Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[fordman]

You just made my case against you stronger by twisting what the Scriptures say to justify your Worship of Mary as your God.

Ha-Ha....In your dreams pal! All I did was to show you what the passages logically in Rom.3:23; 9-12 really meant and are not to be taken literally. What your problem is..... to quote a line from Jack Nicholson in the movie A Few Good Men...... "You can't handel the truth!!!!!" And as far as your same ol' broken record that I worship Mary, I am a cradel Catholic and have never worshiped The Blessed Virgin Mary.... never! And never has any Catholic I know. Now if your Crystal Ball tells you differnt.... you might want to take it to your local Sorcerer and have it looked at, for it to tell you that I do, it has to be on the fritz!!

"The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."----- A.B. Fulton J Sheen

If Sola Scriptura is NOT what God teaches then what other source has Truths that God does not Have?

Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

If God is not our only source for the Truth, then tell me Fordman what other source has Truths that God does not have?

What a silly question, God is all truthful

God is Omniscient.
God knows everything and His knowledge is complete. This is called His omniscience. Isaiah said that Israel had not seen everything that God had planned (Isaiah 40:28). Job said that God had all knowledge (Job 37:16). The psalmist said that God’s understanding was infinite (Psalm 147:5). The New Testament also claims God’s omniscience in 1 John 3:20 and Romans 11:33.

Yes He is....And something else you should remember, there always will be a mystery as to how God, who is infinite and beyond time and space, and thereby knows past, present and future at once, interacts with us, poor human beings, who are limited by time and space, and do not know the future.

If God has all knowledge then you cannot say Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine.

Yes, God does have all knowledge, but you do not. All I am saying is that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is nowhere to be found in Scripture, and you have yet to prove otherwise.

You have just proved my point Fordman that you Catholics do follow Mary as your God and you do believe God is powerless and needed the help of Mary to keep Jesus free from sin.

Lol.... again, only in your dreams.

This is why today i truly believe the Catholics have walked away from God to Worship and serve Mary as their God.

What you believe is of no significance when it comes to the Catholic faith. Sorry.

This is why Pope Francis believes Muslims are our brothers in Christ!

Show your source where he said that Muslims are our brothers in Christ.

This is why Pope John Paul II Worshiped ans served Mary as his God.

Really........ So tell me how you know whats in a persons heart and mind, did your Crystal Ball tell you this? Sounds a tad bit like Sorcery to me. {rolling eyes}
　
　

Pax Christi

 

[fordman]

God CLEARLY said: Romans 3:10 [SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

[/SUP][SUP]
Once again Mike, One can plainly see Paul is quoting Psalms 14:2-3, so it's important to examine the context from which the citation came in order to fully gasp its meaning. Go back and read my post 9194.

Romans 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, For ALL have sinned and there is none righteous.

This proves you do HATE what God says in the Scriptures.

In reguards to this passage, I see how you conveniently side-stepped the three senerios I asked you about back on my post #9194. Care to take another crack at it? Lets see.

Would you agree Mike, that even in the world today we do in fact find millions of people who have not sinned, and even some who never will, like a baby in it's mothers womb? Do you believe that a baby not yet born to be a person? If so, would you also agree that this person has not sinned? I would hope that you are not pro-abortion! Lets remember what Paul says in Rom.9:11. "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call..."

And how about children below the age of reason, do you also believe that they too have sinned?


And how about people that are vegetative or severely mentally-handicapped? People that were born with these conditions/ Do you believe them to be people, and fall under the catagory as "all?" So by your own admission Mike, you believe all of the people in the examples I gave above are sinners? You still want to stand pat with your way of thinking that theses verses literally means "ALL?" Which would include "ALL" babies in the womb, "ALL" Children below the age of reason, and "ALL" people that are in a vegetative state or severely mentally-handicapped? Wow!!!!! How you going to explain that when your day comes???

You can twist the Scriptures all you want and call God a liar, but beware you are not fighting against me, you are fighting against the Holy Spirit and will not be allowed to enter into Heaven.

I know my questions are making you feel uncomfortable, and you are only saying this out of frustration, but you don't really have a whole lot of room to talk my friend. {rolling eyes}
　
　

Pax Christi

[/SUP]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ha-Ha....In your dreams pal! All I did was to show you what the passages logically in Rom.3:23; 9-12 really meant and are not to be taken literally.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (Rom.3:23)

The scripture above is most definitely to be taken literally, as there is nothing figurative or symbolic about it. It means exactly what it says. That is, no one meets God's standards of righteousness, no not one! Pope included.

Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

Scripture alone is the source of God's truth. We already know what Jesus said about the traditions of men. Ex-Cathedra means absolutely nothing!

"Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that." (Mk.7:13)

Roman catholic traditions made dogma by the various Roman counsels, opposes God's word if anything. Roman Catholicism is Pagan to the core. Now before anyone gets upset, I said the Roman Catholic religious system is pagan, as God does have people within her and is calling them to come out of her so that they will not partake in any of her judgments that God has planned during that last 3 1/2 before the Lord arrives. In regards to her being pagan, we can start with that Egyptian obelisk that is sitting out on the font porch of the Vatican of what is supposed to be the true church of Christ? There is absolutely no apologetic, no argument for justifying a pagan artifact to be sitting out in that square and I omit Peter because he is not and never was the first pope of the RCC.

Yes, God does have all knowledge, but you do not. All I am saying is that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is nowhere to be found in Scripture, and you have yet to prove otherwise.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

In the Scripture above, did you see anything mentioned about man's traditions or any other source as the word of God?


Foreword:
Mary, the mother of Jesus, is blessed from generation to generation, for she was chosen by God to bring the Lord into the world as one of us, so as to be a human being could pay the penalty for our sins. She is blessed! Mary is not the Mary of the RCC, but originated from the Babylonian pagan religions, such as the queen of heaven worship, which was overlaid onto Mary. Same thing with the mother and son worship, such as simiramis and Tamuz and Isis and Horus, which again was overlaid onto Mary and Jesus.


The worship of Mary is Catholic dogma: - Although for hundreds of years the Roman Catholic Church has given honor and adoration to Mary that the Scriptures do not, during the past fifty years, one of the most important trends in the Catholic Church has been an even greater emphasis upon the place of Mary. She is readily referred to as "holy," the "Mother of God" (official Catholic dogma in 431 A.D.), with prayers to her proclaimed in 600 A.D., and has been dubbed the "Co-Redeemer," thereby making her an object of idolatrous worship (e.g., the Rosary has ten prayers to Mary for each two directed to God). In 1923, Pope Pius XI sanctioned Pope Benedict XV's (1914-1922) pronouncement that Mary suffered with Christ, and that with Him, she redeemed the human race. And Pope Pius XII officially designated Mary the "Queen of Heaven" and "Queen of the World."

Catholics claim not only that Mary was perfectly sinless from conception, even as Jesus was (doctrine of the "Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary," proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in 1854 -- "Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... continue to venerate, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God, conceived without original sin."), but that the reason she never sinned at any time during her life was because she was unable to sin (cf. Lk. 1:46,47; Rom. 3:10,23; 5:12; Heb. 4:15; 1 Jn. 1:8,10). Catholics also believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin (cf. Ps. 69:8; Matt. 1:24,25; 13:54-56; Mk. 6:3; Jn. 7:5), and that she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven shortly after her death (doctrine of the "Assumption of the Virgin Mary," declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950). Finally, she was given the title "Mother of the Church" in 1965. The consequence of all this veneration of Mary, in effect, establishes her authority above Christ's! Rome says, "He came to us through Mary and we must go to Him through her." All this is so obviously idolatrous, one wonders why Catholics take offense when their religious affections are called cultic.

- There are some Roman Catholic observers that continue to believe that Mary has still not officially been proclaimed "Co-Redeemer with Christ." In fact, the premier issue of the Roman Catholic publication Catholic Heritage displayed a front page with the title: "Mary, Mother of the Church." In a Question and Answer column the question is asked, "At the foot of the cross, Mary shared in the mystery of the passion. True or False? Answer: True. Mary united her sorrows to those of her Son. The sorrowful and immaculate heart of Mary bled with her Son for all of mankind. For this reason, we invoke her under the title of Co-Redeemer." (Emphasis added.)

For more information regarding the RCC, read Rev.17 & 18, for she is Mystery Babylon.

 

[fordman]

You are wasting your time MikeHenderson with Fordman and the rest of the Catholics. The Catholics do not like what God has said in the Scriptures about Mary being a sinner. The Catholics get around the Scriptures from God by declaring their TRADITIONS have more Authority and more Truth in them then God does.

