Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[feedm3]

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And how is the Catholic usage demonstrated in this portion of my post: Catholics know that as members of a parish, they have been committed to a priest’s spiritual care, thus they have great filial affection for priests and call them "father." Priests, in turn, follow the apostles’ biblical example by referring to members of their flock as "my son" or "my child" (cf. Gal. 4:19; 1 Tim. 1:18; 2 Tim. 2:1; Philem. 10; 1 Pet. 5:13; 1 John 2:1; 3 John 4). inconsistent with that usage?

No, not in the sense that every one called father is doing it because of pride. Some may just jump on the bandwagon, yet is humble in heart. Yet, Paul's usage as I said was not in the sense of he wanted to be exalted, nor named "father Paul". I am sure he knew the Lord's command concerning this, and would not violate it. As for "my son" "child" Jesus did not comment on that, why would I? I am speaking what Jesus said in plain words, along with the other names mentioned, the context of being prideful. At the least, even if I did not think it was wrong to call someone that out of spritual meaning, i would not because of what is plainly stated. Yet I do not see a name being added to oneself as lawful, especaclly a name He specifaclly forbade.

Meh. We don't have any of the letters written from, say, Timothy to Paul, so we can never actually know how the congregations addressed Paul or how these men who Paul describes as "his sons" addressed him.

That's correct we don't know at all. We do not it's not there, so we can say with all assurance that no where is the name found in the Bible. I know for sure that NOT calling someone Father is not a sin. I will base my beliefs on what I do know rather than what I don't. If new light comes to me through others in study, then I am happy to change what I believe to keep my conscience clean knowing I am abiding in the will of God.
Nothing so far mentioned on this subject has ever convinced me, soundly, that I can call a man father. So it would be a sin for me either way, just as eating meat sacrificed to idols can be a sin for one who just believes its wrong and still does it, because other do it - I Cor 8.
As I said I do not believe Paul violated the Lord's command in the way he used the term, as for others who add it to their name, I cannot say that with the same assurance. You may, but I cant.

Somewhat. The office of Priest comes from the presbyters which performed the same function as priests today (the word priest actual comes directly from presbyter by way of French). The Apostles exercised authority over multiple congregations, which Bishops do today as descendants of the Apostles.

Well this is really a whole other topic, but I will say in the NT we are all referred to as "priests", with only one High priest Christ. The entomology of the word, I never looked up, yet does not mean if has the same function. But before I say too much, I will look into the words and see more about what your talking about.

Yes the Apostles did exercise their authority over multiple congregations, your right there. Yet the Apostles are the only ones who were given that authority, the only authority they themselves gave was sending other men to appoint elders within each congregation. And these congregations remained autonomous. Of course I don't believe the apostle office, nor rule was passed down through time, it ended with the death of the Apostles, and as the Bible was written and put together to give us the unity of the faith, the authority lies in the word of God, which is now by the written word. No one has authority over scripture. The Apostles and writers of the NT commanded the congregation to submit to those who were in the offices, of course not if anything they did violated the word of God.

 

[Spartacus1122]

@SantoSubito Where is the verse?

As SantoSubito said, "Because every last minutiae of what we are supposed to do is written in the Bible, right?"

Praying the rosary is a Catholic tradition dating back to the 16th century. It is a symbol of our devotion to Jesus Christ, through His Virgin Mother Mary.
For us Catholics, the holy rosary has meditative and contemplative elements, which we use for prayer and penance.

Since you're not a Catholic, you cannot obviously understand its significance, but as a fellow Christian, you should have at least the decency to RESPECT its custom.

If you truly believe that every single second of your life must mirror what is written in the Bible, then you are not better than the fundamentalist Muslim who truly believes that if he eats pork he'll burn in hell, and if he kills in the name of Allah an infidel he will be rewarded in heaven.

RELIGION AND FAITH ARE MEANT TO GUIDE YOU, NOT CONTROL YOU.

And one more thing, to ALL OF YOU ignorant Catholic-bashers:
If it wasn't for the Roman Catholic Church, Christianity itself would have ceased to exist a long time ago.
Our popes and our saints fought the Islamic threat that nearly destroyed Christianity itself.

Look up the Holy League, The Siege of Malta and the Knights of Malta, the Siege if Vienna, and the famous Battle of Lepanto. And yes, the holy rosary played a role in them too.

... so cut the fanatical nonsense and have some respect!

Hypocrites.

 

[feedm3]

Not so sure about the other pages I did not look, but as for when I came on here, i have not seen anyone bash your religion. We are having a civil discussion about terms used. I am listening to what he says, and looking into what he has said, you arent helping anyone coming accusing, and calling names.

... so cut the fanatical nonsense and have some respect!

Hypocrites.

Wow, have respect.....Hypocrites......hmmmmm..never mind

 

[Spartacus1122]

Not so sure about the other pages I did not look, but as for when I came on here, i have not seen anyone bash your religion. We are having a civil discussion about terms used. I am listening to what he says, and looking into what he has said, you arent helping anyone coming accusing, and calling names.

