Can you help me help my sister?

[Genipher]

My sister (blood sister, not sister-in-Christ...though I guess we're actually both) and I have been texting and after the second time the same conversation came up this year, I thought I'd pose some questions that have been bothering her, here. She says it's an issue that's made her faith kinda get "stuck". Anyway, she said she was okay with me sharing on this site so here goes:

Her beef:
"If God is omniscient, then He already knew Adam and Eve would sin and eat the forbidden fruit. If God already knows the choices we're going to make, why give us a choice or free will? He knows who will follow Him and who won't so why would He allow those lost souls to be born into this world and remain lost and then doomed to eternal torment? Especially when He desires that none be lost? He can prevent that, but He doesn't. Why?"

She knows a lot of this comes back to faith or "His ways aren't ours", but feels those aren't "real" answers.

I've given many examples that I thought would help her sort it out in her mind but I think I've fallen flat.
I told her we parents do the same thing God does. We offer a choice to our kids: Obey or be punished.
To that she says, "But we don't kill our kids over their disobedience!"
I told her, "God spanks harder than we do."

Or, like Abraham with Isaac. God knew the choice Abraham would make but Abraham didn't. Not until that moment that he lifted the knife did he realize God was more important than the son he had been promised. I told her, we have free will and God might know what we're going to choose but...we don't. And that those choices are refining us like gold.

I've told her God doesn't want robots preprogrammed to love Him. That He wants us to love Him because we desire to. Just like we don't want to force our children to love us. We want them to choose to love us.

But then, she always brings it back to the people God knows won't make the choice and will die in sin. Why allow them to be born?

Basically anything I try to say or any scripture I share, she goes back to the beginning and says, "But there's no point because God could have stopped sin from the very beginning by not even offering a choice to Adam and Eve and He's allowed people to be doomed for all eternity when He didn't have to. Why?"

Hopefully this doesn't sound too garbled. It's hard to really convey her worry/question/doubt.
If anyone has things I can tell her about this matter that will help get her faith "unstuck", I'd appreciate it.

I'll be back later to check in for any words of wisdom.

 

[Magenta]

Hello Genipher I hope you are well this fine day. I wonder if your sister has ever asked if it is better to experience life, even with all its challenges, hardships, and suffering, than to never experience life at all. Life is precious in God's eyes. I do see it as a gift. If it is better to have lived and experience a fairly full range of the sweetness beauty and joy that life has to offer even in the face of life's adversities, failures, and sure suffering, even knowing we are one day going to die... which, some believe is the end of everything, forever... if it is better to have lived than to never live at all, could we not see God as good even though He allows people to make a choice that goes against His will, which brings about the end of their existence? Life is so precious in God's eyes that He sent His only begotten Son as an atoning sacrifice, that those who by grace through faith in His shed righteous blood for the remission of sins may be reconciled to Him, escape the second death, and attain to life ever after. We are told we are born into sin, that the natural man is an enemy to God and hostile toward Him, that a spiritual rebirth is necessary. We are also told everybody knows there is a God, that there is a Creator, that they have no excuse to deny His existence, and yet they do. The culprit is the pride of life. Yes, God knows many are stiff necked. God knows some will not bend the knee. Why should He allow them into His house when they refuse to acknowledge He even exists?

2 Peter 3:9

 

[JohnDB]

I get this question...it bugged me too.

"Woe Kapernum, Woe Korazin woe Bethsaida. If the miracles that were performed in you would have been performed in Sodom they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes. "

That's it right there in a nutshell.

And you are right...God is omniscience...knowing everything. No surprise parties for him.

God is also omnipotent. Perfectly efficient....

So why all the lost souls?
Why did God go through the trouble of creating life in the sinners who are doomed to destruction to begin with if God is Perfectly efficient? It certainly doesn't seem very efficient.

AND @Magenta is correct in her answer.

But also consider this....

