Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[kennethcadwell]

Romans 3:23 or 10-17 does not disqualify Mary from being "Full of Grace". And it still does not answer the question. Who or what time period after the reformation did "Bible-Christians" invent the "Mary is a sinner" theory? Or has all of Christendom been wrong until such time? I already gave the answer. It's a man made insult to Our Lord's mother, not because it's true, but because out of the long list of anti-Catholic falsehoods, that one is particularly offensive to Catholics, including Jesus Himself. It's spiritual sadism. My point is this: how can any Christian who accepts notions pulled out of thin air 300 years ago declare anyone else to be in heresy?

Mary was a sinner, no human is perfect and all fall short do to sin.
Jesus our Lord in the flesh is the only one without sin.

 

[Maynard]

That is true just as you only gave half the scripture you just said.

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Exactly! My point went right over your head that I was demonstrating Roger's method. An all too common Protestant method.

 

[Maynard]

MARTIN LUTHER - ABOUT MARY

Romans 3:23 or 10-17 does not disqualify Mary from being "Full of Grace". And it still does not answer the question. Who or what time period after the reformation did "Bible-Christians" invent the "Mary is a sinner" theory? Or has all of Christendom been wrong until such time? I already gave the answer. It's a man made insult to Our Lord's mother, not because it's true, but because out of the long list of anti-Catholic falsehoods, that one is particularly offensive to Catholics, including Jesus Himself. It's spiritual sadism. My point is this: how can any Christian who accepts notions pulled out of thin air 300 years ago declare anyone else to be in heresy?

Yep.

Protestants today balk at the idea of Mary being free from stain of original sin, her perpetual virginity, and that Jesus had no siblings. Or even that she was anything but just another woman (a mantra repeated daily around here), deserving of no expressed special reverence. Though the father of their Protestant faith, Martin Luther, declared Mary's perpetual virginity, and also that she is worthy of the highest praise after God, and should be extraordinarily revered. Martin Luther also taught that Mary is truly the Mother of God.

Mary is free from the stain of original sin.

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin"
- Martin Luther (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527)

"She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil."
- Martin Luther (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522)

Martin Luther on Mary's Perpetual Virginity:

"Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that."
- Martin Luther {Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539)}


Martin Luther commenting on the false teachings arising in Protestantism in his lifetime concerning the denial of Mary's perpetual virginity, teachings which Protestants erroneously attribute to Luther, which he himself calls lies.
Luther also refers to Mary here as the mother of God.

"A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ. . ."
- Martin Luther {That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523)}


Martin Luther says that scripture does not say or indicate that Mary later lost her virginity, as most Protestants today mistakenly contend . .

"When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom."
- Martin Luther {That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523)}


Jesus had no siblings...

"Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers."
- Martin Luther {Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539)}


MARY, THE MOTHER OF GOD...

"It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of GOD, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother."
- Martin Luther (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)


He again declares Mary the Mother of God...

". . . she is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God. . . . it is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
- Martin Luther {Sermon on John 14. 16}


Mary, the Mother of God, and mother of all Christians...

"Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother."
- Martin Luther (Sermon, Christmas, 1529)



Concerning the veneration of Mary...

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
- Martin Luther (Sermon, September 1, 1522)

"She is the highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures."
- Martin Luther (Sermon, Christmas, 1531)

"One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God."
- Martin Luther (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)



Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee,
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus!

Glory to God in the highest!

 

[TheBlackRider]

But Martin Luther is not GOD, nor did he write the Bible. And he was just a man....-_- so i fail to see how all his quotes pertain to the situation?

Romans 3:23: For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

And I'm sorry, but Jesus DID have siblings.....There is NO passage in the BIBLE that states that Mary was a virgin for life. She is not the mother of God, but the mother of the Son of God, and only of his physical body.

Honestly, though...i don't see the point of all this debate. So long as everyone realizes that
1. Mary was NOT a perfect being--there is no such being besides Christ
2. She worshiped Christ and was one of his faithful followers (she did not count herself higher than Jesus)
3. Jesus Christ is the ONLY path to salvation (Not through hail Mary's and whatnot) and it is belief in HIM that gives us eternal life.

