Catholic vs Protestant Debate.

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ChurchAuthority said:
Because the "brothers" (Adelphoi) are named elsewhere like in Matt. 13. They don't need to be named in every single verse that they are mentioned.

This is Bible 101 here.
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you cannot prove that -all- of jesus' brothers are mentioned by name elsewhere...matthew 12:46-47 and mark 3:31-32 and luke 8:19-20 and john 2:12 and acts 1:14 could easily include brothers of jesus that were -not- mentioned by name elsewhere...

this is basic logic...
 
whats the point of proving Marys perpetual virginity?
Ive forgotten, can someone remind me please?
What is the fruit from that?
 
Xanthus said:
Rachel, you have a habit of ignoring the scripture that refutes your position. Blaspemous?! A sin? Misogynistic? Wrong, wrong, wrong.
In the same letter you quote from it also says clearly;
1 Corinthians 7:8
"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do."

Do you just read past these passages and immediately forget them?

You say, "if joseph is no longer permitted to 'know' mary..." ?? But no one has said that ("permitted"). You are refuting a claim no one has made. This is the modus operandi of a deceiver.
It is very possible that, in his advanced years, Joseph simply refrained by choice.
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mary was neither unmarried nor a widow...so 1 corinthians 7:8 does not apply to her...

in the further instructions that paul gave to -married- couples he made it clear that married couples were not supposed to refrain from sexual activity indefinitely...there is no provision for 'perpetual virginity' within marriage...

if mary remained a virgin her entire life then she was disobeying God's instructions for marriage...which is a sin...

if you want to keep insulting mary then that is your choice...but in that case i'd like all the roman catholics to stop going around claiming that protestants don't have enough respect for mary...
 
Abiding said:
whats the point of proving Marys perpetual virginity?
Ive forgotten, can someone remind me please?
What is the fruit from that?
Click to expand...

well they think they are making her more 'holy' by pretending that she was a virgin all her life...but as i have shown they are doing just the opposite...they are basically calling her an unfaithful wife...

in this case i think the 'root' is more significant than the 'fruit'...the idea that 'perpetual virginity' makes mary more holy has an underlying misogyny...in which the only way a woman can be truly pure is by denying her sexuality...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
well they think they are making her more 'holy' by pretending that she was a virgin all her life...but as i have shown they are doing just the opposite...they are basically calling her an unfaithful wife...

in this case i think the 'root' is more significant than the 'fruit'...the idea that 'perpetual virginity' makes mary more holy has an underlying misogyny...in which the only way a woman can be truly pure is by denying her sexuality...
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That all? wow! and ive noticed all the work that goes into it. Remarkable.
I can see it fitting in the past...but to carry on with it today is rather odd.
But what is the reason for making Mary more holy?
 
Abiding said:
That all? wow! and ive noticed all the work that goes into it. Remarkable.
I can see it fitting in the past...but to carry on with it today is rather odd.
But what is the reason for making Mary more holy?
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i guess they have a need for the mother of jesus to be completely holy...

after all we can't have sinners in jesus' family tree...and prostitutes like rahab are right out...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
you cannot prove that -all- of jesus' brothers are mentioned by name elsewhere...matthew 12:46-47 and mark 3:31-32 and luke 8:19-20 and john 2:12 and acts 1:14 could easily include brothers of jesus that were -not- mentioned by name elsewhere...

this is basic logic...
Click to expand...

Actually, I'm glad you brought up Acts 1:14. What is the Greek word used here? It's ADELPHOI (brothers).
Now, go to verse 15. What is the Greek word used here? It's ADELPHOI (brothers). It speaks of 120 ADELPHOI. Are all of these men uterine brothers? NO.
We know this because all of the Apostles were there and they weren't all uterine siblings.

As a matter of fact, of the over 300 times in the New Testament that this word (and variations of it) is used - a whopping 74% of the time, it is not speaking of uterine siblings. It is speaking of cousins, in-laws, uncles, nephews, friends, neighbors, fellow believers, etc.
How can you be certain that these "brethren" of the Lord were uterine siblings. You can't.

Here is another problem for you. When Jesus was on the cross, He left His Mother in the care of John the Apostle. This would have been a scandal of HUGE proportions within the family because the next eldest sibling would have had the task of taking care of her - not John.

John was chosen because Mary was ALONE.
 
I'm not going to defend either. I tried both. I don't follow church tradition anymore. I'm simply a member of the body of Christ. Scripture suffices. "For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)
 
Abiding said:
whats the point of proving Marys perpetual virginity?
Ive forgotten, can someone remind me please?
What is the fruit from that?
Click to expand...

they need Mary to be sinless
that's needed for the Immaculate Conception thing.
which is needed to make her Co-Redemptrix and stuff.

me tinks:confused:
 
ChristReconcilesAll said:
I'm not going to defend either. I tried both. I don't follow church tradition anymore. I'm simply a member of the body of Christ. Scripture suffices. "For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)
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Sorry, but if you're not part of His Church, you're not part of His Body (Acts 9:4-5).
 
zone said:
they need Mary to be sinless
that's needed for the Immaculate Conception thing.
which is needed to make her Co-Redemptrix and stuff.

me tinks:confused:
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Just wondered...the last catholic i talked to told me it was because Jesus
was a man...men are harsh and mary was pleasant. So this way woman
had someone to talk to....yet men bow to marys statue too. so maybe
men need a woman also. im not being silly...although im not accepting it
i still would like to understand it.
 
