Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[Mediate]

There are some things we cannot change. It's the heart of a person that matters more than anything else.

 

[Mediate]

But I know that behind the eyes people here will be saying 'You believe that wishy-washy nonsense and when God comes He'll show you good and proper'. That's actually the saddest part. People are so caught up in their own heads with this scriptural argument they forget what love is.

It's saddening.

 

[SantoSubito]

Sins must be expiated (atoned for). This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments....[In] purgatory the souls of those...“who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions” are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt. (V2IDchp1:2, 3)

[W]e are able through Jesus Christ to make satisfaction to God the Father not only by punishments voluntarily undertaken by ourselves to atone for sins or by those imposed by the judgment of the priest according to the measure of our offense, but also...by the temporal afflictions imposed by God [on the sinner].... (CoT14Schp9)

They [i.e., the saints] have carried their crosses to make expiation for their own sins and the sins of others. They were convinced that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God who is the Father of mercies….Indeed, the prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that it could be asserted that the penitent was washed, cleansed and redeemed with the help of the entire Christian people.... (V2IDchp2:5, 3:6)

From the most ancient times in the Church good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners, particularly the works [i.e., sufferings and miseries] which human weakness finds hard. (V2IDchp3:6)

The Christian [read Roman Catholic] faithful...are bound by Christian obedience to follow what the sacred pastors...declare as teachers of the faith or determine as leaders of the Church. (Code of Canon Law - Canon 212-1)
This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and that one sincerely adhere to decisions made by him.... (Vatican II Lumen Gentium 25)
[The Bishops when] assembled in an ecumenical council, they are, for the universal Church, teachers of and judges in matters of faith and morals, whose decisions must be adhered to with the loyal and obedient assent of faith....[When] the Roman Pontiff, or the body of bishops together with him, define a doctrine, they make the definition in conformity with revelation itself, to which all are bound to adhere and to which they are obliged to submit.... (Vatican II Lumen Gentium 25C2)


My understand is that refusal to submit is a mortal sin.

We are required to submit to authority, but it is not sinful to disagree with opinions of the clergy, unless their opinions are that of an infallible teaching of the Church. Then the disagreement becomes heresy.

According to the infallible Council of Trent—6th Session, Canon 9:
If anyone says that...the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification..., let him be anathema.


6th Session, Canon 12:
If anyone shall say that... justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone by which we are justified: let him be anathema.


6th Session, Canon 30:
If anyone says that...after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.


Here is one more from the Council of Trent....7th Session, Canon 4:
If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law [the Sacraments of the Church] are not necessary for salvation but...without them...men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification...let him be anathema.


Doesn't "anathema" here mean excommunicated? That is to say, condemned to hell?

Yes it does, but anathemas by their nature can only apply to those who are now part of, or were part of at one time, the Catholic Church.

I don't post this to be argumentative, or insulting to Catholics. Far from it !But isn't this the official teaching of this church?
I don't understand how these things can be reconciled with the Word. If someone can enlighten me...?





4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2 KJV



10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4 KJV


16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2 KJV


20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3 KJV

Easy enough. In our understanding Paul speak of "Works of the Law" meaning the ceremonial purity laws and the like of the Mosaic Law. So Paul does not exclude what we call Spiritual and Temporal works of Mercy and Love. These Spiritual and temporal works are things like praying for people, feeding the hungry, and so on.

I do not know, so I ask if it's possible there are parishes that teach things different from one another? Does the country in which a member of the Cathoilc Chruch make a difference?

There are dissenting parishes, but such parishes are few and far between and are usually on the liberal end of the spectrum. What country the parish is in won't affect it's teaching as each parish is not autonomous.

 

[RoboOp]

The truth is there is no such thing as a perfect and flawless church. There are bad apples in every religion whether Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Non-Christian, etc. The bottom line is no matter what church you go to, it is still not flawless. The same thing goes with anybody, we are all sinners regardless of what faith or denomination we belong in and we have all fallen short of God. The truth is the only one who is flawless is Jesus. We all have failed God. Yes it is true God does hate sin, but on the other hand we all are guilty of sin

All denominations have their flaws so to tell you the truth, we are to love and accept one another as we are despite our difference. For those who do not love their neighbor who they can see, do not love God who they cannot see for God is love.

We're not talking about denominational differences on non-essential issues. We're talking about blatant heresy. Like, Mary is sinless like Jesus. Pray to her. Etc. Ummmm yah. These are somewhat more essential issues than Protestant denominational differences such as how to be baptized, free-will vs. predestination, gifts of the Spirit, women preachers, etc.

And with all due respect I must say that it does matter what kind of church you go to. There are some churches that appoint lesbian ministers. Such "churches" should be avoided. Likewise there are also some "churches" that teach you to believe in someone (Mary) as equal to Jesus, perfect, sinless, and being our mediator. Such "churches" should also be avoided.