God bless you all!

 

[ThomistColin]

Repeating Romans 3:23 where Paul says by inspiration of the Holy Spirit All men including Mary are sinners, all have come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:10 There is none righteous no not one all the way to verse 17.

You cannot deflect this as a doctrine of men but you must see it as doctrine given by God.

If you have a problem it is with God and not me.

Now tell me how a Roman Catholic is saved. If you can.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If you take that literally then Jesus was a sinner because He was fully man.

By grace through faith and obedience to Christ is the way of salvation. Not by faith alone, even Scripture says that.

Roger, you distort the truth. Anyone who enters purgatory has salvation. No one who enters purgatory is sent to Hell.

 

[ThomistColin]

But Martin Luther is not GOD, nor did he write the Bible. And he was just a man....-_- so i fail to see how all his quotes pertain to the situation?

Romans 3:23: For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

And I'm sorry, but Jesus DID have siblings.....There is NO passage in the BIBLE that states that Mary was a virgin for life. She is not the mother of God, but the mother of the Son of God, and only of his physical body.

Honestly, though...i don't see the point of all this debate. So long as everyone realizes that
1. Mary was NOT a perfect being--there is no such being besides Christ
2. She worshiped Christ and was one of his faithful followers (she did not count herself higher than Jesus)
3. Jesus Christ is the ONLY path to salvation (Not through hail Mary's and whatnot) and it is belief in HIM that gives us eternal life.

God bless you all!

If Mary is only mother of the human part of Christ, then Christ is part man and part God, making Him less than God. Jesus is fully man and fully God. 100% both. Therefore, Mary could not have given birth to part of Christ, but to the whole of Christ. Seriously, what's next? Denying the virginal birth of Christ?

 

[kepha]

If Mary is only mother of the human part of Christ, then Christ is part man and part God, making Him less than God. Jesus is fully man and fully God. 100% both. Therefore, Mary could not have given birth to part of Christ, but to the whole of Christ. Seriously, what's next? Denying the virginal birth of Christ?

But Martin Luther is not GOD, nor did he write the Bible. And he was just a man....-_- so i fail to see how all his quotes pertain to the situation?

It pertains because you accept Luther's "sola scriptura" and "sola fide" heresy, but reject his statements about Mary because it does not fit your man made system. That's why this thread title is so absurd.

Romans 3:23: For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I don't dispute this verse, but only ONE human was declared by God to be Full of Grace. Take it up with Him. Pounding the Romans 3:23 drum won't work. Here's why:
Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

And I'm sorry, but Jesus DID have siblings.....

Yea, the Davinci Code by Dan Brown agrees with you. It's another post reformist invention.

There is NO passage in the BIBLE that states that Mary was a virgin for life. She is not the mother of God, but the mother of the Son of God, and only of his physical body.

Honestly, though...i don't see the point of all this debate.

So it's OK to pull doctrines out of thin air that have no place in historical Christianity, not even affirmed by the reformers, yet open a thread called "Catholic heresy". What a joke.

So long as everyone realizes that
1. Mary was NOT a perfect being--there is no such being besides Christ

Mary was FULL of perfect Grace. To deny that is to deny your own premise of what grace means.

2. She worshiped Christ and was one of his faithful followers (she did not count herself higher than Jesus)

Catholics do not and never have made such a claim.

3. Jesus Christ is the ONLY path to salvation (Not through hail Mary's and whatnot) and it is belief in HIM that gives us eternal life.

"Jesus Christ is the ONLY path to salvation and it is belief in HIM that gives us eternal life" is a Catholic doctrine you borrowed from us. "...blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus..." is the center of the Hail Mary prayer. It comes from Luke 1:42 but in here it's anti-biblical.

 

[Ziale]

I learned in life that you have to give the opportunity to other people beliefs give their opinion, after they are comfortable in their beliefs bring the Bible and show them little by little what is writing in the bible and how Jesus loves them, do not hit them (figure speech) with the bible with something that they will not understand give time to Jesus enter in their hearts.

