Christ is God

[trofimus]

One authority cannot be God of another authority.

But persons can.

 

[Noose]

One authority cannot be God of another authority.

But persons can.

Two persons can not be one being, the idea of authorities of God is over your head, you are no where near grasping it.

 

[trofimus]

Two persons can not be one being, the idea of authorities of God is over your head, you are no where near grasping it.

The idea of authorities of God is also over my bible.

How do you understand this verse with your oneness:

"The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."
Heb 1

 

[Noose]

The idea of authorities of God is also over my bible.

How do you understand this verse with your oneness:

"The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."
Heb 1

The son is the radiance of the Father/Son/Holy spirit's glory and the exact representation of their being, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Father/Son/Holy spirit.

Trinity debunked again right there. what do you say.

 

[NWL]

Prototokos can mean:
a) born as the first in a line
b) head, somebody who is over something, preeminent

The context of col 2:15 confirms its the b) meaning.

And he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Please, for the sake of argument expand on your meaning. Also for a few post now you've been citing Col 2:15, our discussion is about Col 1:15 not 2:15.

You defined firstborn as something/someone that is "born as the first in a line", in a line of what? Can you expand and give me an example?

You also defined it as the "head, somebody who is over something, preeminent", can you give me an example of this from the scriptures so I can better understand what you mean.

Also, where have you taken this definition from, is it sourced from somewhere or is it from your own understanding?

 

[trofimus]

The son is the radiance of the Father/Son/Holy spirit's glory and the exact representation of their being, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Father/Son/Holy spirit.

Trinity debunked again right there. what do you say.

You obviously changed "his being" into "their being".

So, you think that Majesty is Father. How can then Son be at the right hand of Father, if Son is Father?

 

[NWL]

God is not within time - He is 'ageless' - and Christ is the exact representation.

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” ​

(John 8:58)​

​

In the beginning God​

(Genesis 1:1) ​

God is 'before the beginning' -- in the beginning, He already 'is' -- before time, unfettered by time, without time, eternal, having no beginning.

In the beginning was the Word​

(John 1:1) ​

​

the Word 'was' in the beginning -- in the beginning, He already 'was' -- existing before the beginning, before time, unbound by time, without time, eternal.


having no beginning:

All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made.​

(John 1:3) ​

​

For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things were created through Him and for Him.​

(Colossians 1:16)​

nothing that was made was made except through Him and with Him and by Him. all things that are made, whether physical or nonphysical, in heaven or on earth, visible or invisible, tangible or intangible, all things are made by Him, through Him and for Him.
if He was made, He was made through Himself and with Himself and for Himself -- and by Himself.
if He was made, He made Himself using Himself for Himself with Himself by Himself.
He was not made:

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. ​

(Hebrews 13:8) ​

not changing, not aging, not different before a 'beginning' but self-existing before the beginning, before existence.
the same is said of God and of no other:

O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,​

Your years are throughout all generations.​

Of old You founded the earth,​

And the heavens are the work of Your hands.​

Even they will perish, but You endure;​

And all of them will wear out like a garment;​

Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.​

But You are the same,​

And Your years will not come to an end.​

(Psalm 102:25-27)​

I AM THAT I AM

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” ​

So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.​

(John 8:58-59)​

​

they immediately understood that He was calling Himself the Almighty, the Eternal Father, and picked up stones to throw at Him, because not believing, they were not at all uncertain that this was blasphemy.

As I've said and as scripture shows Jesus is a copy of the Father, I too believe Jesus was created outside outside time but he was still copied/created non the less.

As I've mentioned already on this thread, Jesus being 'in the beginning with God' (John 1:1) is not in reference to existing before the creation of time and matter, but rather, the genesis account.

Jesus words in John 6:57 are irrefutable, "[he] lives because of the Father", no eternal and almighty God can utter such a phrase and yet be God as you claim he is.

 

[Noose]

You obviously changed "his being" into "their being".

So, you think that Majesty is Father. How can then Son be at the right hand of Father, if Son is Father?

Yeah. was showing how ridiculous trinity is. God has no right or left hands because God is spirit.

 

[Noose]

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son can have the Father; whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

According to trinity understanding, the antichrist only denies the father (distinctly) and the son (distinctly) but doesn't deny the Holy spirit.
The verse seem to suggest different thing, he who denies Jesus has denied the Father and the son, no distinction.

 

[trofimus]

Yeah. was showing how ridiculous trinity is. God has no right or left hands because God is spirit.

So again to your oneness.

a) Is Father being?
b) what does that mean that Son is exact representation of Father's being
c) how can Son be at the right hand of Father, if they are just names for various roles

Please, answer.

