people have home churches, so that is happening.

But it's also important to consider changes that have occurred since then. Population growth, travel distances, etc...
People mostly don't live in small villages or towns where everything is in walking distance and they can walk safely down a street to the local house church.
Consider the number of people that can attend a church. From a few dozen to 1000s. And how many of those people in the congregation are capable and willing to put in the time and effort to invite strangers into their homes for hours at a time every week. As well as be in a position to teach and preach. Enough to break up a church of 1000+ people and split them into groups of 10 to 20?
1000s and 1000s of home groups spread out, independently operating, holds no accountability.
Home churches worked well for the time. And that some people still do them is no bad thing. I have entertained the idea of going to one myself, before. But in the modern era it's not practical.
I do wish megachurches weren't a thing, though. Keeping churches smaller does seem more ideal, in my opinion. But people are going to do what they do.
The Church does need to keep it's biblical standards firm. But also be able to change it's approach to suit the current state of their environment and culture.

 

[Eli1]

One question is, brethren and sisters... do we really need them?

We DO need assemblings, absolutely. But do they have to be in a church building? Can we not assemble anywhere wish to? The earliests Christians generally assembled at their houses. The persecution they endured certainly prevented them from having those buildings, yet spiritually they were more mature than most of us. It is important to go back there.

I got a better idea so you can go back to true original dedication which inspired early followers to do what Christ did in the dessert for 40 days.
Become a monk!

 

[Maintenanceguy]

There are lots of home churches. There are also lots of churches meeting in rented meeting space, school gyms, barns, and community rec centers. One near us meets in a car dealerships show room. The church is the people, not the building.

Having a dedicated building makes many things easier but meeting in someone's home is perfectly fine.

 

[NilsForChrist]

There are lots of home churches. There are also lots of churches meeting in rented meeting space, school gyms, barns, and community rec centers. One near us meets in a car dealerships show room. The church is the people, not the building.

Having a dedicated building makes many things easier but meeting in someone's home is perfectly fine.

I agree.

 

[Artios1]

I haven’t set foot in a structured church (to worship) for over 40 years ...other than being invited to teach at several ...but that’s it.


While Dino is correct “spiritual maturity doesn’t come about by meeting in homes” ....But I would add ......it doesn’t come about by meeting in a church building either.

Maturity comes about by learning, walking & living the Truth... And I would argue that home fellowships are the sweetest fellowship this side of the 1st century there is.

It’s where a coordinator of a fellowship can work one on one... to meet the needs, bless individuals lives, teach the Truth, and love them into living ..... Something that is not reasonably available in a large congregation.


It should be structured to the degree of having a knowledgeable and competent teacher/leader....designated days & times ....along with others who will assist with refreshments songs/music set-up ...outings ...whatever.....

And when the fellowship becomes too large for a specific home (around 20 or so)........ it splits.....And a believer who has risen up with the love, desire, knowledge ...and willingness to serve ...takes the lead at another home location. And thus continues the growth and maturity of believers....in concert with the movement of God’s word...

As growth takes place ..... (and it will.... as long as love is central) ...God will raise up those to oversee, coordinate, and serve in a greater capacity of responsibility.... whether it be a town, area, region.....etc.... Our job is to plant and water... God's job is to give the increase.

We (the body of Christ) are the church of God. God does not reside in structures built with hands ...we, in this age of grace are the holy naos.

 

[SomeDisciple]

I think the jews would build a synagogue once a community got to 12 men- that seems pretty reasonable; since if they all get married and have a kid that's a lot of people for somebody to host at their house. At some point it's just more practical to have a facility that's dedicated to the purpose of assembly.
I wouldn't say it's "important" to not have a building any more than I would say it important for the church to be persecuted. It is possible to put too much emphasis on a building, though.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

One question is, brethren and sisters... do we really need them?