Hmmmmm...... Like your ol' buddy Mike, I've noticed you too like to quote Rom. 3:23,9-12 in your belief that "ALL" have sinned. Would you agree that even in the world today we do in fact find millions of people who have not sinned, and even some who never will? If not, maybe you'd like to answer the same questions I put forth to your ol' buddy.
　

Do you too beleive that "ALL" babies in the womb, "ALL" children below the age of reason, and "ALL" people that are in a vegetative state or severely mentally-handicapped are sinners? Now like you say what Scripture says in these passages.... ALL means ALL!
　

Pax Christi

 

[Ahwatukee]

[SUP]

Would you agree Mike, that even in the world today we do in fact find millions of people who have not sinned, and even some who never will, like a baby in it's mothers womb?

[/SUP][SUP]Talk about side-stepping! All people from every generation have inherited sin original sin from Adam and Eve. For Scripture says:

"[/SUP]Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--" (Rom.5:12)

As far as children go, those in the womb and those who have not yet come to an age of accountability, Scripture says the following:

"For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy."

You don't get it! All people have inherited the original sin handed down. The grace of God is with those of the unborn and those who have not reached an accountability, which only God knows.

Mikehenderson, don't be concerned with what this person is saying. He/she is a twister and distorter of the truth of God's word. But Pax Christi, if you confess and repent of these things, the Lord will forgive you, for these are false teachings.

 

[fordman]

Well, I've proved otherwise in my post #9193-9194 on this thread, go back and read it, then get back to me.

And as far as you saying this passage should be taken literally, you are then saying you woud not agree that even in the world today we do in fact find millions of people who have not sinned, and even some who never will? If so, you are saying that "ALL" babies in the womb, "ALL" children below the age of reason, and "ALL" people that are in a vegetative state or severely mentally-handicapped are sinners? Now like you say what Scripture says in these passages.... ALL means ALL!


p.s. yes even the pope is a sinner, he'd even tell ya so! Tell us something we don't already know. Sheesh!

　

Pax Christi

 

[fordman]

[SUP]
[SUP]Talk about side-stepping! All people from every generation have inherited sin original sin from Adam and Eve. For Scripture says: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--" (Rom.5:12)

Hmmmmm... You do relize that Original Sin is Catholic Doctrine don't you? Yet you use it in your argument against the Catholic Doctrine of Mary's sinlessness. For you to believe in Original Sin, you must also believe as we Catholics do that Baptisim washes away Original Sin. This is why we Baptize infants. To get the whole understanding of our Catholic belief of Original Sin, I suggest going to an official online version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 7, Chapter 1 389-418.

As far as children go, those in the womb and those who have not yet come to an age of accountability, Scripture says the following: "For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy."

And St. Paul also says in Rom.9:11.... "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call..."

And how about those people that have been born vegetative or severely mentally-handicapped? Can't help but noticed you didn't comment on them.... How come, side-stepping?

You don't get it! All people have inherited the original sin handed down. The grace of God is with those of the unborn and those who have not reached an accountability, which only God knows.

Oh yeah.....I get it loud and clear! You like to to pick and choose Catholic Doctrine/Beliefs and try to pit them against other Catholic Doctrine and beliefs to try and futher your arguments. But sorry to inform you my friend...... it just dosen't/can't work that way! for you to do that diserves not only a "Sheesh...." but some "rolling eyes" and shaking of ones head left to right to go with it! But hey...... don't feel bad or alone, because your buddy Mikehenderson tried doing the same thing back on page 460, #9191.

Mikehenderson, don't be concerned with what this person is saying. He/she is a twister and distorter of the truth of God's word.

Ha-Ha!! pretty sure I've just established who has been doing the twisting and side-stepping around here! Lol!

But Pax Christi, if you confess and repent of these things, the Lord will forgive you, for these are false teachings.

Ahhhh.... if you look real hard, you'd see my username is not Pax Christi, but fordman. Besides, I have no reason to repent for setting you straight in reguards to Catholic Doctrine or beliefs. As a matter of fact..... you should be thanking me.
　



