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This discussion is very difficult to make a point without actual sound bytes. There is a clear distinction in modern music between music that is dark-sounding or just wild sounding melodies. If a person can not hear this, that is a bit scary, but it's not a moral judgment, just a strong commentary on a music style that I only support on a limited basis;
I definitely apologize for my judgmental tone making a sweeping stereotypal judgment of all hard-core rock music without hearing it. I don't know what kind of music you are listening too.
The enemies of God are subtle-- if you rely on your own understanding, and say, "I've listened to this for 25 years, and it's ok in my book," that's a little dangerous. "Lean not on your own understanding." (verse?)
As Christians, we're supposed to be a team-- wingman for each other. Didn't you watch Top Gun?
Lead guitar by nature, not to mention bass and drums, can be intrusive and disturbing to positive worship. Someone's personal music is different obviously. One example is a church I have visited several times over a few years. The church attendance seems to be dropping, and I think one reason is that they play the same old rock songs-- some are good for worship, some aren't. You have to focus on the ones that lead to a positive worship experience, i.e., they are 1) easy to sing; 2) in the voice range of the people; 3) have a positive, upbeat sound that is not intrusive or disturbing. Without discernment, rock music can just be noise that doesn't belong in worship. Does this MATTER?? It does if you want people to come to your church! You can have lot's of music talent, and if you are playing the wrong songs, you lose it-- But, i agree with the person who said that any kind of music can become idolatry, not just hard core metal/rock, etc...
But, the discussion was not mainly about worship music. If the discussion is just about being infallible because "everyone is doing it," that's not a very positive experience.
To make a simple point-- a few songs off hand that are good for worship and that have a driving beat, and tempered rock sound are:
1) "Lead me to the Cross," Hillsong
2) "Until the Whole World Hears-- Casting Crowns; (this song is a modern music/rock masterpiece for Christian music-- they don't get any better; I rest my case on this song)
3) "Blessed Be Your Name-- Newsboys; (This is another classic modern rock Christian masterpiece-- they don't get any better)
And for quiet worship-- "Bless the Lord --10,000 Reasons" Matt Redman
I definitely apologize for my judgmental tone making a sweeping stereotypal judgment of all hard-core rock music without hearing it. I don't know what kind of music you are listening too.
The enemies of God are subtle-- if you rely on your own understanding, and say, "I've listened to this for 25 years, and it's ok in my book," that's a little dangerous. "Lean not on your own understanding." (verse?)
As Christians, we're supposed to be a team-- wingman for each other. Didn't you watch Top Gun?
Lead guitar by nature, not to mention bass and drums, can be intrusive and disturbing to positive worship. Someone's personal music is different obviously. One example is a church I have visited several times over a few years. The church attendance seems to be dropping, and I think one reason is that they play the same old rock songs-- some are good for worship, some aren't. You have to focus on the ones that lead to a positive worship experience, i.e., they are 1) easy to sing; 2) in the voice range of the people; 3) have a positive, upbeat sound that is not intrusive or disturbing. Without discernment, rock music can just be noise that doesn't belong in worship. Does this MATTER?? It does if you want people to come to your church! You can have lot's of music talent, and if you are playing the wrong songs, you lose it-- But, i agree with the person who said that any kind of music can become idolatry, not just hard core metal/rock, etc...
But, the discussion was not mainly about worship music. If the discussion is just about being infallible because "everyone is doing it," that's not a very positive experience.
To make a simple point-- a few songs off hand that are good for worship and that have a driving beat, and tempered rock sound are:
1) "Lead me to the Cross," Hillsong
2) "Until the Whole World Hears-- Casting Crowns; (this song is a modern music/rock masterpiece for Christian music-- they don't get any better; I rest my case on this song)
3) "Blessed Be Your Name-- Newsboys; (This is another classic modern rock Christian masterpiece-- they don't get any better)
And for quiet worship-- "Bless the Lord --10,000 Reasons" Matt Redman
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zaoman32
Guest
If remember right it states explicitly in the bible to praise God with LOUD CLASHING CYMBALS. In the entire bible there is absolutely no mention of of any kind of instrument being disturbing or intrusive for worship, that is your own personal opinion, as well as the personal opinions of the people at this one single church you are pointing out. Where is our mission field? In the church? How are we supposed to minister to people about God that still refuse to come into church because they've already been judged by what color their hair is, or whether or not they have tattoos or what kind of music they listen to. How do you expect these non-christians that are metal-heads to hear a positive Christ-centered message when they love music, and (supposing no christian metal bands existed) the only message of music they're hearing is that of death, depression, and santanism. Do you really expect these people to see a Hillsong CD one day and go, "This looks pretty hardcore, I think I'll give it a spin" and all of the sudden they'll hear one song and change their lives forever? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! Thank God there are bands out there like Living Sacrifice, and Extol, and Becoming the Archetype that can meet these music fans on their level, and rather than offer depression, they offer hope, rather than death, they offer life, and rather than Satanism, they offer Christ. I thank God that I am able to work at a place where the majority of co-workers I have listen to the same style I do, so when I know they're going through a difficult time I can say, "check this out". It's the music they know, only with a message that might actually help them get through whatever issues it is they may have.