We DO need assemblings, absolutely. But do they have to be in a church building? Can we not assemble anywhere wish to? The earliests Christians generally assembled at their houses. The persecution they endured certainly prevented them from having those buildings, yet spiritually they were more mature than most of us. It is important to go back there.

I just think that it's not necessarily safe though - especially if strangers can come in and check out the layout of the home and what valuables it has. Also if the person living there lives alone or the family is somehow vulnerable, etc. etc.

A dedicated church building would be better for safety because other people won't know where you live and what is in it.

Also I know some people think it's frivolous but if your church can expand to have it's own school with gymnasium, that's great too. I remember when I was a young adult and wanted to go out and celebrate New Year's Eve, my church would open it's doors all night so that we can have fun without the debauchery. It's also a great place for informal Bible studies, etc. and just a great place for Christians to get together without any grief from unbelievers.


🛰️

 

[Brasspen]

I too agree that the church is the people, it's the body. Looking at the book of Acts, the epostles did not do their work at a church. They visited churches, but they did not run their ministry from one.
Later in the letters we see them talking about churches.

I think a church can be used as a location for the needy to visit. A designated place for the captives to get hear the word of God.

I was at church run by Doctor Pat Holliday. She said God brings the people to her. She does not have to go out from the church.

 

[JohnRH]

1000s and 1000s of home groups spread out, independently operating, holds no accountability.

Accountability to who?

 

[Subhumanoidal]

Accountability to who?

Anyone. They are free to teach anything they choose and there's no one to correct them or out them.
That's why so many cults start as home churches. No one is paying attention to what they preach until they become big enough to be noticed, and by then it's too late.
I did, once, go to a home church a few times. It was ran by the brother of an old friend I had done street witnessing with in the past.
By the third visit I was so furious with what they were saying and doing I blew up and stormed out. Mind you I was about 16 and still knew things weren't right there.
I began telling people, Christian friends, what had happened there. A few months later my old friend, a grown man, another grown man and the one person I befriended there, who was a new Christian and didnt know anything, showed up at my door, at night, complaining I was talking bad about their home church. It was clear they were there to intimidate me to shut up.
The next time I called that new Christian I befriended, he told me the home church told him he was not allowed to have anything more to do with me. I could hear the struggle in his voice over this decision. He clearly didn't agree, but not knowing any better he did as he was told.
Now mind you when I spoke about the home church I didn't just go around saying they were bad, but I gave examples of my actual personal experiences and pretty much everyone drew their own conclusions. And every conclusion was negative against the home church.
They got away with this for years. No accountability. Until they convinced a 16 year old girl to run away from home and live with them. The reason? Her Christian parents didn't like what was going on at the church and wanted her to stop going. Not stop church, just that home church.
Obviously this lead to authorities stepping in and taking the girl back home. And the home church got put on a cult watch.
So in short this home church sent grown men to intimidate a 16 year old for sharing their experiences. Banned an adult man from talking to me, for the same reason. And got a 16 year old girl to run away from her Christian home because her parents didn't like the church. And that's just the stuff I knew about, which is little.
Also the old friend of mine had started going to my church. I hadn't been able to go as much, so he went a few weeks that I didn't know of.
After a few weeks he stood up during Sunday morning service, interrupting the whole thing, and claimed that a "prophetess", that remained nameless, told him that the pastor was stealing money from the church. I believe more was also said against him.
As a result the church literally split in half, and half of them quit.
Sadly most of the ones that quit were long time members. And not just long time members, but members who volunteered their time and talents to literally help build the church building. And I've no idea if he did this anywhere else, but I have to assume so.
No accountability for his actions or for the home church he was connected to.

 

[JohnRH]

Anyone. They are free to teach anything they choose

I hope so!

and there's no one to correct them

That's quite an assertion.

or out them.

I'm not sure what that means, but when you left that church, weren't you 'outing' them?

The JW's, Mormons, Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, etc. all have/had buildings. Jim Jones' large congregation had accountability. When a member dozed off during a service, they physically hit the guy. (This was before they moved to South America and REALLY had accountability).