 

[kepha]

If Mary is only mother of the human part of Christ, then Christ is part man and part God, making Him less than God. Jesus is fully man and fully God. 100% both. Therefore, Mary could not have given birth to part of Christ, but to the whole of Christ. Seriously, what's next? Denying the virginal birth of Christ?

Yes, which is exactly what's happened. I find many Protestants, and even Evangelicals today are Nestorian, Monosyphite, or Monothelite. Especially when you bring up Mother of God. It's amazing how far they go to destroy Mary, they end up committing grave Christological heresies in the process.

Before discussing Mary it's preferable to discuss Christology first, being one cannot understand the doctrines about Mary if they cannot understand the doctrines about her son.

"The Marian devotions aren't even from the early church.”

“Mariology is very largely influenced by the church of the Middle Ages"

We see a beginning of high thought of Mary as the New Eve and Ark of the Covenenant with Iraneus, Justin Martyr, and St. Polycarp.

The biggest Christological heresies Protestants get into is on the issue of Mary being the Mother of God, because then they claim Christ is either 2 persons, or he just has one nature, or one will, I could go on and on. That's another reason why the thread title is so absurd.

Acts 1:12-15 - the gathering of Jesus' "brothers" amounts to about 120. Mary would have to be pregnant for 90 consecutive years to produce that many "brothers", if we follow the abuses of scripture used to justify Mary having other children. There are numerous passages where "brother" or "brethren" does not mean blood relations.

An important historical document which supports the teaching of Mary’s perpetual virginity is the Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably less than sixty years after the conclusion of Mary’s earthly life (around A.D. 120), when memories of her life were still vivid in the minds of many.
According to the world-renowned patristics scholar, Johannes Quasten: "The principal aim of the whole writing [Protoevangelium of James] is to prove the perpetual and inviolate virginity of Mary before, in, and after the birth of Christ" (Patrology, 1:120–1).
Mary: Ever Virgin | Catholic Answers

 

[Jackson123]

If you take that literally then Jesus was a sinner because He was fully man.

By grace through faith and obedience to Christ is the way of salvation. Not by faith alone, even Scripture says that.

Roger, you distort the truth. Anyone who enters purgatory has salvation. No one who enters purgatory is sent to Hell.

Jesus is fully God that why He is not sin.

Mary is not God that why she is a sinner.

 

[Jackson123]

If Mary is only mother of the human part of Christ, then Christ is part man and part God, making Him less than God. Jesus is fully man and fully God. 100% both. Therefore, Mary could not have given birth to part of Christ, but to the whole of Christ. Seriously, what's next? Denying the virginal birth of Christ?

You said Mary is part of Christ, Part ? How many percent Jesus, and how many percent human is in her body?

 

[ThomistColin]

Hail, full of grace. That's Scripture. If you go to the Greek, it can also be translated as, "Rejoice, you who are perfected in grace." Either way, the messenger of God greets Mary as if in exhultation, and then says she is full of grace. She is the only human ever called this. Now, tell me, if one is "full" of grace, would that not mean that she was "perfect?"

 

[blue_ladybug]

Come on! Mary was not part of all men? In context all men is everybody both men and women.

The heresy of Rome is no laughing matter to me. You know this doctrine leads to the assumption of Mary? Rome teaches that Mary did not die but was assumed into heaven. For if Mary was without sin she could never die.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Of course she's part of all men. However, Romans 3:23 does NOT include the words "including Mary" as part of the verse. Yes, she was part of mankind. Yes, she was a sinner, and yes she DID die because she was a HUMAN! Romans 3:23: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Don't add to or take away from scripture. The verse does not say "for all, INCLUDING MARY, have sinned," even though we know she IS included because she was a sinner and she did die.

 

[Jackson123]

Hail, full of grace. That's Scripture. If you go to the Greek, it can also be translated as, "Rejoice, you who are perfected in grace." Either way, the messenger of God greets Mary as if in exhultation, and then says she is full of grace. She is the only human ever called this. Now, tell me, if one is "full" of grace, would that not mean that she was "perfect?"

Only God is perfect. Do you believe she is God?