When looking at the creation account...
God didn't spend the first day creating photons (stuff light is made of)...kinda a very slow start considering who it is.
Actually it's the creation of the plan and how to accomplish the plan of Jesus redeeming mankind. Read John 1 to know more.

Then....
Look at the whole of the creation account. Most all of Creation was spoken into existence....but mankind was actually formed by God's hands and then life was breathed into Adam. A much much more intimate act. All demonstrating that we are the object of the exercise.

Then...
Let's look at the story of Abimelech. His name means the "King of the Holy Angels"

He wasn't allowed to sin against Abraham and God.
But Abimelech was trying to be kind towards Abraham...as Abimelech thought God would want.
(Our sins are allowed to us)

But the truth was that God had a plan and you can't thwart God's plans.

God is on a wholly different plane of perception. Those sinners, who never were going to believe, were created for you. No other reason. They really don't matter to God. Never did and never will. That doesn't mean that God won't reward them with some earthly treasure when He deems fit. (Seen that too)

We, the Believers are the object of the exercise...those who of their own free will choose to love God.

We are the prize most valuable to God...one that He literally was willing to die for. The contrite and humble soul...that means everything to God.

 

[Subhumanoidal]

My sister (blood sister, not sister-in-Christ...though I guess we're actually both) and I have been texting and after the second time the same conversation came up this year, I thought I'd pose some questions that have been bothering her, here. She says it's an issue that's made her faith kinda get "stuck". Anyway, she said she was okay with me sharing on this site so here goes:

Her beef:
"If God is omniscient, then He already knew Adam and Eve would sin and eat the forbidden fruit. If God already knows the choices we're going to make, why give us a choice or free will? He knows who will follow Him and who won't so why would He allow those lost souls to be born into this world and remain lost and then doomed to eternal torment? Especially when He desires that none be lost? He can prevent that, but He doesn't. Why?"

She knows a lot of this comes back to faith or "His ways aren't ours", but feels those aren't "real" answers.

I've given many examples that I thought would help her sort it out in her mind but I think I've fallen flat.
I told her we parents do the same thing God does. We offer a choice to our kids: Obey or be punished.
To that she says, "But we don't kill our kids over their disobedience!"
I told her, "God spanks harder than we do."

Or, like Abraham with Isaac. God knew the choice Abraham would make but Abraham didn't. Not until that moment that he lifted the knife did he realize God was more important than the son he had been promised. I told her, we have free will and God might know what we're going to choose but...we don't. And that those choices are refining us like gold.

I've told her God doesn't want robots preprogrammed to love Him. That He wants us to love Him because we desire to. Just like we don't want to force our children to love us. We want them to choose to love us.

But then, she always brings it back to the people God knows won't make the choice and will die in sin. Why allow them to be born?

Basically anything I try to say or any scripture I share, she goes back to the beginning and says, "But there's no point because God could have stopped sin from the very beginning by not even offering a choice to Adam and Eve and He's allowed people to be doomed for all eternity when He didn't have to. Why?"

Hopefully this doesn't sound too garbled. It's hard to really convey her worry/question/doubt.
If anyone has things I can tell her about this matter that will help get her faith "unstuck", I'd appreciate it.

I'll be back later to check in for any words of wisdom.

I actually have had the same question for years now. And it, along with other things, toppled my faith.
Simply put I stopped asking for people to answer that question. Because no one came close to even giving me pause on their answer, let alone resolving it.
It was actually rare that any Christian genuinely touched on the topic. Usually it wad more about them trying to convince me God is good and knows best (the same types of answers you seem to have given) but those are entirely unsatisfactory, and can even further fuel their original question.
Eventually I came to the conclusion no person on earth can legitimately answer it. That only God is able. But is He willing?
Speaking for myself only I can say God has not seemed interested in answering anything or resolving anything after nearly 4 years. He has stayed utterly silent on all matters I struggle with, seemingly entirely uninterested in me.