Do you want to know why the church is in a steady decline? Do you want to know why people are leaving in droves? It sure as heck has nothing to do with the fact that there is a drum set on stage. It has to do with the fact that there are 1.) Hypocrites all over the place calling themselves Christians telling people one thing and very obviously doing the opposite. 2.) The health and wealth gospel that preaches "If you trust in Jesus you will be rich, and healthy, if your not rich and healthy you must be unrighteous. and 3.) Judgmental christians who stare down their nose at anything they don't like and condemn it just because they don't like it. Condemning loud music because you think it's wrong DRIVES PEOPLE AWAY.
If you going to pull out one single scripture on us that has absolutely no relevance to your argument, just refer to the one I gave you at the beginning of this post. LOUD CLASHING CYMBALS. At no single point in the scriptures does it describe praise to God as being anything but loud. "If these people keep quiet, then even the rocks will CRY OUT", not my words, Jesus' words. If you don't like metal, then fine, go your way, but don't you dare try to hold people back from God's kingdom by condemning what speaks to them regardless of what you think of it. At no point in the bible is any style of music considered wrong, and at no point in the bible is loud music stated as being disturbing. In fact it's just the opposite.
Do you want to know why the church is in a steady decline? Do you want to know why people are leaving in droves? It sure as heck has nothing to do with the fact that there is a drum set on stage. It has to do with the fact that there are 1.) Hypocrites all over the place calling themselves Christians telling people one thing and very obviously doing the opposite. 2.) The health and wealth gospel that preaches "If you trust in Jesus you will be rich, and healthy, if your not rich and healthy you must be unrighteous. and 3.) Judgmental christians who stare down their nose at anything they don't like and condemn it just because they don't like it. Condemning loud music because you think it's wrong DRIVES PEOPLE AWAY.
If you going to pull out one single scripture on us that has absolutely no relevance to your argument, just refer to the one I gave you at the beginning of this post. LOUD CLASHING CYMBALS. At no single point in the scriptures does it describe praise to God as being anything but loud. "If these people keep quiet, then even the rocks will CRY OUT", not my words, Jesus' words. If you don't like metal, then fine, go your way, but don't you dare try to hold people back from God's kingdom by condemning what speaks to them regardless of what you think of it. At no point in the bible is any style of music considered wrong, and at no point in the bible is loud music stated as being disturbing. In fact it's just the opposite.
'Lead guitar by nature, not to mention bass and drums, can be intrusive and disturbing to positive worship.'
What?
It is the spirit of the matter.
God uses the heart of worship.
Not the heart of sound.
What?
It is the spirit of the matter.
God uses the heart of worship.
Not the heart of sound.
Not every loud noise makes people cut themselves.
There is a state of zero gain from the patented, placid 'worship' that can just as easily lead people down a soft
road of non-devotion. - (Stand up, raise your hands, sit back down)
At least people making a loud noise crank it for the Lord.
And if it is in the flesh, or carnal; the Spirit testifies of that too.
There is a state of zero gain from the patented, placid 'worship' that can just as easily lead people down a soft
road of non-devotion. - (Stand up, raise your hands, sit back down)
At least people making a loud noise crank it for the Lord.
And if it is in the flesh, or carnal; the Spirit testifies of that too.
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Ugly
Guest
Bible also says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. You're really being a bit insulting when you question my ability to make a decision for myself after 25 years and automatically dismissing it as 'my own understanding'. Obviously, you missed the point, that after 25 years of me listening to the music i do, i have felt no guilt, regret, doubt, or reason to pause. God has not given me any reason to think its wrong. Its not just 'my own understanding'. In fact, there are things i have stopped or cut back on because i did see a negative reaction from listening to it. So before you accuse me of 25 years of selfish, Godlessly based decisions you may want to find out some facts, since you really don't know the first thing about me.