A small, independent, assembly can be a very godly group that is in agreement (koinonia) with what they teach and lovingly correct those among them who are in error. They're accountable to one another.

 

[Ballaurena]

Your conclusion does not follow logically. Spiritual maturity does not come about by meeting in homes.

My experience is quite the opposite. I didn't have nearly the growth until God took me to a house Church.

One thing critics of house churches on this page seem to miss is that all churches are independent groups that need to be vetted, and we always need to be looking for God's lead whether it's to a house Church or other.

As for the complaint that they aren't accountable to anyone, are not all churches accountable to God? If you're accountability is to anyone else you have a problem no matter the location or size of your gathering.

And no, you don't need a designated leader. Holy spirit is perfectly capable of leading, though it can take time for people to unlearn old, unbiblical patterns of a priest/entertainment model that ignores the universality of the Holy Spirit's availability and the need for all parts of the body to be utilized to edify the church (1 Corinthians 12). Frank Viola has written extensively on the history of how we got here in the book Pagan Christianity that is well worth a read, as well as several books on house church, though I have not read the latter myself. I did listen to an interview with him about one of them on the Cold Case Christianity podcast, though, which can be found here (Link will open Spotify app).

You do need spiritual elders, however, to keep things on track. Biblically speaking an elder is just a mature Christian. You also need a biblical shepherd to guard against the wolves, but this is very different from our modern idea of 'pastor.' In my house church at God's directive Jesus is our shepherd, though I would not assume that for every group. I can't say I fully understand the role since Jesus certainly does more than that for our fellowship, but it is something to seek God on rather than defaulting to common definition.

Oh, also of note, God indicated to our fellowship that when starting a house church, it is improper to start it in your own home since this tends to make us think it is our church instead of God's.

As for the concern of someone previewing how they might rob someone's house, that only makes sense if you are assuming it's a drop in church like big churches usually are. House churches tend to be much more personal places where you either know everybody who's coming already, or someone you know well is the person inviting them. Furthermore, why are we leaving God out of the equation? We should not be foolish but faith in God means trusting Him enough not to live in fear, especially when it comes to furthering his Kingdom.

 

[Hakawaka]

One question is, brethren and sisters... do we really need them?

We DO need assemblings, absolutely. But do they have to be in a church building? Can we not assemble anywhere wish to? The earliests Christians generally assembled at their houses. The persecution they endured certainly prevented them from having those buildings, yet spiritually they were more mature than most of us. It is important to go back there.

We don't need church buildings and no such things exist in the new testament. We do need assembly of believers as you said.

The only reason people started to have dedicated church buildings I believe is because there were simply too many people to meet at someone's house, so it makes natural sense.

That and Christianity became state religion in the roman empire, boy what a mistake that was!

 

[Hakawaka]