Wow, have respect.....Hypocrites......hmmmmm..never mind

The thread is titled "Catholic Heresy".
The initial post, and many that followed, call for Catholicism being heretic and not true Christianity.
...Not bashing?

And yes, this is therefore hypocrisy, because the last thing a good Christian should do is point the finger and accuse a fellow follower of Christ a "heretic" and a false Christian.

Lest not forget the atrocities that occurred in the past in Germany, England, and Ireland, as a result of Christians against Christians. You would think that today we would be more open-minded and honest with ourselves.

Instead, we find the same "holier than thou" Napoleonic attitude that tainted the Christian faith in the past.
I apologize if I came on too harsh, but the lack of logic, knowledge, and honesty by some (not all) is disturbing.

 

[Red33]

Your view is somewhat problematic considering "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15). and many of the other verses in the last section of my post. But you are at least consistent I'll give you that much.

However, I will say one thing, the Church is supposed to mirror the Kingdom of God and there's a reason it's the Kingdom of God and not the "Direct no-elected-leader democracy of God". A kingdom has a hierarchy with some men in authority over others to manage the kingdom, and so it is in the Church.

Tell me if the Catholic church by practice is living according to the scriptures we have been given in (1Cor 12:12-27)...

Col 1:18 And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

 

[sitwatcher]

Where is the verse that tells you how to hold your hands when you pray? Or where is the verse that tells you whether baptizing in dirty river water is ok? Same principle applies.

I already told you that the Bible does not prescribe every minutiae.

I am asking what verses can you give me to support your "rosary praying". The kind of praying practice Catholics do.

Peace Yow!

 

[sitwatcher]

The rosary comes under tradition so the most appropriate verses would be

1 Corinthians 11:2: I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you"

2 Thessalonians 2:15: So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6:Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

Also i think you misunderstand what the rosary is, its a tool for us to focus on certain bible passages, you can by all means pray with the bible without using a rosary, but a rosary makes meditating on the life of Jesus easier. The bible does not tell us to use the scriptures to pray with, but we understand that this is one of the best ways to pray, so i dont see why people have such a problem with it. If it's the hail mary prayers you have a problem with, you can use a decade of any ten prayers you like that would help you focus on the scriptures.

And if you are wondering about Matthew 6:7 "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

Lets just have a look at how christ prayed in Matthew 26:39-44 "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words."

So you can see Jesus prayed the same prayer three times, So Jesus must be referring to in Matt 6:7, saying prayers over and over again without the proper disposition is what he doesn't want us to do.

The rosary wasnt mentioned there.

Can you tell me what are those traditions?

Were these traditions practiced by the Israelites? Did they pray the rosary also?

 

[SantoSubito]

Tell me if the Catholic church by practice is living according to the scriptures we have been given in (1Cor 12:12-27)...

Col 1:18 And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

I'm assuming this one is here because of the Popes position as the visible head of the Church on Earth? But that's exactly what he is the visible head on Earth. Christ is still the overall head (to give a comparison the Pope is like the Prime Minister while Christ is the King).

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

And the Catholic Church is absolutely one.

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

Exactly those in authority have been set in authority by God, and those at the lowest rung of the ladder have been set there by God.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

And how again do we do this?

 

[SantoSubito]

The rosary wasnt mentioned there.

Can you tell me what are those traditions?

Were these traditions practiced by the Israelites? Did they pray the rosary also?

In particular the Rosary came from sometime around the 5th century AD, but no one is entirely sure of it's exact time of origin. It arose as a way for peasants who couldn't read to join their prayers with those of the Monks (who at the time prayed all 150 psalms every day), which is why the complete traditional Rosary (no luminous mysteries) has 150 Hail Marys all together. That's also where it's nickname "Our Lady's Psalter" came from.

The practice of using beads arose as a way of keeping count. Originally many kept count by simply moving pebbles from one pile to another and later as the devotion spread people began stringing beads together to keep count and slowly it developed into what we know now as the Rosary. At some point in the 9th century AD it lost popularity and it wasn't until Saint Dominic (who is said to have received it from an apparition of the Virgin and ordered to spread it) that it gained popularity again since one of the missions of the Dominican Friars is to spread the Rosary. He also established the common form of the Rosary today which is called the Dominican Rosary.

There are other variations of it like the Franciscan Crown, however.

 

[sitwatcher]

In particular the Rosary came from sometime around the 5th century AD, but no one is entirely sure of it's exact time of origin. It arose as a way for peasants who couldn't read to join their prayers with those of the Monks (who at the time prayed all 150 psalms every day), which is why the complete traditional Rosary (no luminous mysteries) has 150 Hail Marys all together. That's also where it's nickname "Our Lady's Psalter" came from.

The practice of using beads arose as a way of keeping count. Originally many kept count by simply moving pebbles from one pile to another and later as the devotion spread people began stringing beads together to keep count and slowly it developed into what we know now as the Rosary. At some point in the 9th century AD it lost popularity and it wasn't until Saint Dominic (who is said to have received it from an apparition of the Virgin and ordered to spread it) that it gained popularity again since one of the missions of the Dominican Friars is to spread the Rosary. He also established the common form of the Rosary today which is called the Dominican Rosary.

