What about murders commited in a state of psychosis, when the killer is in a state where free will is practically non-exsistent? Death sentence or not ?
Charlie Kirk Shot
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Jesus said:
Love your enemies.
If someone slaps you on your cheek, turn the other cheek around (available for slapping).
Did he say this or not ?
Love your enemies.
If someone slaps you on your cheek, turn the other cheek around (available for slapping).
Did he say this or not ?
Well the revealed messages today reveal he was not in such a state, so already insanity plea will not avail him most certainly. He was cognizant enough for this as well as clearly demonstrates premeditation it is certainly first degree murder.
We Christians have been trained by Hindu philosophers like Gandhi for too long. Your New testament examples of hatred, wrath, vitriole or any synonym that fits, is not always sinful as you rightly explained.
Steven preached a sermon, filled with the Holy Spirit that you just posted for others to read. We all should ask ourselves if our pastors would let Steven preach that in their churches, or just label him a "hate preacher?"
John the Baptist would probably get kicked out of some of the Baptist churches of pastors I've met locally. I love Baptists too, but when I start to get rebuked for warning against the violence sodomites often inflict upon others, only to be proven correct when a bull dyke beat the heck out of a little girl not 15 years old, well.....
It was the pastor's daughter on the receiving end, but I hate to be proven right. Oops, I said the "H" word!
Anyhow, we Christians should stop listening to the world's philosophy and go to the Scriptures which are profitable for instructions.
We have to look at the Lord's perspective in the Old and New Testament. There was a time or two I remember reading about the Lord's wrath.
The thing is that it must be appropriate and not live in it.
Let not the sun go down upon your wrath is a command that acknowledged the emotion, but sets limits on it. Plus people don't normally go around committing Acts of violence.
I am a very even tempered person. I didn't even lose my temper with Peanut the she-male at the grocery store that wasted around half an hour of my time this evening over a simple overcharge and filling out a raincheck. Good grief, why do managers hire them for positions that they aren't qualified for?
Which revealed messages?
Who claimed these messages?
What is your definiton of "first degree murder"?
Messages of the shooter to his boyfriend in the immediate aftermath of the shooting as well as some leaked messages of their Discord. People posted them in the prior pages like post #710 partial transcript Citizen wrote out. Some of it was read off during the press conference I posted a few page before that.
Also ain't about what my definition is, but rather Utah.
He certainly did and we should obey Him.
He also said, 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
Do you have an idea why He commanded them to carry a primary Roman military weapon?
Well, nothing you said here documents if the killer was in a psychosis or not. I am not convinced.
His own messages indicate he was lucid and cognizant and in his rational mind. They also reveal premeditation, he outright states to his boyfriend that he had been planning for a little over a week. Truthfully I don't know the exact Utah statute on first degree murder and am too tired to look it up, it should be easy to find, but principally most states the main factor is premeditation, so conventional thought would be this is a clear cut case of first degree homicide.
So - you support death penalty in this case -
and death penalty some generally speaking ?
Depends on the law of the state or nation where the crime occurred. God has given government authorities the right to carry out punishment as they see fit.
Which has nothing at all to do with committing a crime and paying the lawful consequences. Don't just ignore Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2. Refute them in detail as to why you believe they do not apply, and why you believe God didn't really say what He said.
Not since his father delivered him up and surrendered, see my prior posts that earned me many Xs, but I stand by it, that's okay they can disagree they're not like totally wrong. They are right that he does deserve to die for this and it's not a sin to put him to death blood for blood just on the surface level of the case itself. You're not too far wrong though either, the Lord also does consider mercy and God is a God of judgment, he likes good judgment, not just petty revenge, not just biases and showtrials God likes good thorough just judgment. So we must also consider his surrender and his turning his heart to his father even though the secular law does not cover these totally.
The press conference video also revealed that the federal government may get involved and may release a statement soon. This might provide an opportunity where he could be both convicted of a death sentence in Utah but also get spared by being designated a terorrist or whatever really and throwing him into either a federal prison, or I personally would suggest Gitmo to really do some studying of the bug. He could then after his father passes away, or if he is uncooperative, simply be sent back to Utah for execution at any time.
The New Covenant
In this chapter we are told that God made a new covenant with us and the mere fact that there is a new covenant indicates the Old covenant is old and near to passing away. Therefore it is a crucial chapter in understanding what this means because the OSAS crowd will tell you that we are not under the law (true) and that the law is passing away (true) but that is only half the story, a half truth is often the best way to lie.
Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Yes, the old covenant is passing away along with their high priest. But that is because God has replaced the Old covenant with a New Covenant. We still have a high priest, however he is a minister of the true tabernacle. The Jewish high priest is a minister of the shadow of the true tabernacle that is on earth. Our High priest is set on the right hand of the throne of the majesty, the Jewish high priest is set on the right hand of the earthly throne. In other words our picture books we had in first grade have been replaced with the real books we had in fourth grade.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
If you have a thanksgiving to make that is a gift, it is not required. However, if you are reconciling for sin, that is a sacrifice, it is required, there is a price to pay. We are not talking about works salvation, the only price that will pay for your sins is the blood of Jesus. However, if your sin is that you stole $1,000 after confessing, repenting and taking the blood of Jesus you then need to pay back the money you stole. For example, no one might have known you stole the money but then you walk into the police station, make a full confession and give them $2,000, that is according to the law and it would be a testimony to all that the Lord has given you a new heart.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
This is what kills me. Is the old covenant being done away? Yes. However, the Old Covenant was a pattern of and a shadow of the heavenly things. So the shadow is being done away because we now have the reality. The Jewish High priest is a shadow of Jesus who was to come, but now that He has come, they are obviously being done away with. We are not under the shadow because now we are under the real deal.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant. What does that mean? Take our example of the guy who stole $1,000, came to Jesus, confessed, repented, took the blood and was forgiven. It was Jesus in him telling him he needed to pay that money back and that it needed to be $2,000. The man may not have understood why, only that with inflation and everything else it would not have been right to just give them $1,000. However this is the law in the Old testament for people who were not caught but wanted to repent.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
The fault with the first covenant was that people didn't repent. They still had an evil heart. As far as they were concerned they got away with it.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
So then did the law really pass away? Jesus Christ is the incarnated word of God. In the New Testament Jesus Christ indwells us. Our new heart has the laws of God written on them. The reason the "Law" is passing away and we are not under it is because it is weak. It was ineffective. People knew what the ten commandments were, but violated them anyway. But when they are written on your heart it is different. If you do violate them, which of course sinners by nature will, your heart will bother you. It will convict you. Ultimately you will realize the only way you can enjoy peace that passes all understanding and the knowledge surpassing love of Christ is if you deal with that sin. Some people will continue to ignore their conscience and it will become scarred, insensitive, and ultimately dead. But for most believers they will choose to obey their conscience. That is the New Testament, that is what it means to be under grace. In the Old Covenant if you violate the law there is a penalty, a price to pay. In the New Covenant if you violate the law you are cut off from grace, dealing with sin results in a reward because you are then restored to grace.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
In this chapter we are told that God made a new covenant with us and the mere fact that there is a new covenant indicates the Old covenant is old and near to passing away. Therefore it is a crucial chapter in understanding what this means because the OSAS crowd will tell you that we are not under the law (true) and that the law is passing away (true) but that is only half the story, a half truth is often the best way to lie.
Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Yes, the old covenant is passing away along with their high priest. But that is because God has replaced the Old covenant with a New Covenant. We still have a high priest, however he is a minister of the true tabernacle. The Jewish high priest is a minister of the shadow of the true tabernacle that is on earth. Our High priest is set on the right hand of the throne of the majesty, the Jewish high priest is set on the right hand of the earthly throne. In other words our picture books we had in first grade have been replaced with the real books we had in fourth grade.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
If you have a thanksgiving to make that is a gift, it is not required. However, if you are reconciling for sin, that is a sacrifice, it is required, there is a price to pay. We are not talking about works salvation, the only price that will pay for your sins is the blood of Jesus. However, if your sin is that you stole $1,000 after confessing, repenting and taking the blood of Jesus you then need to pay back the money you stole. For example, no one might have known you stole the money but then you walk into the police station, make a full confession and give them $2,000, that is according to the law and it would be a testimony to all that the Lord has given you a new heart.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
This is what kills me. Is the old covenant being done away? Yes. However, the Old Covenant was a pattern of and a shadow of the heavenly things. So the shadow is being done away because we now have the reality. The Jewish High priest is a shadow of Jesus who was to come, but now that He has come, they are obviously being done away with. We are not under the shadow because now we are under the real deal.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant. What does that mean? Take our example of the guy who stole $1,000, came to Jesus, confessed, repented, took the blood and was forgiven. It was Jesus in him telling him he needed to pay that money back and that it needed to be $2,000. The man may not have understood why, only that with inflation and everything else it would not have been right to just give them $1,000. However this is the law in the Old testament for people who were not caught but wanted to repent.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
The fault with the first covenant was that people didn't repent. They still had an evil heart. As far as they were concerned they got away with it.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
So then did the law really pass away? Jesus Christ is the incarnated word of God. In the New Testament Jesus Christ indwells us. Our new heart has the laws of God written on them. The reason the "Law" is passing away and we are not under it is because it is weak. It was ineffective. People knew what the ten commandments were, but violated them anyway. But when they are written on your heart it is different. If you do violate them, which of course sinners by nature will, your heart will bother you. It will convict you. Ultimately you will realize the only way you can enjoy peace that passes all understanding and the knowledge surpassing love of Christ is if you deal with that sin. Some people will continue to ignore their conscience and it will become scarred, insensitive, and ultimately dead. But for most believers they will choose to obey their conscience. That is the New Testament, that is what it means to be under grace. In the Old Covenant if you violate the law there is a penalty, a price to pay. In the New Covenant if you violate the law you are cut off from grace, dealing with sin results in a reward because you are then restored to grace.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
I like the gentle reminder that instead of all this conjecture about things we don't know (did he act alone or was there a bigger and uglier conspiracy, will he get the death penalty or will be cooperate with the authorities, and how did he get radicalized) we should instead focus on things where we have solid evidence and a solid Biblical footing like Bigfoot and the return of the Nephilim just as in the Days of Noah.
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