 

[Red33]

We're not talking about denominational differences on non-essential issues. We're talking about blatant heresy. Like, Mary is sinless like Jesus. Pray to her. Etc. Ummmm yah. These are somewhat more essential issues than Protestant denominational differences such as how to be baptized, free-will vs. predestination, gifts of the Spirit, women preachers, etc.

And with all due respect I must say that it does matter what kind of church you go to. There are some churches that appoint lesbian ministers. Such "churches" should be avoided. Likewise there are also some "churches" that teach you to believe in someone (Mary) as equal to Jesus, perfect, sinless, and being our mediator. Such "churches" should also be avoided.

By the same token there are some churches that teach you can lose your salvation and that our Lord's shed blood was spilled for only a few who believe, they should likewise be avoided because these are also blatant heresies and if believer's do not recognize them as such then they have another spirit that did not come our Lord Jesus Christ. I'll take a common catholic that has little doctrine and puts an emphasis on Mary over against these that profess they know Christ and have fellowship in these heresies that do nothing but leaven the doctrine of Christ and bring condemnation into the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

 

[Shyness]

This is part of what proves that no denomination is flawless. I have seen an article that one baptist church in Jacksonville Florida that hired a registered sex offender as a pastor and banned all children from services. Florida Church Bans Children to "Protect" Pastor Registered as Child Sex Offender | RH Reality Check

It does not mean that all churches of that denomination condone this which this is only an isolated incident and only a very few bad apples out of a billion.

Even the Catholic church has bad apples as well but so does all the other denominations. The only thing that truly matters is doing what God commands us to do and follow God ourselves and learn to love others as God loves us.

 

[JaumeJ]

By the same token there are some churches that teach you can lose your salvation and that our Lord's shed blood was spilled for only a few who believe, they should likewise be avoided because these are also blatant heresies and if believer's do not recognize them as such then they have another spirit that did not come our Lord Jesus Christ. I'll take a common catholic that has little doctrine and puts an emphasis on Mary over against these that profess they know Christ and have fellowship in these heresies that do nothing but leaven the doctrine of Christ and bring condemnation into the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

All have the choice of learning from Jesus who is humble, or from others. We have the choice to worship Jesus, Yeshua, or a theology, and of course all here choose the Lord. YHWH bless all in Yeshua, amen.

 

[Spartacus2211]

HAHAHA.

I have just been banned by RoboOp, for "insulting the CC Administration", and promoting "Catholic heresy".

What a coward, not even the guts to discuss this matter privately.
First he starts this bigoted thread, then he hides behind the curtains and lets his hounds do his dirty work.

RoboOp, you're a coward, a bigot, a hypocrite, and a disgrace to Christianity.


Go ahead little man, ban me again, since you are incapable of confronting people with different point of views.

And to all non-Catholics here who showed compassion, and disgust toward this travesty of a thread:

Thank you, and God bless you always. Fortunately this website has some good people.

C-ya!

 

[Mediate]

The real issue here is not heresy, it is judgement.

The question we should all ask ourselves, whatever denomination we are, is are we doing the right thing? Now is the only certainty that we have. We do not know what might come to pass tomorrow, and we cannot change what has been done yesterday.

So right now, RoboOp, do you believe that excluding a group who have a slightly different interpretation of the Bible (but who believe in God just as much as you do) is a righteous thing to be doing?

And where do you draw the line on 'non-essential issues'? Women preachers, by your strict and literal standards, is an essential issue. Women are to be silent in church and are not allowed authority over a man, haven't you read?

It's hardly fair to pick and choose which parts of the bible are important and which aren't, then condemn someone else for having a different interpretation on verses.

 

[Shyness]

We're not talking about denominational differences on non-essential issues. We're talking about blatant heresy. Like, Mary is sinless like Jesus. Pray to her. Etc. Ummmm yah. These are somewhat more essential issues than Protestant denominational differences such as how to be baptized, free-will vs. predestination, gifts of the Spirit, women preachers, etc.

And with all due respect I must say that it does matter what kind of church you go to. There are some churches that appoint lesbian ministers. Such "churches" should be avoided. Likewise there are also some "churches" that teach you to believe in someone (Mary) as equal to Jesus, perfect, sinless, and being our mediator. Such "churches" should also be avoided.

To tell you the truth, it based on your personal opinion of "heresy." You mentioned about some churches that appoint lesbian ministers but on the other hand, I heard of one baptist church in Florida that hired a convicted sex offender as a pastor so which do you think is more essential? There is no such thing as a flawless church and no church is perfect. Even christianchat.com and its leaders including you are NOT flawless. We all have flaws and are all guilty of sin. Nobody is perfect including you.