My point in sharing is to make you aware of the depth and difficulty of this question. Not many Christians have the capacity to have any affect on a person facing this.
Maybe things will go differently with your friend than they have with me. But it's doubtful it will be resolved quickly if it is resolved.

 

[tstumf]

The way I see this is,God is love. I will do my best to explain as I know it I might fail at my explain but feel led to attempt. You or a deity can force people to be obedient but you cannot force them to love you through forced obedience . I relate it to the example of a prisoner of war in Nazi Germany in the 1940s. The guards can force the prisoner to be obedient to any demand and force you to do terrible things at gunpoint but they cannot make the prisoner love them even through their required obedience to live or disobedience to death . Going back to the Garden pre- fall. The kingdom of God and earth were in complete overlap at that moment Everything in heaven and earth was in complete harmony. Adam and Eve had complete harmony, relationship and therefore obedience to God. Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels rebelled and were hurled to earth. Satan convinced Eve through deception to mistrust God, Adam chose Eve over God and chose to go passive and joined Eve in disobedience at that moment our perfect relationship with God was severed. Sin and death entered the world and the Kingdom of God and Earth were separated . Since then God has longed for us to have that relationship restored with him. Spiritually it’s accomplished through Jesus now and the ripping of the tapestry in the temple at Jesus death was to show Gods people could now be in proper relationship reconciled with God through Christ. God desires us humans to love him and be in relationship and harmony with him. God knows that a forced coercion as the pow is subjected to is absent of love and relationship. What that forced obedience is related to is called religion- something the Pharisees were famous for imposing. Jesus saved us from this forced obedience . We can now rightly relate to God. God desires us to have free will to love him. And the evidence of that love should be obedience to his word. The choice to live by his love in obedience. The choice is ours and he loves us unconditionally. The relationship will not be severed no matter how disobedient we are as believers thanks to Jesus. Our position as sons and daughters of God is secure However this is not a license to be disobedient or willfully sinful . What is effected by our disobedience is the harmony between us and God. When we as a believer sin the consequence is a loss of our harmony with God. The child/father relationship stays intact but you will lose your internal peace, which may explain emotional lows a believer may experience in while sin or in disobedience . A believer may feel a perceived distance or silence from God in their sin. That lose of the peace of God in your soul is the conviction of Holy Spirit saying stop what you are doing , look around and turn back to God or continue the path you are and continue to have a lack of peace or loss of the fruit of the spirit . If you continue to ignore Gods way and insist upon going your own way absent of God the conviction will continue or even increase. Often Satan will begin to whisper lies in a believers ear to try to get them to make an agreement in their soul and heart to mistrust God. When a believer makes that agreement the spiritual warfare is well underway and and the voices of condemnation come in which are lies of Satan. God desires relationship with us and the evidence of that loving relationship is obedience and the fruit of the spirit . We cannot be obedient without love for God. As we learn to love God abiding in Christ we begin to bear the fruit of the spirit and have the peace of God which is internal peace in our soul not necessarily external peace. Fruit is the evidence of abiding by love. but we cannot bear fruit to abide. That is striving and striving to create our own fruit through obedience is loveless religion not relationship. God wants loving relationship. God bless. Hope my explanation didn’t cause too much confusion. God bless.

 

[Live4Him2]

My sister (blood sister, not sister-in-Christ...though I guess we're actually both) and I have been texting and after the second time the same conversation came up this year, I thought I'd pose some questions that have been bothering her, here. She says it's an issue that's made her faith kinda get "stuck". Anyway, she said she was okay with me sharing on this site so here goes:

Her beef:
"If God is omniscient, then He already knew Adam and Eve would sin and eat the forbidden fruit. If God already knows the choices we're going to make, why give us a choice or free will? He knows who will follow Him and who won't so why would He allow those lost souls to be born into this world and remain lost and then doomed to eternal torment? Especially when He desires that none be lost? He can prevent that, but He doesn't. Why?"