 

[notuptome]

If you take that literally then Jesus was a sinner because He was fully man.

This is why the virgin birth is critical. Jesus having no earthly father was born without sin. No other man can honestly claim that distinction.

By grace through faith and obedience to Christ is the way of salvation. Not by faith alone, even Scripture says that.

Scripture says by grace true and it is through faith true but do not corrupt grace by making it contingent on obedience. Faith comes from God and grace is given by God if we are obedient as we should be it is because of what God has done not what we have done.

Roger, you distort the truth. Anyone who enters purgatory has salvation. No one who enters purgatory is sent to Hell.

No I clarify the truth. There is no such thing as purgatory that is a Catholic lie. The fires that await are eternal not temporary. Gods grace forgives all sin and man has nothing to do with it. I cannot pay or repay what grace has done. Those who have salvation enter into the presence of Christ not into a temporary holding place to be burned with the fires of hell until Gods wrath is satisfied. Christ fulfilled all that Gods righteousness and judgment demanded.

If only you would listen to the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ThomistColin]

Only God is perfect. Do you believe she is God?

When God perfects you, are you not perfect? Mary was perfected, hence she was perfect. God is the only being to be perfect without being perfected.

 

[ThomistColin]

Roger, you don't clarify truth. You attack purgatory, lie about what we believe, and when you are corrected you respond that it doesn't even exist. You sir, do not stand for the cause of Christ. You stand for your own. Your rage is palpable.

There is no Hellfire in Purgatory.

The burning fire of Purgatory is Christ Himself, His Love and Power, His Blood and Glory, washing away every hint of imperfection.

Purgatory is the purgation of fallenness.
Purgatory is the place of perfecting.
Purgatory is for the SAVED ALONE!

All who deny Christ, go to Hell.

All who are saved will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, upon being perfected, for nothing imperfect may enter the Kingdom.

 

[notuptome]

Jesus said;
"Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist;"
(Mat. 11:11)

Jesus was born of a woman. Is John the Baptist then greater than Jesus?
Of course not.

Picking and choosing your verses, as you do, with no regard for the body of scripture, only serves to twist the teachings of Christ for your own hateful and utterly ignorant cause, which btw is certainly not the "cause for Christ", Roger.

John 3:18-21 you are returning to the darkness of your works. You are not comfortable in the light of truth.

You read into scriptures the Catholic heresy when you need to read out of the scriptures the pure truth of God.

Mary needed the blood of her Son Jesus Christ to cleanse her of her sins just like you and I do. The gospel is not about Mary but about Jesus Christ. It is not about the Catholic church so called but about Jesus Christ.

As long as religious men cling to their own righteousness they will perish. All men from the pope down to the lowest peon who sees himself equal to all other men will perish in their own merits because they reject the finished work of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Roger, you don't clarify truth. You attack purgatory, lie about what we believe, and when you are corrected you respond that it doesn't even exist. You sir, do not stand for the cause of Christ. You stand for your own. Your rage is palpable.

There is no Hellfire in Purgatory.

The burning fire of Purgatory is Christ Himself, His Love and Power, His Blood and Glory, washing away every hint of imperfection.

Purgatory is the purgation of fallenness.
Purgatory is the place of perfecting.
Purgatory is for the SAVED ALONE!

All who deny Christ, go to Hell.

All who are saved will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, upon being perfected, for nothing imperfect may enter the Kingdom.

Purgatory is a Roman Catholic lie straight out of the pit of hell.

The bible says we are made the righteousness of Christ by Gods grace not of works and not of burning in fire. 2 Corinthians 5:21.

It is you under the guise of meekness who leads souls to hell. Giving them not the pure word of God but the fables and myths of Rome.

All those who are in Christ are perfect as Christ is perfect.

Rage no...righteous indignation probably yes. That is nothing compared to what God has in store for those who promote these unbiblical lies and lead many souls into eternal condemnation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ThomistColin]

Roger,

May the Lord bless you and keep you. Because I'm done arguing with you. You won't even admit when you lied about our faith, whether you agreed or not. God bless.

Yours in Christ,
Colin