There are other variations of it like the Franciscan Crown, however.

So this practice is not biblical since it cant be found in the bible right?

Why do you have to use a rosary when praying knowing that God did not comand it?

Do you think God is pleased with that??

 

[SantoSubito]

So this practice is not biblical since it cant be found in the bible right?

I would draw a distinction between "not in the Bible" and "unbiblical". For example, using a projector in a church is "not in the Bible", but it is not "unbiblical".

Why do you have to use a rosary when praying knowing that God did not comand it?

You don't have to use anything while praying. The Rosary is simply one devotion among many.

Do you think God is pleased with that??

Yep.

 

[Red33]

I'm assuming this one is here because of the Popes position as the visible head of the Church on Earth? But that's exactly what he is the visible head on Earth. Christ is still the overall head (to give a comparison the Pope is like the Prime Minister while Christ is the King).


And the Catholic Church is absolutely one.



Exactly those in authority have been set in authority by God, and those at the lowest rung of the ladder have been set there by God.



And how again do we do this?

Your having a problem with (1Cor 12:12-27) because you are not taught that in the RCC as part of the whole counsel of God's divine decree. The RCC leaves that out in their doctrine and practice because they do not understand the revelation of the body of Christ in relationship to the church. You can 'fub' around with it but you have no understanding in the Spirit about it and have never been involved in its practice. The entire church that our Lord has built is a living organism that functions as the body of Christ and all NT doctrine relates to and edifies that body which consists of every blood bought redeemed sinner that has believed upon Christ through the literal efficacious and substitutionary sacrifice of Christ with the shedding of blood and not through the doctrine of RCC or any denomination.

 

[sitwatcher]

As SantoSubito said, "Because every last minutiae of what we are supposed to do is written in the Bible, right?"

Since you're not a Catholic, you cannot obviously understand its significance, but as a fellow Christian, you should have at least the decency to RESPECT its custom.


Hypocrites.

I respect customs. The fact that this "rosary" custom is not in the bible is alarming.

I hope you will lead people to Jesus not to the customs. Because Jesus saves not the customs.

Our God is Love.

Love you Brother..

 

[SantoSubito]

Your having a problem with (1Cor 12:12-27) because you are not taught that in the RCC as part of the whole counsel of God's divine decree. The RCC leaves that out in their doctrine and practice because they do not understand the revelation of the body of Christ in relationship to the church. You can 'fub' around with it but you have no understanding in the Spirit about it and have never been involved in its practice. The entire church that our Lord has built is a living organism that functions as the body of Christ and all NT doctrine relates to and edifies that body which consists of every blood bought redeemed sinner that has believed upon Christ through the literal efficacious and substitutionary sacrifice of Christ with the shedding of blood and not through the doctrine of RCC or any denomination.

The RCC leaves what out? Catholics don't believe that the Body of Christ is simply an invisible body of believers, to us the Church is the Body of Christ and all those in union with her by way of baptism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The RCC leaves what out? Catholics don't believe that the Body of Christ is simply an invisible body of believers, to us the Church is the Body of Christ and all those in union with her by way of baptism.

It is the body of Christ. It is not invisible either, Invisibility hides. We are called to be a light into the world. Not invisible.

And we are baptized into the body. Just not by men or in water, But by God the HS himself.

 

[sitwatcher]

You don't have to use anything while praying. The Rosary is simply one devotion among many.


Yep.

Why then you have rosary.?

Did God say to have devotion with rosary?

Catholics pray with rosary. God did not command or gave any specifications to pray with the rosary.

It really is misleading..

 

[SantoSubito]

Why then you have rosary.?

Did God say to have devotion with rosary?

Catholics pray with rosary. God did not command or gave any specifications to pray with the rosary.

It really is misleading..

It's a devotion, which is optional. God didn't command to pray with a book or use many forms of devotions popular among Evangelicals today either.

 

[murraymuzz]

Why then you have rosary.?

Did God say to have devotion with rosary?

Catholics pray with rosary. God did not command or gave any specifications to pray with the rosary.

It really is misleading..

Im sorry, I must have missed the bible verse which tells us everything we do must come from the bible, can you provide a bible quote? If not, what you are saying is highly unbiblical.

 

[SantoSubito]

It is the body of Christ. It is not invisible either, Invisibility hides. We are called to be a light into the world. Not invisible.

And we are baptized into the body. Just not by men or in water, But by God the HS himself.

I meant a visible Church and not some invisible body of believers that can't be seen (as in it's not a Church). But you and I obviously disagree about baptism.

 

[Rickee]

Im sorry, I must have missed the bible verse which tells us everything we do must come from the bible, can you provide a bible quote? If not, what you are saying is highly unbiblical.

Let' s start with this verse spoken by Jesus....John 5 v 39 "SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they WHICH TESTIFY OF ME".
NEXT....ACTS 17 V 2/ ACTS 17 V 11/ACTS 15 V 7....check this out....II Timothy 3 verses 15-17. Joshua 1 verse 8 is an OT verse that tells us to go by God' s Holy writ, and not be deceived by Doctrines of Men...