Christ is God

[posthuman]

we should talk about nuclear physics

​

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made​

(Romans 1:20)​

for example:

Please study the baptism of Christ, which shows three distinct divine persons involved. Just like in your family the father cannot be the Son, so in the Godhead each divine Person is distinct, yet they are all one God. This is the Mystery of God, so human reason does not prevail.

there are unknowably many things about the nature of the universe that remain unknown to us. but one thing mankind has learned since the beginning of the 20th century is that the nature of matter is fundamentally more than one thing, yet one thing. all the matter and energy of the universe - "what has been made" - is seen to be made in a way that is counter to our human intuition: it is both particle, and wave simultaneously. whether it is observed as either form depends on how it is observed. it can take radically different appearance at the same time, even one atom appearing to be two atoms in different states in different places, as though separate, but actually one. one photon passes through two slits simultaneously as two photons yet remains one.
mankind learned this from studying light.

I AM the light of the world​

(John 8:12) ​

what the nature of the things that are made shows us is a profound image of this:

I and the Father are One ​

(John 10:30)​

​

which, besides being something the Jews recognized immediately as Christ claiming to be God because He is clearly stating positional equality with the Father, is also the Lord informing us that He is the LORD - because YHWH speaking through His prophet says His name is "One"

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name One. ​

(Zechariah 14:9)​

the particle and the wave are one substance, distinguishable by properties but indistinguishable in nature, not two things, but one thing, yet two things simultaneously one thing - beyond human understanding. and that's at least two things that each thing is: there are unknowably many unknowns in human knowledge.

 

[posthuman]

This is what Jesus says:

Rev 21:6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

amen,

Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last, and there is no God besides Me.
(Isaiah 44:6) ​

​

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
(Revelation 22:13) ​

Jesus says of Himself exactly what YHWH says of Himself: the Redeemer, One; there is no other.

Christ is God

 

[posthuman]

As alluded to earlier, Jesus is "exact representation of his [Gods] very being", God basically created a copy of himself (col 1:15, Rev 3:14). Since Jesus was exactly the same as God -but of course beneath him as he was a creation of God- he could have reasoned that he was equal with him, as Satan did and chose to challenge or demand worship, but he didn't but rather humbled himself.

None of this proves that Jesus is God.

actually i think it does.

the 'copy' you describe is exact according to the scripture you cite. therefore it is identical in every respect, by definition: every aspect, facet, quality, characteristic. one of the characteristics of God is that He is uncreated: before all things, another is that there is no other god before Him. Jesus being the exact representation of God means He exactly has these same qualities: the fullness of the Godhead dwelling bodily as a man, for He humbled Himself, setting aside His glory, for our sake, and for His glory, because all things are to Him and for His glory ((Romans 11:36)) - while simultaneously YHWH proclaims He does not share His glory with any other, Christ, being the exact representation/copy/likeness/form of YHWH likewise receives all glory and does not give it to another.
this is either contradictory or Christ and YHWH are One. therefore Jesus is God. Father, Son, One God.

excuse my human reasoning and way of speaking -- brothers should not separate over what is ((imho)) the inadequacy of human language, reason and perception. we perceive from the perspective of the frame in which we are created, and are constrained by time and knowledge in ways that the Creator of time and knowledge is not.

 

[JChesney]

what the nature of the things that are made shows us is a profound image of this:

I and the Father are One ​

(John 10:30)​

​

εγω και ο Πατερ εν εσμεν - I am wiht Father - one we are, - the word εσμεν it is verb in plural number, 1st person (= we are) .
The word εν do not mean "one and the same", here it is meant unity, as in Jn 11:52 - "and not only for the nation, but also for the scattered children of God, to gather them together into one" (εις εν), Jn 17:11 - "that they may be one (εν) as we are ", Jn 17:21-22 "that all of them may be one (εν ωσιν), as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. ... so that they may be one as We are one (ωσιν εν καθως ημεις εν)". It's word εν author of Gospel used for description of union unity.

which, besides being something the Jews recognized immediately as Christ claiming to be God because He is clearly stating positional equality with the Father, is also the Lord informing us that He is the LORD - because YHWH speaking through His prophet says His name is "

One"

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name One. ​

(Zechariah 14:9)​

the word "εν" (one) is not the name of God, it is mean that name of God one (not two or three names).