Another issue is i don't listen to music solely for the sake of worship. Sometimes i just like to enjoy music for musics sake. So i don't worry about 'distractions' in my music. And if something is going to bring me in a worshipful mood, no matter the style, then i'm not likely to actually get distracted by solo's or anything. That may be true for you, or for some others, but not for me.
Lastly, i can't stand CCM, nor can i stand this new 'style' of psuedo-worship like Hillsong. Personally, when i seek out worshipful music i prefer stripped down and simple. I hate this all professional musicians with a wild light show like some pop concert in the name of worship, like Hillsong. CCM is also very boring and trite and uninspired and does nothing to move me into worship most of the time. The 'evil' Christian metal i listen to does more to lead me to think on God, pray, worship etc than the 'holy' CCM.
Bottom line i'm not basing my worship on your list, or anyone elses, on 'worship must have this, can't have this'. I base it on what leads me to worship regardless of others rules.
Also, i don't believe i ever ever ever once uttered the words 'everyone else is doing it'. So why you would say that is beyond me. Now you're trying to argue against me with words i never said, or even implied. Fact is, the music i listen to is not very popular and not 'everyone' is listening to it. The music you have listed is more trendy and popular and fits more with the 'everyone else is doing it'. So i find it funny you try to put that label on me, when in reality that totally define the mainstream trendy music you are pointing out.
Can't help but feel a bit insulted and an element of being judged and accused by some of what you say. I think i am done with this discussion and being left feeling that way and having words put in my mouth.
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sweetspiritgirl
Guest
Im sorry did you just kick God out of his throne..who crowned u king ? Did u comune with God did he say i dont like the metal..sorry hun music is music..its the heart and the worship that plzes him ..sad thing how the old generation puts God in a box.. I hear matal music that makes me wanan glorify God even more so before judging and picking out what God likes or dislikes u better be standing at his right...If you like christian rap or metal or whatever style ..rem,ember God loves music and worship and when u do it on to him he loves it..God loves variety ..we see that in all the things he made.. I do have to say as a person who is a prayer warrior thou ...when u do listen to metal that isnt about God and worshiping him there is demonic forces behind it...Im not even going to go into that ..just use wisdom and disernment..but if u do like metal ..theres christian metal bands too..
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OFM
Guest
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Syphon
Guest
l..sorry hun music is music..its the heart and the worship that plzes him ..sad thing how the old generation puts God in a box.....God loves variety ..we see that in all the things he made.. I do have to say as a person who is a prayer warrior thou ...when u do listen to metal that isnt about God and worshiping him there is demonic forces behind it...Im not even going to go into that ..just use wisdom and disernment..but if u do like metal ..theres christian metal bands too..
this is a good summary of the discussion. there's no point in this unless we have some sound bytes so each person knows what the other person is talking about. I might suggest though that if you, (the lady here) who listens to this music, which I don't, that this gives more focus to the discussion. I said before that I'm not making a moral judgment on anyone because of this-- the subject touched a nerve, because I played in a rock band in the 70's and was forced to play certain songs that i didn't feel fit into the style of music I wanted to play. Like songs with three chords that repeated in a weird chanting "vain repetitions" pattern. it was hypnotic, and, like some kind of dark-chant that I felt, like the nice lady here said, had a demonic sound to it, it disturbed me, and freaked me out. And, there was actually one instance on stage where something demonic seemed to happen. Both this lady here, and myself, seem to have this discernment regarding this.
So, I think there is a danger here, not necessarily with anyone here, but, maybe to people who are more susceptible, such as myself.
Again, I have no idea whatsoever what everyone is listening to. The person who was offended even said he had removed some stuff from his collection. This sister here just made a statement that she has run into issues with secular stuff, just like I did with music with a certain "sound" to it. I would argue that putting Christian words to something may or may not solve the danger. Like I said, we are talking about the air here, just guessing what everyone is talking about.