Pax Christi
(Peace in Christ)





[/SUP][/SUP]

 

[fordman]

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Ah yes....Tim.3:16-17, the passage most commonly brought up by Evangelicals and Fundamentalists to try and justify Sola Scriptura. You wouldn't be the first on this forum that claims 2 Tim. 3:16–17 Scripture is sufficient as a rule of faith. But an examination of the verse in context shows that it doesn’t claim that at all; it only claims Scripture is "profitable" (Greek: ophelimos) that is, helpful. Many things can be profitable for moving one toward a goal, without being sufficient in getting one to the goal. Notice that the passage nowhere even hints that Scripture is "sufficient"—which is, of course, exactly what you (and others here) think the passage means.

In the Scripture above, did you see anything mentioned about man's traditions or any other source as the word of God?

Hmmmm.... Well, lets see. If you look at the context of 2 Tim. 3:16–17 is Paul laying down a guideline for Timothy to make use of "Scripture and Tradition" in his ministry as a bishop. Paul says, "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Tim. 3:14–17). In verse 14, Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings—the traditions—that he received from the apostle Paul. This echoes Paul’s reminder of the value of oral tradition in 1:13–14, "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you haveheard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (RSV), and ". . . what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13). Only after this is Scripture mentioned as "profitable" for Timothy’s ministry.

There have been others within this forum that have brought up other verses to try and "prove" the sufficiency of Scripture. However, just like 2Tim. 3:16-17 not one uses the word "sufficient"—each one implies profitability or usefulness, and many are given at the same time as an exhortation to hold fast to the oral teaching of our Lord and the apostles. The thing to keep in mind is that nowhere does the Bible say, "Scripture alone is sufficient," and nowhere does the Bible imply it.
　
　


Pax Christi

 

[Mec99]

Where in the Scriptures Fordman does God say Baptism washes away the sins of anyone?

Ephesians 1:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Romans 5:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Our sins HAVE been forgiven by the Blood of Jesus and we HAVE been Justified in His sight by the Blood of Jesus.

The problem with the Catholic Church today is they teach the Doctrines of Satan over the Truths from the Scriptures.

Original sin is NOT from the Catholic Church.

Romans 5:12-21
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
[SUP]13 [/SUP] (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Clearly God says ALL sinned, even Mary was a sinner Fordman which make you and the Catholic Church Liars!

This passage is talking about Original sin. Why do you Catholics love to lie and say the Doctrine of Original sin was from the Catholic Church? Do you NOT know Fordman God will Judge you for the lies you teach?

 

[Mec99]

Do you NOT know Fordman that because of the lies you teach that God cannot allow you to enter into Heaven?

Matthew 7:15-23
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

You Fordman are a False Prophet teaching the lies of Satan as Truths from God.


1 Timothy 4:1-3
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.


The Catholic Church forbids their Priests from marrying. They also forbid the eating of Meat on Fridays and made it a Mortal sin if you did.

You HAVE departed from the Faith Fordman to follow the deceiving Spirits in the Catholic Church!

 

[fordman]

Where in the Scriptures Fordman does God say Baptism washes away the sins of anyone?

I'll addesss your questions when you have answerd my questions I put forth to you on post #9204 on this page. I will repeat them:

"Like your ol' buddy Mike, I've noticed you too like to quote Rom. 3:23,9-12 in your belief that "ALL" have sinned. Would you agree that even in the world today we do in fact find millions of people who have not sinned, and even some who never will? If not, maybe you'd like to answer the same questions I put forth to your ol' buddy.
　

Do you too beleive that "ALL" babies in the womb, "ALL" children below the age of reason, and "ALL" people that are in a vegetative state or severely mentally-handicapped are sinners? Now like you say what Scripture says in these passages.... ALL means ALL!
　

Pax Christi "

 

[jamie26301]

Do you too beleive that "ALL" babies in the womb, "ALL" children below the age of reason, and "ALL" people that are in a vegetative state or severely mentally-handicapped are sinners? Now like you say what Scripture says in these passages.... ALL means ALL!

The point he is getting at here is with the absolute application of this Romans passage, that all are born in sin, and some go so far as to say that ALL must have faith before they die or they go to hell. With this in mind, what follows is the embrace of infant damnation - something that most people can't imagine.

He is saying that if you believe an age of accountability argument, or you believe that someone who is mentally incapable to make a decision to follow Christ is yet covered by the grace of Christ, that by your very definition of this verse contradicts those sentiments - that these warrant hell for not having surrendered their lives to Christ. You can't say it absolutely applies to all except these or these... it's not longer absolute, then.