Abiding said:
Just wondered...the last catholic i talked to told me it was because Jesus
was a man...men are harsh and mary was pleasant. So this way woman
had someone to talk to....yet men bow to marys statue too. so maybe
men need a woman also. im not being silly...although im not accepting it
i still would like to understand it.
Click to expand...

uh...women had someone more pleasant to pray to?
like that?
 
Christ is the only one who didn't live in a glass house. He could throw stones, you can't.

Weren't we told that we could only recognize Christ through the Holy Spirit? Isn't those who do brothers?

Personally, I would like to rip out every picture or statue of Christ.
I would like to rip out every tradition from my church and just go by the bible.

Of the two people I love especially, one is a Catholic, one a Protestant. We often discuss bible. I learn from both.
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
if mary remained a virgin her entire life then she was disobeying God's instructions for marriage...which is a sin...

if you want to keep insulting mary then that is your choice...but in that case i'd like all the roman catholics to stop going around claiming that protestants don't have enough respect for mary...
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I do not believe that remaining a virgin would be disobeying any instruction for the woman if her husband chose not to have conjugal relations. Please explain how this would be otherwise.

I did not insult Mary. Explain this in NO UNCERTAIN fashion or be revealed as a deceiver. No "if" elements... you implied that I was "insulting" Mary so now I ask you to definitively justify that accusation with no qualifiers. Straight up or take it back.

Enough with your false accusations and deception.

Please make your case on its own merits and dispense with the false accusations that depend on your personal belief system (with which I am barely just now becoming familiar) to have any validity.
 
It's highly likely that Mary didn't remain a virgin, seeing as Jesus had brothers.

The part of the bible that does it for me is the part whenever Jesus' brothers are sort of, mocking him or saying something about him and he says something like 'a prophet is never valued in his hometown or by his family'. Something like that.

Can't remember what it was exactly.
 
Porthos said:
It's highly likely that Mary didn't remain a virgin, seeing as Jesus had brothers.

The part of the bible that does it for me is the part whenever Jesus' brothers are sort of, mocking him or saying something about him and he says something like 'a prophet is never valued in his hometown or by his family'. Something like that.

Can't remember what it was exactly.
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"Brother" is a broad term that does not necessarily mean the man is from the same mother. Especially in deeply religious communities. This should go without saying.

Can anyone show where in the NT it says that Mary gave birth to other children?

The fact that it doesn't is at least noteworthy.
 
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Xanthus said:
"Brother" is a broad term that does not necessarily mean the man is from the same mother. Especially in deeply religious communities. This should go without saying.

Can anyone show where in the NT it says that Mary gave birth to other children?

The fact that it doesn't is at least noteworthy.
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Perhaps. But it definitely comes across to me like he did have brothers. Coupled with the fact that Jewish society put emphasis on couples having children together, I, personally, would say that Jesus did have brothers who were born of Mary.
 
Porthos said:
Perhaps. But it definitely comes across to me like he did have brothers. Coupled with the fact that Jewish society put emphasis on couples having children together, I, personally, would say that Jesus did have brothers who were born of Mary.
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And that's fine. Yes marriage and children were pretty much mandatory in that culture. But most would agree that this was a rather extraordinary special case.

The NT talks about Mary A LOT and describes her going here... going there... she is with this person... that person... but nowhere does it mention that she gave birth to other children and it does not say she was ever accompanied by any of her 'other' children. What's up with THAT?

You may not agree but reasonable people would allow that the Roman Catholic doctrine on this is hardly beyond the pale... the lack of scriptural reference to Mary specifically giving birth to other children is meaningful. It may mean less to some than others but to condemn the doctrine so vigorously is uncalled for.
 
Xanthus said:
I do not believe that remaining a virgin would be disobeying any instruction for the woman if her husband chose not to have conjugal relations. Please explain how this would be otherwise.

I did not insult Mary. Explain this in NO UNCERTAIN fashion or be revealed as a deceiver. No "if" elements... you implied that I was "insulting" Mary so now I ask you to definitively justify that accusation with no qualifiers. Straight up or take it back.

Enough with your false accusations and deception.

Please make your case on its own merits and dispense with the false accusations that depend on your personal belief system (with which I am barely just now becoming familiar) to have any validity.
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she did...quite well.
she has nothing to take back.

her assumptions and reasonings are no more far fetched than yours.

you have Joseph:

previously married with kids i think...
old and having died by the Crucifixion is your proof his kids would be so much older.
Joseph not interested in normal relations with his wife, which God blesses.
and mary not interested...like why....why do that.

Matthew 1:25
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

wrestle this all you want to:)
rachel is right.
they were as one flesh.
married - normal godly people.
s-e-x.

if the bible wanted to make a special point of saying they had no sexual relations and therefore no other kids...it would have SPELLED IT OUT and given the reason why.

stop adding stuff that isnt there and just honor the blessed virgin as we all do.
k...thx
 
Peace be with you, i am born again of water and SPIRIT and i was led and being led by the HOLY SPIRIT who our CHRIST gave us to represent HIM (while HE is with the FATHER praying and pleading for us) as our Helper to lead us into the full truth in the HOLY BIBLE. By HE the SPIRIT's help we are able to distinguish between the spirit of error and the spirit of truth.
Everyone speaks even the world as how they are taught, seen and learn. To whom they submit to, he becomes their master or masters of their practicing life, to achieve and to measure up with others.
Since i the member of the church, am purchased with a great price, i belong to CHRIST and HE is only is my MASTER. i only hear HIS voice from the SPIRIT and also even through humans who represent HIM.
 
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