This is not meant to judge anyone's music, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to do that without listening to it. But, I think it's safe to say, that it is also IMPOSSIBLE to make a blanket statement that there's no problem at all. Just like my statement that it's all bad, was not realistic either.
this is what discernment is all about,and it applies to all areas of life, not just music.
and the 19 year old there that commented on ANY style of music can become an idol-- that's pretty good for a 19 year old, I have to say-- and this isn't directed towards metal music, but, anything in life can become an idol, and it doesn't sound like that is happening to anyone here--
Country music can become an idol--
Folk songs can become an idol--
Beethovens 5th can become an idol--
Arguing in a chat forum can become an idol--
Watching TV can become an idol--
Church can become an idol--
Celebrity worship can become an idol--
idols can become idols--
Sports can become idols--
Playing guitar in the living room-- yeah...that too;
I think that's about it...
Maybe the things I did or didn't do when I was younger--not necessarily music--that's why I rant in chat rooms at 4:00AM at my age-- so, it does matter;
My advice to younger people is-- forget the rat-race, materialism college nonsense; it just withers your heart, Universities have screwed up more people than you can imagine-- they burn out, and money can't buy enough-- like King Solomon; he had EVERYTHING the world could offer, and he was miserable.
If you can't find Jesus in your music-- get rid of it; any kind of music--
so, let's be on the lookout for idols--it seems to be a recurring problem since the Israelites--
NO ONE IS JUDGING YOU FOR YOUR MUSIC--JUST DISCUSSING MUSIC!!
sheesh...
I'm not understanding why you think I was judging you personally or insulting you. I'm sorry if you took it that way. I was not trying to put words in your mouth. It sounds like you enjoy worship music that is not just style or trendy-- this are helpful feedback for people that might want to look for a style of worship music for themselves. This is what a chat forum is all about, to discuss the issues. It sounds like you have a good heart for God, and you are accepted by the Christian community for who you are in Christ. No one is judging you for your music preferences. Don't let this discussion discourage you or depress you-- I was asked to lighten up, and, I think I'm being pretty objective here. Everyone, including yourself, made good, in-depth summaries of the subject. For some reason, this subject touched a nerve across generations, although, for various reasons, I'm a lot younger in my inner psych than 54, and don't consider myself a "parent-figure", here, but just a fellow musician. Maybe I never completely resolved the rock-band fights we had in high school over music. And, I did lose a job over someone else's music preferences. So, why doesn't everyone just forgive it all, and try to lighten up if the discussion continues.
Well, first off, I'm a metal artist. I would love to disclaim to all of you that I am not satanic and calling me so or telling me that I am is a completely unfair and uncalled for judgement. I find this also quite funny, as there bands such as Gojira which pride themselves on environmentalist and uplifting lyrics. Only someone with closed ears and a judgmental heart would think such a thing.
I do love Metal, not all of it. If you want to see 'Satanic Metal' go look up Black Metal because we metal heads have long separated the nut cases and the maniacs that you people judge us for. If that is all your seeing, you are looking in the wrong place - obviously.
You may also love to know that 'satanic' or 'demonic' bands come in all shapes and forms. Most notoriously so is Chicago, who actually has several satanic chants and prayers to the devils embedded in their tracks.
If you don't like the genre, that is your own opinion - I don't judge you for that. However, if you judge me - expect it to get very nasty as I do know what I'm talking about.
Just looking in this thread at some posts has lowered my respect for the people on this site just a little, I can't believe a place with so many nice people would have so many sour eggs.
I do love Metal, not all of it. If you want to see 'Satanic Metal' go look up Black Metal because we metal heads have long separated the nut cases and the maniacs that you people judge us for. If that is all your seeing, you are looking in the wrong place - obviously.
You may also love to know that 'satanic' or 'demonic' bands come in all shapes and forms. Most notoriously so is Chicago, who actually has several satanic chants and prayers to the devils embedded in their tracks.
If you don't like the genre, that is your own opinion - I don't judge you for that. However, if you judge me - expect it to get very nasty as I do know what I'm talking about.
Just looking in this thread at some posts has lowered my respect for the people on this site just a little, I can't believe a place with so many nice people would have so many sour eggs.
Sorry, what was the evil vibe you got from Wintersun? Just curious. I got my album back out thinking maybe I missed something but reading over the lyrics... It's not Christian but I don't see the evil vibe angle. I just got their new album today ^_^ And it's awesome (Land of Snow and Sorrow has been on repeat all day. Whole album is way too short though). Couldn't find anything wrong with the lyrics on this one either... I actually thought they're lyrics are quite poetic compared to most folky metal stuff. Just curious... not looking to debate or argue but I was just a little befuddled.