 

[Shyness]

To tell you the truth, it based on your personal opinion of "heresy." You mentioned about some churches that appoint lesbian ministers but on the other hand, I heard of one baptist church in Florida that hired a convicted sex offender as a pastor so which do you think is more essential? There is no such thing as a flawless church and no church is perfect. Even christianchat.com and its leaders including you are NOT flawless. We all have flaws and are all guilty of sin. Nobody is perfect including you.

To add, this "pastor" is on probation under the law and was hired shortly after being released from jail.

 

[Shyness]

The best decision any moderator or administrator could do is close this thread.

 

[Shyness]

Plus this horse has been beaten up way too much and it has gotten old ages ago. Please let this fire burn out and do not add any more fuel to it. The fire triangle needs to be broken.

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

If this is not idol worship, it is so dangerously close to it that I don't see how anyone can feel comfortable with it.

 

[JaumeJ]

To add, this "pastor" is on probation under the law and was hired shortly after being released from jail.

You really should consider the victims of the pederasty, God does.

 

[JaumeJ]

The real issue here is not heresy, it is judgement.

The question we should all ask ourselves, whatever denomination we are, is are we doing the right thing? Now is the only certainty that we have. We do not know what might come to pass tomorrow, and we cannot change what has been done yesterday.

So right now, RoboOp, do you believe that excluding a group who have a slightly different interpretation of the Bible (but who believe in God just as much as you do) is a righteous thing to be doing?

And where do you draw the line on 'non-essential issues'? Women preachers, by your strict and literal standards, is an essential issue. Women are to be silent in church and are not allowed authority over a man, haven't you read?

It's hardly fair to pick and choose which parts of the bible are important and which aren't, then condemn someone else for having a different interpretation on verses.

In view of the Inquisitions of the RCC, it seems judgment has proceeded out of your own mouth on this entire issue because of the history of the catholic church's judgment and condemnation of so many individuals. Ironically, the RCC would burn many, torture many, and kill them by various means only to later name many of its victims saints in order to maintain the rank and file of its members and also to gain new members. We will not mention its condemnation of protestantism, which is a no-brainer. There are no issues here, we are taught to know the tree by the fruit it produces, in this instance pederasty, murder, living off the backs of the poor and oppressed, pandering ignorance of the will of God, and much, much more. This goes for any denomination of this same ilk.
Again, all truth comes from above, from YHWH, so the eternal gifts, faith, hope and love. The entire Word of YHWH is to be meditated upon. When one discusses one point of the Word, he should assure himself to have that point well understood in the context it is given, and usually this implies having the entire Word in mind when quoting or basing ones thoughts purported.

 

[loveme1]

By the same token there are some churches that teach you can lose your salvation and that our Lord's shed blood was spilled for only a few who believe, they should likewise be avoided because these are also blatant heresies and if believer's do not recognize them as such then they have another spirit that did not come our Lord Jesus Christ. I'll take a common catholic that has little doctrine and puts an emphasis on Mary over against these that profess they know Christ and have fellowship in these heresies that do nothing but leaven the doctrine of Christ and bring condemnation into the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

For a start it is not you who will decide who is taken.... so why you may be a friend of the common catholic who you say you will take, are you sure you are a friend of Yahshua the Messiah?

Matthew 7

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Exodus 20

20 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill.

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

 

[JaumeJ]

For a start it is not you who will decide who is taken.... so why you may be a friend of the common catholic who you say you will take, are you sure you are a friend of Yahshua the Messiah?

Matthew 7



Exodus 20

20 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill.

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

It gives me great joy seeing the Commandments here as a reminder to those who believe YHWH to observe what He teaches. Some balk at seeing them, but I ask myself, "Why." Certainly they are not too complicated to understand, and certainly they are each a joy to obey. So why do some balk at these commandments? Under grace we have no problem obeying them since it comes natural within the limitless parameters of YHWH's gift of Love. It never ceases to bewilder me how many believe it is wrong to teach them. All blessing from Yahweh my sister, amen..............

 

[Mediate]

JuameJ you are a hypocrite. Yet again an issue has been brought up as some kind of 'my church is nothing like those horrid horrid catholics'. Let me tell you something about the protestant church . The protestant church has supported the killings of thousands of people too throughout the ages. Religious hatred is dangerous, JuameJ, and people like you are even more so. A blind self righteous bigot that thinks he is above others. You, most definitely, are not.

This thread is pointless. It bears no fruit because blind, misunderstanding, single minded people have no concept of anything that is outside their own shallow minds.

 

[Mediate]

I have noticed one thing about this site. When someone disagrees with your view, you either throw doctrine at them like some robotic defence, or tell them they should 'meditate on the bible', as if they haven't already done so.

Trying to bring peace to a pack of self righteous wolves is a futile exercise destined for failure, because you are unwilling to listen to the opposite view. You come with the biased, and actually dangerous idea that 'my way is the right way'.