And to then ignore that is academically dishonest. Because you can't say one minute "ALL with no exceptions" one minute and then "but these are exempt" the next. Your own argument, standing alone, contradicts itself... unless you just let go of the idea that the passage is absolute, then arguing such about infants and mentally handicapped being saved regardless is then consistent with your belief.

 

[Mec99]

If a person is mentally incapable to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, then that person is also mentally incapable of deciding if they should eat or not eat, or breathe or not breathe. They are a vegetable unable to make any decisions.

Its God who says if they will enter into Heaven or not. This is nothing more than a ploy by people to justify they rejection of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Look very carefully at their argument. They are using the excuse of people who are mentally incapable of accepting Jesus as an excuse for them to do anything they desire and still enter into Heaven.

It does not matter what God does with those who are mentally incapable of accepting Him.

What matter is YOU! You will have NO excuse for what you do!

There are many people, especially Catholics, who believe they can get the better of God by playing their mind games!

It will not work Fordman and Jamie26301, God WILL hold you accountable for your sins you refuse to stop doing. Like the sin of Worshiping and serving Mary as your God. For this sin God will cast both of you into the Lake of Fire.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'll addesss your questions when you have answerd my questions I put forth to you on post #9204 on this page. I will repeat them:

"Like your ol' buddy Mike, I've noticed you too like to quote Rom. 3:23,9-12 in your belief that "ALL" have sinned. Would you agree that even in the world today we do in fact find millions of people who have not sinned, and even some who never will? If not, maybe you'd like to answer the same questions I put forth to your ol' buddy.
　

Do you too beleive that "ALL" babies in the womb, "ALL" children below the age of reason, and "ALL" people that are in a vegetative state or severely mentally-handicapped are sinners? Now like you say what Scripture says in these passages.... ALL means ALL!
　

Pax Christi "

in adam all die.

That is scripture. deny it, and you deny scripture. All those babies are born dead in sin,,

Now. What will save them if they die? Scripture does not say, we can just trust God that he will save or reject based on his righteous judgment, an dnot on our thoughts or feelings

 

[notuptome]

Classic argument based on a red herring. The matter is not what will God do with those who are innocent by virtue of their age or lack of mental capacity. The issue at hand is what will or what must those who have the capacity do to be saved?

God is merciful and a God of grace but God is sovereign. God is within His sovereign right to condemn all men and His perfect justice demands that His sovereign right be satisfied. God saves by grace because man cannot rise to the level of perfection Gods perfect justice demands.

Instead of hiding behind aborted babies and small children how about we face up to our personal responsibilities to God? It is not about what someone else is doing but what are you doing. God deals with and saves souls on an individual basis only. No corporate salvation is taught in the bible.

Catholics may claim all the day long that the do not worship Mary but their actions betray them openly. You cannot walk into a catholic church and not trip over statues and art work portraying Mary in highly lauded scenes. Enter the average protestant church and make a comparison. Even Jesus is not seen in statues and art work in the protestant church. Jesus is seen in the hearts and faces of the people in the churches.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Mec99]

So very true notuptome.

The Catholics HATE the Scriptures that go against everything the Catholics have been brainwashed by the Popes to believe!

They play mind games and word games with God hoping that God HAS to allow them in Heaven.

I tell you again, Worshiping , Serving, Praying to, Praying the Rosary to Mary WILL keep all Catholics from entering into Heaven.

Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

It will do you Catholics well to Heed these Words of God!

 

[jamie26301]

Classic argument based on a red herring. The matter is not what will God do with those who are innocent by virtue of their age or lack of mental capacity. The issue at hand is what will or what must those who have the capacity do to be saved?

So, Romans doesn't apply to ALL, but those who have capacity? That's the point - it's not absolute. The point is it being leveled as "ALL" have sinned to condemn the sinlessness of Mary (which I don't believe she was sinless), and it was being applied absolutely without caveat, like those with capacity. But that wasn't the argument - Scripture was being used in an extreme measure to oppose an extreme position... when Scripture is clearly not extreme in that topic, but hyperbole.

God is merciful and a God of grace but God is sovereign. God is within His sovereign right to condemn all men and His perfect justice demands that His sovereign right be satisfied. God saves by grace because man cannot rise to the level of perfection Gods perfect justice demands.