She knows a lot of this comes back to faith or "His ways aren't ours", but feels those aren't "real" answers.

I've given many examples that I thought would help her sort it out in her mind but I think I've fallen flat.
I told her we parents do the same thing God does. We offer a choice to our kids: Obey or be punished.
To that she says, "But we don't kill our kids over their disobedience!"
I told her, "God spanks harder than we do."

Or, like Abraham with Isaac. God knew the choice Abraham would make but Abraham didn't. Not until that moment that he lifted the knife did he realize God was more important than the son he had been promised. I told her, we have free will and God might know what we're going to choose but...we don't. And that those choices are refining us like gold.

I've told her God doesn't want robots preprogrammed to love Him. That He wants us to love Him because we desire to. Just like we don't want to force our children to love us. We want them to choose to love us.

But then, she always brings it back to the people God knows won't make the choice and will die in sin. Why allow them to be born?

Basically anything I try to say or any scripture I share, she goes back to the beginning and says, "But there's no point because God could have stopped sin from the very beginning by not even offering a choice to Adam and Eve and He's allowed people to be doomed for all eternity when He didn't have to. Why?"

Hopefully this doesn't sound too garbled. It's hard to really convey her worry/question/doubt.
If anyone has things I can tell her about this matter that will help get her faith "unstuck", I'd appreciate it.

I'll be back later to check in for any words of wisdom.

Hi, Genipher.

I would suggest to you and your sister that the first thing that we need to consider is this:

I Peter chapter 1

[17] And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
[18] Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[20] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
[21] Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Before the foundation of the world, or before there was ever an earth or a man and woman upon the face of the same, Christ had been foreordained to shed his precious blood as a lamb without blemish and spot to redeem fallen mankind.

In other words, God, in his foreknowledge, had the solution in place before the problem ever even began.

Moving ahead to the creation account, we read:

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." (Genesis 1:31)

At God's end, he not only created everything in a "very good" condition, but, again, he also had a redemptive plan in place before anything was ever created.

What went wrong?

Well, sin began in the angelic realm, and we get a pretty good glimpse of that here:

Ezekiel chapter 28

[11] Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
[12] Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
[14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
[16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
[17] Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
[18] Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Here, we clearly read of a "cherub" (vss. 14, 16) or an angel who was not only "created" (vs. 13), but who "was perfect in his ways from the day he was created, till iniquity was found in him" (vs. 15).

This "cherub" or angel, I would propose to you, is none other than the one we call "Satan" today.

"His heart was lifted because of his beauty" (vs.17), and "he corrupted his wisdom" (vs. 17) which he was "full of" (vs. 12) "by reason of his brightness" (vs. 17).

In other words, he ultimately fell due to such sins or iniquities as pride and vanity.

When it comes to the topic of eternal torment, Jesus said:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41)

According to Jesus Christ, "everlasting fire" was "prepared for the devil and his angels", and not originally for man.

However, seeing how men and women have willfully chosen to follow the devil and his angels throughout history, their ultimate fate will be the same as that of those whom they are following.

Again, Jesus said:

John chapter 3

[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

According to Jesus Christ, people will ultimately be condemned not because of any evil that was perpetrated at God's end, but rather because they "loved darkness rather than light", and Jesus is that light, "because their deeds were evil" (vs. 19).

Yes, "everyone that does evil hates the light", and, again, Jesus is that light, "neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved" (vs. 20).

My overall point?

Well, simply that God is NOT the bad guy here.

Again, he had a solution put in place before the foundation of the world, and then he created the world in a condition that was "very good".

Sin or iniquity began in the angelic realm with Satan and his angels, and then it carried over into the human race as men and women WILLFULLY CHOSE to follow Satan and his angels as opposed to God.

Even then, God has presented fallen mankind with a redemptive remedy to his problems, but, sad to say, many will never come to the light lest their deeds should be reproved.