 

[GodisONE]

Please, stop your unchristian absurdities. You are getting close to blasphemy.

HOW, when Yeshua said it Himself that He IS NOT DOING/SPEAKING these things but the Father dwelling inside Him is doing these things?

you seem to hate reading scripture that proves you incorrect!!
you need to get over it and accept it because Yeshua said it Himself!!

10 Don't you believe that I am united with the Father, and the Father united with me? (((((What I am telling you, I am not saying on my own initiative; the Father living in me is doing his own works. )))))

***(((((What I am telling you, I am not saying on my own initiative; the Father living in me is doing his own works. )))))***

 

[trofimus]

I have answered and i will answer again but i feel sorry for you and many others who seeing can't perceive and hold on to a position that puts God down.



John 1:32Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.

That was not a literal speech from one to another, it is an understanding in the mind/spirit. An understanding within the authorities of God. Jesus doesn't need to be literally told He is loved because He already knows that (He says no one understands the Father except Him, He has explained Him Jhn 1:18), but it was animated (made almost physical) for your sake and me because we would eventually pick up the position of the son and when we finally do, we would understand that the Father (Jesus) loves us. In this case, it was animated for the sake of John as he himself said in the above verse.John was actually in the spirit- no one else heard that.

John was the one to identify and proclaim the appearance of the messiah and apart from Jesus, it is only John (Arguably) and no one else saw the dove and heard the voice.
Otherwise, the Father is the Holy spirit and are in the son.

I do not understand what you are saying. That it did not happen? What does it mean that it was animated (almost physical)?

Please, make much shorter and clearer answers. Also, I am talking about the gospel of Luke.

How does the Father get gloried? by the son accomplishing His will on earth which Jesus did. Jesus was praying not for Himself but for every believer because we are the sons and we glorify the Father and the Father has loved us before the foundations of the world.

It is the same thing here:

Jer 31:3 The LORD appeared to him from afar: “I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have drawn you with loving devotion. 4Again I will build you, and you will be rebuilt, O Virgin Israel.

This is the same thing Jesus said here:

John 17:
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Matters God are everlasting because God is everlasting. Again:

Psalms 103:17 But from everlasting to everlasting the loving devotion of the LORD extends to those who fear Him, and His righteousness to their children’s children—

So, we have given God glory not just now but before He founded the world because we fulfill His will which is everlasting.

Again, I have no idea what you just said. Maybe I am just stupid, I do not now. Can you give a shorter answer directed specifically on that verse?

Luke and Paul and all those people never thought or said three persons in one being, they knew better.

Thats where you lack the information, because you actually do not want to know what the first church believed. You work only with Bible, the Bible which you grabbed out of its context into which it was written.

 

[trofimus]

HOW, when Yeshua said it Himself that He IS NOT DOING/SPEAKING these things but the Father dwelling inside Him is doing these things?

you seem to hate reading scripture that proves you incorrect!!
you need to get over it and accept it because Yeshua said it Himself!!

10 Don't you believe that I am united with the Father, and the Father united with me? (((((What I am telling you, I am not saying on my own initiative; the Father living in me is doing his own works. )))))

***(((((What I am telling you, I am not saying on my own initiative; the Father living in me is doing his own works. )))))***

Your careless and almost blasphemious notes like "jesus is only a puppet" are really not what the Bible says. You should do a better job while reading Scriptures and while thinking about what you read in them.

 

[posthuman]

the word "εν" (one) is not the name of God, it is mean that name of God one (not two or three names).

i don't know these languages but this exact word form looks ubiquitously translated "whose name (is)" in a clearly nominative sense, with the exception of a descriptive use in Jeremiah 11:19 (('whose name not remembered anymore')), which could arguably be understood also as nominative in a poetic sense.