Anyone. They are free to teach anything they choose and there's no one to correct them or out them.
That's why so many cults start as home churches. No one is paying attention to what they preach until they become big enough to be noticed, and by then it's too late.
I did, once, go to a home church a few times. It was ran by the brother of an old friend I had done street witnessing with in the past.
By the third visit I was so furious with what they were saying and doing I blew up and stormed out. Mind you I was about 16 and still knew things weren't right there.
I began telling people, Christian friends, what had happened there. A few months later my old friend, a grown man, another grown man and the one person I befriended there, who was a new Christian and didnt know anything, showed up at my door, at night, complaining I was talking bad about their home church. It was clear they were there to intimidate me to shut up.
The next time I called that new Christian I befriended, he told me the home church told him he was not allowed to have anything more to do with me. I could hear the struggle in his voice over this decision. He clearly didn't agree, but not knowing any better he did as he was told.
Now mind you when I spoke about the home church I didn't just go around saying they were bad, but I gave examples of my actual personal experiences and pretty much everyone drew their own conclusions. And every conclusion was negative against the home church.
They got away with this for years. No accountability. Until they convinced a 16 year old girl to run away from home and live with them. The reason? Her Christian parents didn't like what was going on at the church and wanted her to stop going. Not stop church, just that home church.
Obviously this lead to authorities stepping in and taking the girl back home. And the home church got put on a cult watch.
So in short this home church sent grown men to intimidate a 16 year old for sharing their experiences. Banned an adult man from talking to me, for the same reason. And got a 16 year old girl to run away from her Christian home because her parents didn't like the church. And that's just the stuff I knew about, which is little.
Also the old friend of mine had started going to my church. I hadn't been able to go as much, so he went a few weeks that I didn't know of.
After a few weeks he stood up during Sunday morning service, interrupting the whole thing, and claimed that a "prophetess", that remained nameless, told him that the pastor was stealing money from the church. I believe more was also said against him.
As a result the church literally split in half, and half of them quit.
Sadly most of the ones that quit were long time members. And not just long time members, but members who volunteered their time and talents to literally help build the church building. And I've no idea if he did this anywhere else, but I have to assume so.
No accountability for his actions or for the home church he was connected to.

Do you honestly believe this? The big churches are the MOST wicked, so apparently it does not have anything to do with "ACCOUNTABILITY". The catholic church is extremely authoritarian, or was rather and guess what, they are probably the WORST church. Full of idolatry.

I could go down the list of all major denominations, all are in absolute apostasy.

 

[Subhumanoidal]

I hope so!

That's quite an assertion.

I'm not sure what that means, but when you left that church, weren't you 'outing' them?

The JW's, Mormons, Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, etc. all have/had buildings. Jim Jones' large congregation had accountability. When a member dozed off during a service, they physically hit the guy. (This was before they moved to South America and REALLY had accountability).

A small, independent, assembly can be a very godly group that is in agreement (koinonia) with what they teach and lovingly correct those among them who are in error. They're accountable to one another.

But they didn't all Start Off in large buildings, which was my point.
And you think it's good that the leaders have zero accountability for what they teach? Like the home church I spoke about, that you avoided responding to?
I did speak about them, but did it do any good? Did anyone step in after hearing this? Nope. It continued until they broke the law after brainwashing a 16 year old girl.
You consider striking church members for sleeping accountability?

And why are you treating it as if I said all home churches are bad? I clearly stated that they were not and that I, myself, had considered going to one (even after my first experience with one).
But alas this is the BDF. All to often people are eager to twist words, or ignore them, to create an argument. Never to listen and understand.

This has been a good reminder why I tend to avoid posting here, or responding to BDF regulars in other parts of the site they pop up.

 

[Subhumanoidal]

Do you honestly believe this? The big churches are the MOST wicked, so apparently it does not have anything to do with "ACCOUNTABILITY". The catholic church is extremely authoritarian, or was rather and guess what, they are probably the WORST church. Full of idolatry.

I could go down the list of all major denominations, all are in absolute apostasy.

Another post avoiding much of what I've said to focus only on what they want to argue about. Another good reminder why I avoid the BDF.

 

[JohnRH]

But they didn't all Start Off in large buildings, which was my point.
And you think it's good that the leaders have zero accountability for what they teach? Like the home church I spoke about, that you avoided responding to?
I did speak about them, but did it do any good? Did anyone step in after hearing this? Nope. It continued until they broke the law after brainwashing a 16 year old girl.
You consider striking church members for sleeping accountability?

And why are you treating it as if I said all home churches are bad? I clearly stated that they were not and that I, myself, had considered going to one (even after my first experience with one).
But alas this is the BDF. All to often people are eager to twist words, or ignore them, to create an argument. Never to listen and understand.

This has been a good reminder why I tend to avoid posting here, or responding to BDF regulars in other parts of the site they pop up.

It sounds like you did the right thing getting out. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 2 Cor 6:17