With such being the case, their damnation will not only be just, but it will also be that which they've WILLFULLY CHOSEN themselves.

How then is God the bad guy here?

He isn't.

It's Satan, his angels, and those who willfully choose to follow them who are truly evil, and God, in his justice, will see that they are dealt with accordingly.

I hope that this helps.

Ecclesiastes chapter 7

[27] Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:
[28] Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.
[29] Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

 

[blueskies]

"If God is omniscient, then He already knew Adam and Eve would sin and eat the forbidden fruit. If God already knows the choices we're going to make, why give us a choice or free will?

Good questions and a lot there to answer.
I’ll take one bite, on God’s omniscience.

This is a very simple analogy with no scriptural quotes.

Say you had god-like powers and could lay out your complete and entire entire life, as in a movie story board, in a series of drawings or photos and then placed them on a wall, you could in theory then see the beginning, the middle and the end of your’s, or anyones else’s, life all at once.

Another way to do this would be if you were “outside” of time and not stuck in this moment but free stroll along time’s length and breadth and to look and be anywhere in your life and experience all that is in the past, present or future at will. You could then “see” and know your entire life at will.

We can’t do this of course because our physical selves are bound in the first 4 dimensions. However, God is not tethered to the 4th dimension (time), or any dimension, He is in fact, outside of time. This is how it’s possible for him to see all and know all. We are exercising our own ‘free will’ while God is watching. It’s our story, our life, our choices but, because He is God, he can see it all laid out before Him.

In an imperfect sense this illustrates how God's foreknowledge and our own free will can coexist.

 

[Lanolin]

You sisters sounds like she really wants to stop everyone from being born

well shes kinda missing the point.

She doesnt understand that yes God knows we may mess up.
But He has found a way to redeem us through Jesus Christ. So that we may choose Him. Its not preordained that anyones going to choose Him But if we do get born AGAIN and thats really is salvation guaranteed.


I mean why do people keep arguing round in circles about God, its like when the Jewish ppl, whod known God all their lives, didnt think Jesus was the Messiah. They would reason ok God chose us out of all the people of the earth to be holy so why bother with all other ppl ..gentiles etc. But no at least the Jewish ppl , well some who actually cottoned on to the fact that Jesus was the Messiah so He could be a light to the gentiles.

You know...Jesus, Gods only begotten son. The reason why we are CHRISTians. We arent all God botherers.

 

[PennEd]

My sister (blood sister, not sister-in-Christ...though I guess we're actually both) and I have been texting and after the second time the same conversation came up this year, I thought I'd pose some questions that have been bothering her, here. She says it's an issue that's made her faith kinda get "stuck". Anyway, she said she was okay with me sharing on this site so here goes:

Her beef:
"If God is omniscient, then He already knew Adam and Eve would sin and eat the forbidden fruit. If God already knows the choices we're going to make, why give us a choice or free will? He knows who will follow Him and who won't so why would He allow those lost souls to be born into this world and remain lost and then doomed to eternal torment? Especially when He desires that none be lost? He can prevent that, but He doesn't. Why?"

She knows a lot of this comes back to faith or "His ways aren't ours", but feels those aren't "real" answers.

I've given many examples that I thought would help her sort it out in her mind but I think I've fallen flat.
I told her we parents do the same thing God does. We offer a choice to our kids: Obey or be punished.
To that she says, "But we don't kill our kids over their disobedience!"
I told her, "God spanks harder than we do."

Or, like Abraham with Isaac. God knew the choice Abraham would make but Abraham didn't. Not until that moment that he lifted the knife did he realize God was more important than the son he had been promised. I told her, we have free will and God might know what we're going to choose but...we don't. And that those choices are refining us like gold.

I've told her God doesn't want robots preprogrammed to love Him. That He wants us to love Him because we desire to. Just like we don't want to force our children to love us. We want them to choose to love us.