 

[Noose]

So again to your oneness.

a) Is Father being?
b) what does that mean that Son is exact representation of Father's being
c) how can Son be at the right hand of Father, if they are just names for various roles

Please, answer.

a. Yes. The one who occupies that office is one being, His name is Jesus.
b. Yes. We who occupy the office of the son are a representation of the Father because we can do nothing for ourselves, the Father in us does His works, just like it was with Jesus when He occupied the office of the son.
c. Right hand is not a place. It means righteousness/ glory. It means the son is glorified

Any other question?

 

[trofimus]

a. Yes. The one who occupies that office is one being, His name is Jesus.
b. Yes. We who occupy the office of the son are a representation of the Father because we can do nothing for ourselves, the Father in us does His works, just like it was with Jesus when He occupied the office of the son.
c. Right hand is not a place. It means righteousness/ glory. It means the son is glorified

Any other question?

Yes.

a) Jesus is not the Majesty (Father), the text is clear in this. Your interpretation is therefore obviously wrong.
b) you did not explain the word "being"
c) do you believe that the Son has a body right now?

 

[Noose]

Yes.

a) Jesus is not the Majesty (Father), the text is clear in this. Your interpretation is therefore obviously wrong.
b) you did not explain the word "being"
c) do you believe that the Son has a body right now?

a. was a question about the Father being a being. Yes the Father is a being - something you have failed to answer when you have been asked previously. Is the Father a being according to you?
b. I was not to explain what a being means. I explained how the son is a representation of the Father
c. You are asking me if i have a body right now? what do you think

 

[Enoch987]

How do you know?

I have attended a Oneness church and Trinitarian churches. God answers prayers of both.
At the Oneness church, the pastor's daughter asked her father's wife (they married latter in life so I won't say it was her stepmom) by what spirit she received power?
This was funny because Trinitarians say the same of nonTrinitarians.
The main thing is to teach salvation correctly by faith in Jesus.

 

[trofimus]

a. was a question about the Father being a being. Yes the Father is a being - something you have failed to answer when you have been asked previously. Is the Father a being according to you?
b. I was not to explain what a being means. I explained how the son is a representation of the Father
c. You are asking me if i have a body right now? what do you think

I answered your question about this (if is this or that person is a being) 5 times, please find it in my posts, if you forgot what the answer was.

Wait, you do not believe that the Son, Jesus Christ, has a body now? The resurrected Jesus disappeaerd when he ascended in body to heaven and his body is gone?

 

[Enoch987]

How do you read the verse? You are still trying to run away from the application of your belief.

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Do you read it like:
Authority, who was God, did not consider equality with himself...?

I would think that Trinitarians have a problem since the ESV and King James read Jesus being in the form of God while NIV tries to hide the controversy with being in the very nature of God.
A form is having a body in the Bible.
If God is Spirit then how can he have a body.
If God is Spirit and the preexistent Jesus had body then Father God is Spirit but the Son is not.
Conclusion; The Son received the Spirit from the Father.

 

[Noose]

I would think that Trinitarians have a problem since the ESV and King James read Jesus being in the form of God while NIV tries to hide the controversy with being in the very nature of God.
A form is having a body in the Bible.
If God is Spirit then how can he have a body.
If God is Spirit and the preexistent Jesus had body then Father God is Spirit but the Son is not.
Conclusion; The Son received the Spirit from the Father.

They can not explain what they mean and their sources are extra-biblical.
Jesus on His own is one person and one being. If three persons in one being is to be believed, then it means the Father and the Holy spirit are not beings but they share one being with the son (somehow). If someone is not a being it means they don't exist at all.

 

[posthuman]

The main thing is to teach salvation correctly by faith in Jesus.

amen, to this


I hope none of the trinity discussion separates people; so long His divinity isn't doubted I'm just glad to see people talking it out

 

[trofimus]

I have attended a Oneness church and Trinitarian churches. God answers prayers of both.
At the Oneness church, the pastor's daughter asked her father's wife (they married latter in life so I won't say it was her stepmom) by what spirit she received power?
This was funny because Trinitarians say the same of nonTrinitarians.
The main thing is to teach salvation correctly by faith in Jesus.

Yes, its a main thing to teach salvation correctly by the correct faith in the correct Jesus.

Not heresies.

 

[trofimus]

amen, to this


I hope none of the trinity discussion separates people; so long His divinity isn't doubted I'm just glad to see people talking it out

You believe that somebody who believes that Jesus Christ does not exist now, is saved, just because he believes that Jesus was God?

For me, this is even worse than JW ideas, even though its hard which of these two heresies is worse.