Well I don't want to get into a "what is sin" "what is justification" etc argument. Only that what God said to begin with is half the battle, before even interpreting what He said.

Instead of hiding behind aborted babies and small children how about we face up to our personal responsibilities to God?

Have you ever had a loved one or friend with mental illness? I have bipolar. There are things I own up to - AND there are things that are literally beyond my control via brain activity. That's why I have to take meds. Because my behavior is partly out of my control, quite literally because of the physical activity of my brain.

So how do I stand before God, in this respect? Am I responsible for what I've done when mentally unstable? Because overall, I DO have the capacity, but not absolutely, not all the time. Aborted children, or children who die young COULD have the capacity later if they hadn't died. It's not hiding behind anything... it's the argument that these people are also humans. It's the argument that if you are going to level a Scripture in absolute fashion in respect to another human, then understand the ramifications of doing so. Not offering this caveate, or explaining the position fully, is a very good indication of bias and agenda than actual discussion.

It is not about what someone else is doing but what are you doing.

And the point is, what if "you" was an infant? What if "you" was someone who was in an accident that resulted in a vegetative state before she/he accepted the Lord - yet technically still alive?

God deals with and saves souls on an individual basis only. No corporate salvation is taught in the bible.

I agree with that, but what do you mean by corporate? All of x group of people are saved or not, or do you mean a uniform plan or means of salvation?

Catholics may claim all the day long that the do not worship Mary but their actions betray them openly. You cannot walk into a catholic church and not trip over statues and art work portraying Mary in highly lauded scenes.

If your argument is idols or representations, plenty of Protestant churches I HAVE walked into have these things (representations of Jesus or other symbols). Just because they are not typically on the same level of grandeur, doesn't mean that they are not there.

Churches that are usually considered extreme (take JW for example) are the ones that have extremely plain sanctuaries with no crosses, no paintings, no banners, nothing that suggests any religious leaning. Is that what you are talking about? Otherwise, just because something is done in a less extravagant fashion doesn't mean the same thing isn't being done in principle.

Enter the average protestant church and make a comparison. Even Jesus is not seen in statues and art work

lol I beg to differ! I've seen this painting in Protestant churches:




You have Veggie Tales and certain posters for children in nurseries. You may have pictures of Jesus on the bulletin when you walk in (I could even SCAN you one I still have!) Crosses are very common. You may see representations of doves. I have been in more Protestant churches, different ones, than I have Catholic and EO and I can tell you that I haven't seen one church completely bare of religious representation, regardless of what it was.

in the protestant church. Jesus is seen in the hearts and faces of the people in the churches.

You mean Protestant specifically? And statues of Mary prevents Him from being able to do this in Catholic churches?

 

[Mec99]

Statues of Mary is Idolatry!

Exodus 20:2-6 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] You shall have no other gods before Me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.


I have seen MANY pictures of Pope John Paul II bowing down to a statue of Mary. I personally have seen many of my family members bowing down to a statue of Mary. I personally have seen many Catholics bowing down to a statue of Mary.


Galatians 5:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]IDOLATRY, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


All those who bow down to a statue of Mary will be DENIED entrance into Heaven! All those who bow down to a picture of Mary will NEVER be allowed to enter into Heaven!


The Catholic Church today practices Idolatry and see's nothing wrong with Worshiping Mary as their God.


It does not matter if you do not believe Mary was without sin. The very fact you do Worship and serve Mary as your God will keep you Catholics from entering into Heaven.

 

[Jackson123]

Indonesian catholic said that the Lord never ask people to write the bible. It was oral teaching.

Is that mean write the bible is violate the will of God?

Then he said bible is from catholic.


Is that mean catholic violate the will of God?

 

[KennethC]

Indonesian catholic said that the Lord never ask people to write the bible. It was oral teaching.

Is that mean write the bible is violate the will of God?

Then he said bible is from catholic.


Is that mean catholic violate the will of God?

Well first Catholic's did not write the bible, but they were the one's who put the letters together for the bible we have.

The gospel books and epistles were written by the original Apostles or their understudies, and was passed around from church to church in the first 4+ centuries.

The Catholic church was formed in the 4th century so the epistles from the Apostles and the gospel books were done by Christians who were the first fruits of the faith in the Lord, not Catholic !!!