But then, she always brings it back to the people God knows won't make the choice and will die in sin. Why allow them to be born?

Basically anything I try to say or any scripture I share, she goes back to the beginning and says, "But there's no point because God could have stopped sin from the very beginning by not even offering a choice to Adam and Eve and He's allowed people to be doomed for all eternity when He didn't have to. Why?"

Hopefully this doesn't sound too garbled. It's hard to really convey her worry/question/doubt.
If anyone has things I can tell her about this matter that will help get her faith "unstuck", I'd appreciate it.

I'll be back later to check in for any words of wisdom.

I understand many people struggle with this question.
You will NOT get an "AHA!" type answer this side of the glass darkly.

I have other questions, but I have never struggled with this question. There is one overriding principal Truth I know on these type issues.

God is God, and I am not. I think the closest answer we can get now is in the Book of Job, and also:


Ephesians 2:7-10

New King James Version


7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Lynx]

Well it's decision time God. You can refuse to create life. You can create life and make it perfect, unable to sin. You can also create life that is already doomed, just so You can destroy it. Or you can create life and give it a choice.

If you were God, which one would you do?

 

[Genipher]

I actually have had the same question for years now. And it, along with other things, toppled my faith.
Simply put I stopped asking for people to answer that question. Because no one came close to even giving me pause on their answer, let alone resolving it.
It was actually rare that any Christian genuinely touched on the topic. Usually it wad more about them trying to convince me God is good and knows best (the same types of answers you seem to have given) but those are entirely unsatisfactory, and can even further fuel their original question.
Eventually I came to the conclusion no person on earth can legitimately answer it. That only God is able. But is He willing?
Speaking for myself only I can say God has not seemed interested in answering anything or resolving anything after nearly 4 years. He has stayed utterly silent on all matters I struggle with, seemingly entirely uninterested in me.

My point in sharing is to make you aware of the depth and difficulty of this question. Not many Christians have the capacity to have any affect on a person facing this.
Maybe things will go differently with your friend than they have with me. But it's doubtful it will be resolved quickly if it is resolved.

That is exactly how she feels. I can "hear" the and frustration in her texts. She says she'll never walk away from God but these questions have really shaken her. And, I admit, my pat answers haven't been helpful though she's told me she's not offended with my responses...they still make her think. It just doesn't help make any sense as to the BIG "why?"

Maybe some of the responses here will help you, too.

 

[Genipher]

Hi, Genipher.

I would suggest to you and your sister that the first thing that we need to consider is this:

I Peter chapter 1

[17] And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
[18] Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[20] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
[21] Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Before the foundation of the world, or before there was ever an earth or a man and woman upon the face of the same, Christ had been foreordained to shed his precious blood as a lamb without blemish and spot to redeem fallen mankind.

In other words, God, in his foreknowledge, had the solution in place before the problem ever even began.

Moving ahead to the creation account, we read:

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." (Genesis 1:31)

At God's end, he not only created everything in a "very good" condition, but, again, he also had a redemptive plan in place before anything was ever created.

What went wrong?

Well, sin began in the angelic realm, and we get a pretty good glimpse of that here:

Ezekiel chapter 28

[11] Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
[12] Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
[14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
[16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
[17] Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
[18] Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Here, we clearly read of a "cherub" (vss. 14, 16) or an angel who was not only "created" (vs. 13), but who "was perfect in his ways from the day he was created, till iniquity was found in him" (vs. 15).

This "cherub" or angel, I would propose to you, is none other than the one we call "Satan" today.

"His heart was lifted because of his beauty" (vs.17), and "he corrupted his wisdom" (vs. 17) which he was "full of" (vs. 12) "by reason of his brightness" (vs. 17).

In other words, he ultimately fell due to such sins or iniquities as pride and vanity.