Oh.. And Crowbar isn't bad... when it comes to the harsh vocals, I prefer more melodic melodies in the music and Crowbar doesn't seem to have em much. With more harsher music, I prefer cleaner or harmonious vocals or some of that in there somewhere. I like a balance
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Oh yeah another of my favorites in that folky melodic power metal vibe like Wintersun and such is Amorphis... saw them with Nightwish earlier this year and they were awesome ^_^ They've moved away from the harsh vocal stuff but they're still good.
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U
Ugly
Guest
Ultimately the 'sound bites' concept is useless. I think we can all agree there is some metal that is blatantly satanic in its nature based off the artists and lyrics. So, sound bites for that is useless. The thing with Christian metal is that lyrically they fall under all sorts of categories. Some Christian bands are very direct and upfront about their faith, some are more minister to the unsaved, some are more worshipful, and some are just clean lyrics that may not always be very spiritual, but also have nothing bad either. Some may be more topical as well. Quite a bit of variation out there.
I did post a few videos on page 2 though. These are of the more bold lyrically variety.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnBUiGnGbD0[/video]
I did post a few videos on page 2 though. These are of the more bold lyrically variety.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnBUiGnGbD0[/video]
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zaoman32
Guest
Sorry, what was the evil vibe you got from Wintersun? Just curious. I got my album back out thinking maybe I missed something but reading over the lyrics... It's not Christian but I don't see the evil vibe angle. I just got their new album today ^_^ And it's awesome (Land of Snow and Sorrow has been on repeat all day. Whole album is way too short though). Couldn't find anything wrong with the lyrics on this one either... I actually thought they're lyrics are quite poetic compared to most folky metal stuff. Just curious... not looking to debate or argue but I was just a little befuddled.
Oh.. And Crowbar isn't bad... when it comes to the harsh vocals, I prefer more melodic melodies in the music and Crowbar doesn't seem to have em much. With more harsher music, I prefer cleaner or harmonious vocals or some of that in there somewhere. I like a balance
Different people get different vibes from different bands, it doesn't necessarily mean there's anything particularly wrong with their music or lyrics. There are very few non christian bands I can listen to anymore just because even with the stuff I used to listen I just get a bad feeling from, but I also know of people who are good christians that have absolutely no issue with listening to these same bands I can't listen to.
It's just kind of a personal discernment thing. Just because one person gets an evil vibe doesn't mean everyone else will get the same one.
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Ugly
Guest
Sorry, what was the evil vibe you got from Wintersun? Just curious. I got my album back out thinking maybe I missed something but reading over the lyrics... It's not Christian but I don't see the evil vibe angle. I just got their new album today ^_^ And it's awesome (Land of Snow and Sorrow has been on repeat all day. Whole album is way too short though). Couldn't find anything wrong with the lyrics on this one either... I actually thought they're lyrics are quite poetic compared to most folky metal stuff. Just curious... not looking to debate or argue but I was just a little befuddled.
Oh.. And Crowbar isn't bad... when it comes to the harsh vocals, I prefer more melodic melodies in the music and Crowbar doesn't seem to have em much. With more harsher music, I prefer cleaner or harmonious vocals or some of that in there somewhere. I like a balance
Its been many years now since i decided to avoid Wintersun. Though i generally don't listen to much secular music anyways, mostly if i do its stuff from my teens, and even then that's limited.
Yeah, i'm not so big on melodic. I like more 'in your face' stuff. But to each is own, that's part of what makes metal awesome, is the versatility in it not found in any other style of music.
Agree with you 110% there... I never listened to music till after I got out of high school to be honest. I stumbled upon Blind Guardian and Nightwish and went from there looking for others and found out their really was awesome music out there and metal wasn't all evil and satanic and there are so many different styles within it.
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teamventure
Guest
i used to be into metal and most of it's subgenres.
and the most satanic music i ever heard had no lyrics. it was in a nightmare i had.
and let me tell you that music in my dream made black metal sound like amazing grace.
so yes, the type of music matters not just the lyrics.
and the most satanic music i ever heard had no lyrics. it was in a nightmare i had.
and let me tell you that music in my dream made black metal sound like amazing grace.
so yes, the type of music matters not just the lyrics.
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Ugly
Guest
*sigh .. how did i know someone else would drag this stupid argument out now that it was finally dying off?