Englishman's Concordance ū·šə·mōw — 24 Occurrences

it literally reads, in that day this there shall be YHWH one whose name one

it is not as though there was ever, is ever, or will be ever more than one YHWH. in many places He says, He is God alone and there is no other God nor ever was or will be. what does 'there shall be' mean then? 'this' i believe; Adonai Elohenu Ehad ♥

just to say, i understand how you read it, do you understand how i read it? and that i don't think the text itself definitively shows your reading or mine - though as i admit, i don't know the language.

i



this brings up quantum physics again ((obviously? haha)): the nature of the universe is seen to be such that a single unit of matter, being first observed in one instant, can then simultaneously exist in multiple, equally existing states, even units, and then by the act of observation in a second instant collapse again to a single unit in a single state. observation seems to effect the reality of existence, and there is only One who observes all existence, in fact He observes all existence at all time, knowing all things: He is God.

Peter got this question right on the 3rd try ((John 21:17)) - saying to Christ, "Lord, You know all things"
previously His disciples had said they understood that He knows all things, and He had replied, "Do you now believe?" ((John 16:30))

do we now believe?
amen, i believe!

 

[trofimus]

Noose, does Jesus exist now, or was He substituted by the other form of authority, i.e. by the Holy Spirit?

 

[GodisONE]

Your careless and almost blasphemious notes like "jesus is only a puppet" are really not what the Bible says. You should do a better job while reading Scriptures and while thinking about what you read in them.

the answer is 2 posts from this one!!

 

[GodisONE]

not sure why the lines are in the sentences but it should not be. I hit the wrong button!!

 

[GodisONE]

trofimus said:
Your careless and almost blasphemious notes like "jesus is only a puppet" are really not what the Bible says. You should do a better job while reading Scriptures and while thinking about what you read in them.






we are to read the bible and understand what is going on based by what is being written.
and the puppet comment relates due to Yeshua admitting nothing He says or does is His own doing, but it's Yahweh's doing it who lives inside Him.

once again, another perfect example of the ONE PERSON of GOD speaking, and His WORD in the flesh doing the action of what is being spoken.

this is the perfect of example of God and His spoken WORD!!
and the perfect example of ONENESS knowing that your words you speak are the same as you [the speaker]!!

this is another proof of why Paul baptized in the NAME of YESHUA, because Yeshua and Yahweh ARE THE SAME PERSON!!

 

[Noose]

I do not understand what you are saying. That it did not happen? What does it mean that it was animated (almost physical)?

That event never meant that the Father is a separate entity speaking from the clouds (separate place) and it never meant that the Holy spirit was separate entity coming in the form of a dove from a different place to rest on Jesus. The Father and the Holy spirit are within Jesus, but because John had to see something and hear the approval, it happened to John that the Father spoke from heaven and that the spirit descended on Jesus to fulfill what he was told earlier ("...the one who the spirit will descend and remain..").

If it is true that only John heard the voice and saw the dove, then these things appeared to him because he was in the spirit. Meaning that, it happened in his mind.

There's no way anyone would claim that the Father is a separate entity, speaking from heaven to the son who is on earth and conclude that they are two persons in one being. What do you mean one being when we can already see one being here on earth? it actually means the person speaking from heaven is not a being at all (this is blasphemous)

OR

You can conclude that the person speaking shares the same being with one He is speaking to which means that He is in Him but for the reasons i have already highlighted, it appeared to the listener and the hearer that it was distinct voice approving the one on the earth.

Again, I have no idea what you just said. Maybe I am just stupid, I do not now. Can you give a shorter answer directed specifically on that verse?

Jer 31:3 The LORD appeared to him from afar: “I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have drawn you with loving devotion. 4Again I will build you, and you will be rebuilt, O Virgin Israel.

Psalms 103:17 But from everlasting to everlasting the loving devotion of the LORD extends to those who fear Him, and His righteousness to their children’s children—

So, if God has loved us with an everlasting love even before the world was created, doesn't it also mean He has been glorified with an everlasting glory even though the son has complied to His commands only recently?