When it comes to the topic of eternal torment, Jesus said:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41)

According to Jesus Christ, "everlasting fire" was "prepared for the devil and his angels", and not originally for man.

However, seeing how men and women have willfully chosen to follow the devil and his angels throughout history, their ultimate fate will be the same as that of those whom they are following.

Again, Jesus said:

John chapter 3

[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

According to Jesus Christ, people will ultimately be condemned not because of any evil that was perpetrated at God's end, but rather because they "loved darkness rather than light", and Jesus is that light, "because their deeds were evil" (vs. 19).

Yes, "everyone that does evil hates the light", and, again, Jesus is that light, "neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved" (vs. 20).

My overall point?

Well, simply that God is NOT the bad guy here.

Again, he had a solution put in place before the foundation of the world, and then he created the world in a condition that was "very good".

Sin or iniquity began in the angelic realm with Satan and his angels, and then it carried over into the human race as men and women WILLFULLY CHOSE to follow Satan and his angels as opposed to God.

Even then, God has presented fallen mankind with a redemptive remedy to his problems, but, sad to say, many will never come to the light lest their deeds should be reproved.

With such being the case, their damnation will not only be just, but it will also be that which they've WILLFULLY CHOSEN themselves.

How then is God the bad guy here?

He isn't.

It's Satan, his angels, and those who willfully choose to follow them who are truly evil, and God, in his justice, will see that they are dealt with accordingly.

I hope that this helps.

Ecclesiastes chapter 7

[27] Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:
[28] Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.
[29] Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

The verses in 1 Peter are really helpful, here. Though, knowing my sister, I'm pretty sure she'll say, if God already had a solution, why did He allow the problem?
I'll definitely pass this along to her.

 

[Genipher]

I understand many people struggle with this question.
You will NOT get an "AHA!" type answer this side of the glass darkly.

I have other questions, but I have never struggled with this question. There is one overriding principal Truth I know on these type issues.

God is God, and I am not. I think the closest answer we can get now is in the Book of Job, and also:


Ephesians 2:7-10

New King James Version


7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Exactly! That's the gist of my answers to her. I've even mentioned the "glass darkly". Yet the "buts" always come out to play. sigh.

 

[Live4Him2]

The verses in 1 Peter are really helpful, here. Though, knowing my sister, I'm pretty sure she'll say, if God already had a solution, why did He allow the problem?
I'll definitely pass this along to her.

The real "problem" is that of free will.

If we didn't have it, either in the angelic realm or the human realm, then we'd all just be a bunch of pre-programmed robots.

Personally, I don't see anything relational (as in having a genuine relationship) in that.

I've seen ads recently on Facebook for AI boyfriends and girlfriends.

Who would want that?

Not me.

Ultimately, we'll all reap what we've sown.

 

[Genipher]

You sisters sounds like she really wants to stop everyone from being born

well shes kinda missing the point.

She doesnt understand that yes God knows we may mess up.
But He has found a way to redeem us through Jesus Christ. So that we may choose Him. Its not preordained that anyones going to choose Him But if we do get born AGAIN and thats really is salvation guaranteed.


I mean why do people keep arguing round in circles about God, its like when the Jewish ppl, whod known God all their lives, didnt think Jesus was the Messiah. They would reason ok God chose us out of all the people of the earth to be holy so why bother with all other ppl ..gentiles etc. But no at least the Jewish ppl , well some who actually cottoned on to the fact that Jesus was the Messiah so He could be a light to the gentiles.

You know...Jesus, Gods only begotten son. The reason why we are CHRISTians. We arent all God botherers.

I think it's more that she doesn't want people born who will live and die in sin and never repent. She sorrows for those that will forever be lost and will never reign with Christ because she feels that, since God is the creator of all, that whole scenario could have been avoided.

Her argument is that we would have never messed up if God had not given us the option to sin in the first place.

