Cessationism and Continuationism

[Aerials1978]

you could just say you don't know the answer

but I understand that your pride will not let you

I hope you calm down

Thank you for conformation of the latter.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

MacArthur is not the issue, and he can be either ignored or dismissed. So let's focus on the actual issue. There is no contradiction between saying that Scripture is complete, and a multitude of prophecies remain unfulfilled. In the Holy Bible God has given to us all that we need (2 Tim 3:16,17). So here are some pertinent questions:

1. Is Scripture complete? Absolutely

2. Is the Bible perfect -- inspired, inerrant, and infallible? Absolutely

3. Did John say that no one should add any more prophecies to those in Revelation? Absolutely

4. Did Paul mean prophecies would cease? Paul said that they would cease (not fail even though it sounds like that in the KJV) and the word used in Greek is καταργηθήσονται (katargēthēsontai) derived from katargeo*.
*Strong's Concordance
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

5. Did Paul tie prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge together as a package of gifts that would cease? Absolutely

6. Did Paul say "that which is perfect/complete is come" or did he say "He who is perfect is come"? (meaning Christ). He did say the former, not the latter, and that was not careless or accidental.

7. Does the record show (Church Fathers and Church history) that for 1900 years those three gifts were not operational? Absolutely. Not a single Church Father claimed to be either (a) an apostle, or (b) a prophet, or (c) a tongues-speaker. But today claims are being made for all three.

So we need to go by a proper exegesis as well as a close examination of Church history to see that out of about 20 spiritual gifts these three have ceased. The classic work by Philip Schaff -- History of the Christian Church -- will confirm what I have said.

At the same time, Christians who are not Pentecostals or Charismatics do not have to interfere with, or deride, those who are. Each one is directly accountable to God. However there could be serious issues for the unwary if false tongues are being promoted (along with a lot of emotionalism and sometimes craziness) among certain groups. The description of the "Toronto Blessing" comes to mind.

You really have no clue!

I've posted a literal 4 entire page list from the Apostles till now where people have been documenting Spiritual Gifts in Actions in another thread here.

I understand you choose to disagree with Speaking in Tongues and that is you right to do so, but it doesn't make you correct. And that List is accurate.

I will take the words of John Wesley in the 1700's, WHO DID NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES, but Documented when he preached, the Holy Spirit was evident as those who heard him were Speaking in Tongues. And that list comprises of many men the Modern Day Church claims to be examples of what Church Leaders should be like.

I trust their Documentations over your flimsy excuses any day!

 

[Aerials1978]

You really have no clue!

I've posted a literal 4 entire page list from the Apostles till now where people have been documenting Spiritual Gifts in Actions in another thread here.

I understand you choose to disagree with Speaking in Tongues and that is you right to do so, but it doesn't make you correct. And that List is accurate.

I will take the words of John Wesley in the 1700's, WHO DID NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES, but Documented when he preached, the Holy Spirit was evident as those who heard him were Speaking in Tongues. And that list comprises of many men the Modern Day Church claims to be examples of what Church Leaders should be like.

I trust their Documentations over your flimsy excuses any day!

John Wesley was also a big advocate and helped introduce electro shock therapy for the mentally ill. Would you also agree with him on that?

 

[Heaven_Bound]

John Wesley was also a big advocate and helped introduce electro shock therapy for the mentally ill. Would you also agree with him on that?

As much as I would disagree with such practices, it's Biblically safer than MacArthur's we can take the Mark of the Beast and still inherit Eternal Life in Heaven!

 

[Aerials1978]

As much as I would disagree with such practices, it's Biblically safer than MacArthur's we can take the Mark of the Beast and still inherit Eternal Life in Heaven!

When did MacArthur say that? And if he did, I’m not seeing the parallel with Wesley.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Talking of the accusation that some cessationists are saying people speaking in tongues now is demonic...


I agree with the view that it's a euphoric and can even be a relaxing experience, rather than saying its directly demonic.

Most Christians who try to speak in tongues would do so with Gods best in mind, so it would be doubtful it would be a demonic thing.

It would only go to the demonic point where it would be akin to Hindu and New Age trance states.. where God isn't in the picture at all.

So yeah, I wouldn't call it demonic, Christian's trying to speak in tongues now, but a euphoric experience.