You see, Jesus represents us when He makes that prayer because Jesus demonstrates sonship to us. If the Father is glorified because of the works that the Father has done through Jesus, then the Father will also be glorified through the works that He does through us and if the Father loved Jesus before the foundations of the world, He also loved us and that is the glory being shared before the foundations of the world.

Notice how Jesus keeps applying the same things for Himself and then to believers:

John 17:
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began....

10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. ...

22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity .....

24“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. ....

26I have made youe known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

 

[Noose]

Noose, does Jesus exist now, or was He substituted by the other form of authority, i.e. by the Holy Spirit?

Rev 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

You now know that Jesus has a new authority - He is the Father and we are the son. When everything is put under our feet and we have crushed our enemies as a kingdom here on earth, then we shall hand over everything back to the one who gave us the authority and we will be subject to Him.

 

[GodisONE]

Rev 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

You now know that Jesus has a new authority - He is the Father and we are the son. When everything is put under our feet and we have crushed our enemies as a kingdom here on earth, then we shall hand over everything back to the one who gave us the authority and we will be subject to Him.

this is why as sons of God, when we pray "OUR FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN," we are praying to Yeshua. and He taught us how to properly pray to Him!!

 

[JChesney]

this is why as sons of God, when we pray "OUR FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN," we are praying to Yeshua. and He taught us how to properly pray to Him!!

Surely such views on God and the Messiah were alien to the apostles and members of the primitive apostolic community, which consisted mainly of Jews.

 

[GodisONE]

Surely such views on God and the Messiah were alien to the apostles and members of the primitive apostolic community, which consisted mainly of Jews.

indeed, it would have definitely took a deeper revelation for those who understood to come to this conclusion. but it does appear the Disciples understood it and so did Paul.

example:
Acts 2:38 is Peter instructing us to baptize in the NAME of Yeshua.
Acts 19:5 is Paul baptizing people using the ONENESS formula by baptizing them in the NAME of Yeshua.
this means the leader of the council James (half brother of Yeshua), would have been ok with this method and understanding of who Yeshua truthfully was.

and of course, we are speaking this happened only a few months after Yeshua ascended back to glory. and the Book of Acts is what we believe to be the beginning of the new church age following Yeshua. which would be around 34 A.D.

clearly some of them understood it!!

definitely not the Pharisees, saducees, scribes hahahahaha

 

[JChesney]

...

It is advisable to understand the theological language of biblical writers, taking into account the ideological background in Judaism of that period. Because you mix your own concept with the biblical and try to bind the biblical authors to your conclusions, this is a fraught venture.

 

[GodisONE]

It is advisable to understand the theological language of biblical writers, taking into account the ideological background in Judaism of that period. Because you mix your own concept with the biblical and try to bind the biblical authors to your conclusions, this is a fraught venture.

and this is true with the exception, we know later on in the Book of Acts what the Disciples and Paul were preaching, teaching, how they were baptizing, etc. that gives us enough insight where we can base such conclusions!!

 

[Noose]

Surely such views on God and the Messiah were alien to the apostles and members of the primitive apostolic community, which consisted mainly of Jews.

Ok, open your ears and eyes and stick with me:

John 14: 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. .....

23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.....

John 16: 7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

1. So the comforter can not come unless Jesus goes and when He goes, the comforter will come.
2. Jesus also says that the comforter was already there with them but will be in them when He (Jesus) goes
3. Jesus says that He will not leave them as orphans (the word should be correctly translated as comfortless), H will come to them shortly after going
4. Jesus says He will come into them that obey Him with His Father and make a home with them

Logical conclusion:
Jesus is the comforter who was there with them but had to go and come in a different form/authority and indwell them. If Jesus doesn't go, then the comforter can not come. This is not how distinct persons behave.

This badly defeats the notion that Jesus is not the Holy spirit and the Father is not Jesus.