Personally, I believe God's ways aren't ours and while I can find myself wondering about those that are born to never know Him, I have faith that God knows what He's doing and His plan is best. But the whole "have faith" platitudes aren't helping my sister. She seems to need more.

 

[Genipher]

Alrighty. I'm taking it all in. Digesting. Trying to formulate a response for my sister.
Still open to more advice, thoughts, etc.

 

[Adstar]

Alrighty. I'm taking it all in. Digesting. Trying to formulate a response for my sister.
Still open to more advice, thoughts, etc.

Hi Genipher and welcome to CC

For God to create free willed beings with the real ability to choose Him and His will, Those beings need to have the ability to reject Him and his will.. Otherwise God is not creating beings with the ability to choose....

Just because God foreknows what we are going to do does not mean He is somehow wrong or evil for creating people he foreknows will reject His will.. People who reject God and His way of salvation are still making their own decision in their own life span.. Therefore God cannot be condemned even when He foreknows the outcome of Each individual in his creation..

God left nothing to chance.. He knew His creation ""program"" was going to produce the outcome He desired.. God had to foreknow the Begging and the End..

 

[JohnDB]

Alrighty. I'm taking it all in. Digesting. Trying to formulate a response for my sister.
Still open to more advice, thoughts, etc.

My basic premise is that where we value all lives and life...God values his followers supremely over and above anything and everything else...including his own Son.

Sure God gave them life...but their lives exist at His active support...not his acquiescence. They exist solely for our benefit. Who among the people is going to be a believer?
We don't know. Because God's kingdom is untouchable and uncountable. It's His business and not ours.

We were allowed our sins so that we would have a contrite heart and seek Him. God will do anything for us...there's no price He isn't willing to pay for us. Including creating life that He knows doesn't matter...cannon fodder if you will....

 

[Subhumanoidal]

That is exactly how she feels. I can "hear" the and frustration in her texts. She says she'll never walk away from God but these questions have really shaken her. And, I admit, my pat answers haven't been helpful though she's told me she's not offended with my responses...they still make her think. It just doesn't help make any sense as to the BIG "why?"

Maybe some of the responses here will help you, too.

I was a Christian 30 years and remained that way through a lot of struggles. People whose faith I felt was much stronger than mine told me they didn't know how I kept my faith.
But eventually it did fall. So the same risk exists for your friend. Not saying it will for sure. Each person is different and she may come out stronger in her faith. I'm just saying regardless of what she's telling you be prepared. I never told anyone what I was going through. I kept up the Christian front until I hit my breaking point. To others it probably seemed sudden, but to me it had been growing for a while.
Chances are your sticking with her is the best thing. And caring enough to continue trying. It may not resolve her questions, but I know, firsthand, what it's like to have Christians and Christian friends turn their back on you for struggling. That only adds fuel to their struggle.

 

[Lanolin]

I think it's more that she doesn't want people born who will live and die in sin and never repent. She sorrows for those that will forever be lost and will never reign with Christ because she feels that, since God is the creator of all, that whole scenario could have been avoided.

Her argument is that we would have never messed up if God had not given us the option to sin in the first place.

Personally, I believe God's ways aren't ours and while I can find myself wondering about those that are born to never know Him, I have faith that God knows what He's doing and His plan is best. But the whole "have faith" platitudes aren't helping my sister. She seems to need more.

shes got it all wrong and backwards and like I said she just want to stop people being born which is weird

nobody is born to never know Him! Everyone has the opportunity in this life to know Him. It s really up to your sister to stop the weird self pity and spread the gospel to those who need to hear it. If they dont, its really not on her nor is it on God.

God ALREADY sent Jesus. He already sent a way for us to be redeemed, what more do you want, everyone being born perfect? Nobody is born perfect...what fantasy land is your sister living in exactly.

children arent perfect, far from it. They poo, cry and vomit. They arent born already knowing how to do stuff. They make a mess. thats life and that is why everyone needs a redeemer so we can be born AGAIN.