I respect your right to your view, but speaking in tongues is a doctrine of demons in my opinion. Many doctrines are demonic if they lead one away from the truth.

We're not called to euphoria but sobriety. People who think the Holy Spirit is giving them a euphoric high are serving a false spirit.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

When did MacArthur say that? And if he did, I’m not seeing the parallel with Wesley.

You won't see any parallelism because you think MacArthur is telling the truth. And you already know it's been posted on YOUR thread about him and the MOB and still going to Heaven.

You want to have a Discussion, then STOP talking in CIRCLES! A person who talks in Circles is a LIAR! I don't have time for LIARS!

 

[Rosemaryx]

When did MacArthur say that? And if he did, I’m not seeing the parallel with Wesley.

JM answered someone in the audience who asked him a hypothetical question , and JM gave him a hypothetical answer...
Someone chopped the whole video , and posted it to look like JM said you can take the mark...

If you go to grace to you website , you will see the explanation of what happened...
Hope this helps...
...xox...

 

[Heaven_Bound]

I respect your right to your view, but speaking in tongues is a doctrine of demons in my opinion. Many doctrines are demonic if they lead one away from the truth.

We're not called to euphoria but sobriety. People who think the Holy Spirit is giving them a euphoric high are serving a false spirit.

I showed you the miracle that just happened to me that literally hundreds have witnessed including Police/Fire/News Paper Reporters/Etc I Speak in Tongues.

When was the last time you had a Miracle that many people witnessed and can now be a Testimony for God?
If you have not, maybe Demons are surrounding Your Doctrine is WHY!!

 

[Aerials1978]

JM answered someone in the audience who asked him a hypothetical question , and JM gave him a hypothetical answer...
Someone chopped the whole video , and posted it to look like JM said you can take the mark...

If you go to grace to you website , you will see the explanation of what happened...
Hope this helps...
...xox...

Good to know. I have listen to MacArthur for some time now and I couldn’t not recall him saying that. Give his theology it seems to be a real stretch.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

I showed you the miracle that just happened to me that literally hundreds have witnessed including Police/Fire/News Paper Reporters/Etc I Speak in Tongues.

When was the last time you had a Miracle that many people witnessed and can now be a Testimony for God?
If you have not, maybe Demons are surrounding Your Doctrine is WHY!!

Expanding my Thoughts:

When was the last you had 4 confirmed, + Yourself, eye witness to an Angel of God working side by side and talking to You and Assuring You won't lose anything, like I did not lose any of my buildings/animals/anything of real Value?

 

[ResidentAlien]

I showed you the miracle that just happened to me that literally hundreds have witnessed including Police/Fire/News Paper Reporters/Etc I Speak in Tongues.

When was the last time you had a Miracle that many people witnessed and can now be a Testimony for God?
If you have not, maybe Demons are surrounding Your Doctrine is WHY!!

Another story.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Another story.

You don't believe the Satellite before and Police Drone after pictures + Police Reports and Fire Reports?

 

[Heaven_Bound]

I will present before and after pictures and look at the buildings and home in both picture and judge if it is the SAME PROPERTY or not, if permitted by Thread Op, to show the Power of God for a Tongue Speaking Believer and Teacher of His Holy Word!

 

[wattie]

I respect your right to your view, but speaking in tongues is a doctrine of demons in my opinion. Many doctrines are demonic if they lead one away from the truth.

We're not called to euphoria but sobriety. People who think the Holy Spirit is giving them a euphoric high are serving a false spirit.

Well I'm not saying tongues are for now, but just that most Christians who do practice it would have God in mind rather than anything evil/demonic

 

[Heaven_Bound]

If I was against Speaking in Tongues, the last thing I would want to see, is the WORKINGS of GOD that is so Miraculous helping a Tongue Speaker, that those [against] Speaking in Tongues, don't have such a Testimony of God working in their own lives to such a degree that HUNDREDS of people witnessed and can VERIFY!

 

[ResidentAlien]

Well I'm not saying tongues are for now, but just that most Christians who do practice it would have God in mind rather than anything evil/demonic

Yes, I agree. I would only add, they're seriously deceived. Doing something demonic in God's name doesn't make it less demonic.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Yes, I agree. I would only add, they're seriously deceived. Doing something demonic in God's name doesn't make it less demonic.

You are most definitely Deceived!

You are so scared of the Power of God within me, YOU are afraid to call me a Liar, because You even feel and know from the Holy Spirit within You, I am telling the Truth!

 

[kaylagrl]

This is just a short 8 minute video clip of John MacArthur explaining why he believes(As I do) that certain gifts of the Spirit ceased with Apostles.

I know this is a touchy subject and I do expect some disagreement, but I am interested in what other Christians thoughts on the matter are.

Reading on this subject more deeply since it's suddenly the most popular issue here, here a few points to think about regarding cessationism.


Point One - The New Testament also employs the term apostle(s) to refer to several people aside from the Twelve and Paul. For a few examples, these include Apollos (1 Corinthians 4:6-13), James (Galatians 1:19), Barnabas (Acts 14:14); Titus (2 Corinthians 8:23), and more.

None of these people were authors of Scripture. " These were people who lived and served the church during those foundational years and were called and gifted by the Holy Spirit as apostles, even though they never operated as God’s agents in receiving and delivering inspired scripture to the church. This means that, though they were certainly important and strategic leaders in their own right, they were not foundational in the same way that the Twelve and Paul were foundational to the establishment of the church, and formulation of the biblical canon. This would seem to at least imply the possibility that such apostles could exist today without threatening the closed canon of the Bible, or leading to Roman Catholic conclusions about Apostolic Succession."


Point 2 -
"Scripture does not limit God’s intentions for miracles, healings, and the like to authenticating Messianic or apostolic ministry, and neither should people today.

Far more people than Jesus and the apostles experienced miraculous manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament (Acts 6:8; 8:6). Paul’s instructions to the Corinthians declare that the charismata are the potential experience of all individual believers in the church (1 Corinthians 12:4-11). In his speech at Pentecost, Peter reaches back to Joel 2:28-32 to provide a biblical framework for understanding the manifestation of the gift of tongues the people were hearing at that pivotal moment in church history: “God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy” (Acts 2:17a-18). "

So this was to all, not just a special few to men AND women. I will pour out my spirit on ALL, even servants.


Point 3- "The argument for cessationism from a closed canon has weaknesses. For one, there is no evidence that tongues or prophecy were the mediums through which God moved the biblical authors to formulate inspired Scripture. On the contrary, Paul plainly and bluntly describes tongues as praying (1 Corinthians 14:14), singing (14:15b), and giving thanks (14:16) in the spirit to God (2a), for the believer’s personal edification (4a), by means of a language previously unknown to the speaker (14:10-14). New Testament Prophecy is speaking a spontaneous (14:30), biblically-consistent message (14:29b), which brings edification, exhortation, or comfort to the hearer (14:3). These are not gifts reserved for the spiritual elite or uniquely called, but the potential experience of all believers (14:1), young or old, male or female (Joel 2:28-32; 1 Corinthians 11:5), leader or non-leader (1 Corinthians 14:31). If these revelatory gifts were experienced by all believers (not just the apostles and authors of Scripture), during the first century of the church, and were therefore clearly not the mechanism through which inspired Scripture was granted, then there is no reason to believe that their usefulness would pass from the scene when the canon was completed."

Point 4- Regarding 1 Corinthians 13:8-9, it is more likely that the perfect Paul had in mind is the state of glorification believers will experience in the next age.

But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Point 5 - "God commands the church to actively avoid quenching manifestations of the Spirit. (1 Thessalonians 5:19-22; 1 Corinthians 14:39-40) Nothing could be more quenching to the Spirit and His desire to grant the charismata in our midst than teaching people that these manifestations of the Spirit are not available to the church today and that they should not be sought or tolerated by believers in our personal lives and congregational gatherings. "

1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22 reject every kind of evil.

1 Corinthians 14:39-40 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

 

[kaylagrl]

Yes, I agree. I would only add, they're seriously deceived. Doing something demonic in God's name doesn't make it less demonic.

And there is the utter arrogance of that side of the argument. That down through the years, every person who has spoken in tongues has done it through demonic power. I certainly hope I missed something in post and that you are not claiming this. I will await an answer so as not to be accused of putting words in your mouth.